Centered Mouth VS Side Mouth

[Polkadi~☆]

There's been a lot of discussion about all kinds of things when Sonic went from 2D to 3D.

But one topic always remains,

a centered mouth, or a side mouth?

 

Personally, I've always prefered a centered mouth, because it doesn't look so weird that way. Side mouth works great in 2D, not so much in 3D, where you get a constant look at the character's other angles. And it makes for a huge disconnect that leaves you with your feathers ruffled. Plus, with poor animation, the side with no mouth can be seen, while the mouth itself can be seen way off to the side, still moving. A good example is in Sonic Lost World, in the cutscene that Tails starts feeling Sonic trusts Eggman more, as Sonic gets inbetween Eggman and Tails. It looks weird, a cursed sight.

And other characters get a centered mouth, so why not make it consistent and let every character get it? Other Sonic games show that centered mouths are A-OK, like SA2 and Sonic Riders.

 

What do you think about this debate? Which do you prefer?

[Shadowlax]

Center all day , when its done well. It looks better and can give the characters a more animalistic bent

[Dee Dude]

Can’t say I’m too suprised lol, I do remember there being a mouth thread long ago before I was even a member here lol.

As for the discussion? I prefer side mouth hands down, it fits Sonic’s personality much more better and has overall used more for the older “cooler” characters Knuckles, Espio, Shadow, Rouge and Silver.

The center mouth that was prominent in Brawl and the M&S series never looked right on him, it made him look too awkward, which is why it’s better suited for younger “cuter” characters like Tails, Amy, Cream & Charmy with Blaze as an odd exception.

Honestly, I just want more unique and diverse mouths like Vector, Big, Avatar in general lol. 

[Osmium]

Why can't there be both? I like them both, and I think it would look cooler and more zany if Sonic used both, like for different emotions for different animations and emphasizing different things. The mouth could move from one side to the centre and then back or even to the other side.Then again, I'm thinking of 2D animation and not CGI where it may look more creepy. CGI ruins everything dawg. 

[Failinhearts]

The center mouth is fine, although I really do like the side mouth.

Sure, my detail-oriented brain does hurt thinking on the logic of how a side-mouth works in regards to let's say, two characters looking at somebody from opposite sides (Same way I always think about how Mickey Mouse Ear Syndrome works) but if we're talking just by looks, I just like the personality that comes from the side mouth.

[StaticMania]

Who cares which mouth the model has,  as long as it doesn't look weird (weird as in, it works with the camera angle)...it literally doesn't matter. 

[McGroose]

You know, it's kind of like you're picking the pros and cons of both. The side mouth looks better in game, but the title screen/box art always makes Sonic's smile look really odd. That grin he has just looks super strange. I'm especially referring to nearly everything from Sonic 4 and onward... especially Sonic 4.

That smile.... wtf is that?

[Diogenes]

Center mouth should be the default. The side mouth is fine if a character's smirking or seen from certain camera angles, but treating it as the default means you end up with some pretty unpleasant sights when it ends up on the "wrong" side.

If nothing else they should at least have a center mouth for shots like these instead of ending up with a gross cheekhole whenever he turns his head.

2 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

The center mouth that was prominent in Brawl and the M&S series never looked right on him, it made him look too baby-ish, which is why it’s better suited for younger “cuter” characters like Tails, Amy, Cream & Charmy with Blaze as an odd exception.

This sounds utterly bizarre to me. How does a character's mouth being in the place that a mouth actually belongs compared to wrenched off to the side make a character look "baby-ish"?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Sonic Boom.

By which I mean, either the tv show's way of Sonic having a stretchy enough mouth to look good from either the front or side depending on the camera angle, or RoL's method of swapping the head model depending on the angle.

I don't see any reason this needs to be a choice, when the ability to do both depending on the context has been around for plenty of time. 2D artwork has been doing this for years, and it's hardly a new complaint that the 3D Sonic models don't properly reflect the 2D designs' expressiveness.

[Dee Dude]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

This sounds utterly bizarre to me. How does a character's mouth being in the place that a mouth actually belongs compared to wrenched off to the side make a character look "baby-ish"?

Ok, baby-ish was the wrong choice of words, but Sonic having a side mouth fits the effect of him smirking reflecting on his cocky attitude.

When you see the center mouth solely added to younger characters like Amy and Charmy, this is ST’s way of defining the type of character based on mouth type, having that mouth type in a way makes Sonic look more “cutesy” in a way, even if it’s techinally biologically accurate.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

Ok, baby-ish was the wrong choice of words, but Sonic having a side mouth fits the effect of him smirking reflecting on his cocky attitude.

This much I can agree with, but a smirky side-mouth doesn't fit every situation. Sonic absolutely should smirk, but he doesn't need a permanent smirk. Especially not when it leads to gross cheekholes.

5 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

When you see the center mouth solely added to younger characters like Amy and Charmy, this is ST’s way of defining the type of character based on mouth type, having that mouth type in a way makes Sonic look more “cutesy” in a way, even if it’s techinally biologically accurate.

