If Sonic Forces has been commercially successful, what do you want Sega to improve in a follow up?

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

If we're getting another Forces-esque game anyway, how can that experience be better?

Well here's the thing, though; what's "Forces-esque"? There's no clear dividing line between a suggestion to improve on Forces and a suggestion that rejects Forces in favor of something else.

[Mad Convoy]

9 minutes ago, SaberX said:

I know where you getting at and sorry I have no interest to further expand this  "hey I like the game, stop disliking the game I like" X "hey I dislike the game, stop liking the game I dislike" with you.

I am not arguing any of those things.

My point is that its okay to dislike, like, feel ambivilant, etc. Sonic Forces, but its best to keep the positive and negative judgements on the game proper and not the people who like or dislike it, especially if you don't care about the fans. Or at least, if you are to judge fans or non-fans, have solid evidence to back up what you're saying or you'll be easily proven wrong.

I have no bad blood or petty spite with you and there is no ulterior motive going on here. Liking a game =/= Thinking its perfect, Forces improvement is worth discussing even if you don't think it can be improved, and what you said as well as what I said is on-topic (at least from my vantage point-- I'm not a mod or Gentleman X).

[GentlemanX]

27 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Then perhaps you could change the name of the thread? From what I get is that you simply asked what people would want to improve on Forces. I said nothing and I mean it.

I felt like the title made it clear it was building off the premise that Sonic Forces was successful and therefore was expected to be replicated in some way. Obviously, if something is unsuccessful like 06 or Rise of Lyric it doesn't receive a follow up and trying something largely different makes sense. I understand that you feel Forces is unsuccessful and there's nothing you want to see return despite it's commercial success. Would adding "commercially" to the title make it more clear?

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well here's the thing, though; what's "Forces-esque"? There's no clear dividing line between a suggestion to improve on Forces and a suggestion that rejects Forces in favor of something else.

I felt the first post outlined what aspects made up Forces and therefore were worth examining on how to achieve in a superior way. Again, rejecting Forces was not my intention because I tried to make it clear this would be how to improve the experience of a follow up to Forces based on it's commercial viability. Would bringing more attention to it's success from a financial stand point make it more clear as to what my intention for discussion is?

I'll gladly edit the title and OP so it's clearer what I wanted discussed, I just don't want to do it right now before I have nailed down what needs emphasizing.

[GentlemanX]

I don't want to limit to just folks that enjoyed the game though, I want people that didn't enjoy it but might if something was improved to also be able to discuss potential changes to be made.

[Blue Blood]

5 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

I don't want to limit to just folks that enjoyed the game though, I want people that didn't enjoy it but might if something was improved to also be able to discuss potential changes to be made.

Problem is, a lot of people don't think that they would enjoy it if changes were made. The entire game make up is wrong.

[GentlemanX]

Again, I get that. This probably isn't the topic for people who can't think of a way to make any aspect of Forces salvageable.

[Almar]

1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

Sega is a company, they do what works. Lost World and Rise of Lyric didn't sell - therefore we haven't gotten follow ups to those games. Mania and Forces have - therefore it makes sense to try and replicate that profitability again. If we're getting another Forces-esque game anyway, how can that experience be better? Some users actually have offered worthwhile advice, and that's what I was hoping to see.

Last time I checked, the Adventure games sold well for their time and console. Instead of just building on Sonic and Shadow's levels they did Sonic Heroes, Ow the Edge, and 06.

[Blue Blood]

15 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Again, I get that. This probably isn't the topic for people who can't think of a way to make any aspect of Forces salvageable.

It's worth hearing people say that they would want something wholly different. I even tried to to say what I want improving, but stopped myself because it was ultimately going to be a list of everything.

[Swing]

Everything: Better story, character interactions, dialogue, level designs, music, boss battles, gameplay and no gimmicks!  

[GentlemanX]

20 minutes ago, Almar said:

Last time I checked, the Adventure games sold well for their time and console. Instead of just building on Sonic and Shadow's levels they did Sonic Heroes, Ow the Edge, and 06.

One could argue each of those was building on Sonic and Shadow's levels. Heroes streamlined the experience into one gameplay style, Shadow took the speed portion of Heroes and added other features on top of it, and 06 is for all intents and purposes a Sonic Adventure title. They stuck with that formula until 06 didn't sell and then they rethought how things worked. They did their experiment with Lost World and Boom; it didn't work. They then went back to Unleashed/Colors/Generations' formula - and it seems to have paid off. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel here from a financial perspective.

23 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

It's worth hearing people say that they would want something wholly different. I even tried to to say what I want improving, but stopped myself because it was ultimately going to be a list of everything.

Certainly it's worth hearing from every perspective. But this topic is for a scenario where Sonic Team is making another game in some way like Forces and are trying to make it better. I don't think scraping Forces entirely discusses how to do that, that's for  a topic like "what new direction can Sonic Team go in after Forces?".

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Biggest problem with Forces was it's lack of focus.
Can't be an arcade style super simplistic fast Sonic action game, then add a large cast, epic premise on top of that.
The premise fits more with an slower RPG style game where events can sink in.
And then Classic Sonic throws in a third even more alien direction in the mix.
This really should have been 3 diffrent games, Classic Sonic and Classic nostalgia (So Sonic Mania that we already got) a fast paced arcade Modern Sonic game (So Generations 2 minus the nostalgia)

So what's left is Sonic Forces actual personal essence, the OC character stuff.
Really feels like the best way to use it is by making it a spinoff RPG or whatever on the 3ds or SVita.
People seem to have zero tolerance for weird premises or characters and stuff in the main games, spin offs are allowed to have more freedom in tone and direction.
So a Sonic Forces follow up I'd prefer is that they stick it to the side as a spin off game, just focus on the  OC character/ Sonic friends as army aspect of it and make it a slower 3d platformer with RPG elements.
And keep Classic Sonic/ the next main 3d Sonic game their own seperate things.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

The problem isn’t whether a story is serious or silly, it’s about how well it’s written. Captain fucking Underpants was a fun and engaging movie, even though it was clearly targeted towards grade-schoolers. Because no matter how goofy it got, there were actual stakes involved. Professor Poopypants was a fun villain with clear motivations. Sonic Forces being dark wasn’t the problem. It was the way it was conveyed and how unnatural it felt. So as many others have said, get some better writers. 

[Almar]

2 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Heroes streamlined the experience into one gameplay style

Putting in the Team Gimmick is hardly streamlinging it. Otherwise they would have just had you play as just the Speed characters and designed the game around them accordingly.

2 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Shadow took the speed portion of Heroes and added other features on top of it,

You mean guns, vehicles, and fetch quests