That seems to be an artificial effect, then. We had years of center mouth in the 3D games and I doubt anyone felt it made him look too young then; if they stopped the permanent side mouth for a few games the connection would vanish.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I think the side mouth is important for Sonic's character design, it helps emphasize his attitude to give him a smirk by default, but I consider it more a stylistic touch than a physical reality, so I would support center mouths for 3D models like in Sonic Adventure. Having the side mouth in 3D models causes it to feel too "literal" and less stylistic, and it can be super weird honestly. But I feel strongly about the side mouth sticking around in the 2D art (though there can be some flexibility if Sonic's facial expression calls for it). I'm with Dee Dude, permanent center mouths should be for younger, cuter characters.

[Tracker_TD]

Do both to suit the intended portrayal of the character in a given scene, innit. Ohshima was doing this as early as the first concept sketches for Sonic. 

I generally prefer side mouth stuff, but as Dio said it can look a bit weird depending on the scene, particularly in 3D. I think Smash Bros handled the side mouth in well, unless I'm drastically misremembering something. On the other hand... it's basically always a side mouth, which raises some questions about the balance of its use there. I still prefer it to something like ASRT though, which has one of the ugliest Sonic models I've seen. 

[GentlemanX]

I think both are preferable depending on the angle. Diogenes is absolutely right that those cutscenes can look awful if the mouth isn't adjusted for the situation. I think his center mouth in All-Stars racing looks pretty bad too though, so it's not like one is a universal solution. They just need to think about what would be best for each usage.

[Tracker_TD]

On the topic of what Dio posted, I threw these Before>After things together to illustrate the benefits of switching between the two:

ASRT:

Forces:

 

 

[superman43]

Aside from being a little funny in Sonic Adventure and Sonic 06 I believe that the centered mouth was good for Sonic. Everyone says he should look edgy, cocky. But, I still think that he is "just a guy who loves adventure". And he is more of a pure enthusiasm for adventures. Fully focused on stopping Eggman´s plot, whatever it is.

[blueblur98]

depends on the camera angle.

sometimes center mouth can be a complete abomination:

(image by twitter user @dapatmac)

and sometimes side mouth looks really odd:

so it really just decides to look good on either side when it wants to.

[superman43]

6 minutes ago, blueblur98 said:

depends on the camera angle.

sometimes center mouth can be a complete abomination:

 

whoooah  pure nightmare... 

we can all agree though:
scenes from the front - centered mouth

at least a bit from angle - smirk, mostly

[Strickerx5]

Like most things, I don't think it really matters as long as it's properly done. Both styles have been done well at one point or another so we know that they can both work. Though, with that being said I think I still prefer the side mouth approach as, most of the time, it's been spot on imo. There are only a few instances that I can remember of it making Sonic look weird to me. As opposed to the center mouth approach which has felt off to me in quite a number of places.

Honestly, I think the real solution here would just be a combination of the two. Keep switching out the face models like they do for Sonic's side mouth depending on the camera angle but also add a center mouth model for those few shots where the side approach just doesn't look right. I'm actually really surprised that this series doesn't utilize facial model swaps more often. It's such a common thing for cartoon styled games and 3D media. It's how you keep that natural 2D style in a 3D plane. Hell, Nintendo even does it with Mario and all 3 of his emotions.

[Sgt Nate V]

26 minutes ago, blueblur98 said:

[Polkadi~☆]

Hmm, and I was asking for just one side in particular, but I do agree with the thought of having a side mouth AND a center mouth.

If Sonic wants to go the realistic aspect, whatever. Probably just the center mouth, judging from previous approaches.

If it turns out they want to take Sonic the cartoony aspect (and it looks like they do), he needs a model that can do all kinds of expressions. Side mouth, center mouth, stretchy eyebrows, movable ears, jiggly nose, it really brings a 3D cartoon character to life. And if you take notice, though cutscenes of recent Sonic games, his expressions struggle because his model isn't built for it. Sonic's model in the Boom TV series is, and you can tell straight away.

A combination of a side mouth and a center mouth would be a step towards my dream of a really expressive high quality model of Sonic.

But if I could only get one, I'd go for a center mouth. Like Boom, not like ASRT, brrr...

[Scar]

The mouth should be on the side of the face where the camera is facing. It would require effort in cutscenes, but it works. Case in point is Unleashed, which has probably the best character animation of all the main series games imho. Obviously, if Sonic is looking directly at the camera the mouth should move closer to the centre, but not exactly in the centre. I feel it just looks better that way.

[Wittymations]

2D art, side works fine.

 

3D, it always looks really iffy. Ugly, honestly.

Sidenote: While I'm sure that the animators at Sonic Team have a lot better tools to work with, in SFM, the Gens models is a real fucker to animate with. You always gotta have scenes with Sonic, Shadow, Silver, Rouge, Espio, and probably a couple of others, at a side if they're gonna be speaking -- or doing any mouth movement at all. Amy has a center mouth, so she's a bit more flexible.

[Razule]

To be fair this would look way better if it was on the other side of his face. The worst shots with it are mostly the ones where they break the "same side as the camera" rule.

I don't get why people blame the whole concept of the side mouth, when the real problem is.. they do it wrong a lot.

This looks fine, right?

Snarky, assured, cool.

Obviously THIS is bad.

Doesn't make the top one bad.

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, Razule said:

To be fair this would look way better if it was on the other side of his face. The worst shots with it are mostly the ones where they break the "same side as the camera" rule.

Yes, but it ends up like this because he turns his head. For his mouth to be on the correct side in those pictures, it would have to be on the wrong side when his head is in a different position a second earlier or later. Either that, or have his mouth switch sides as he turns his head, which I can't imagine looks very good either.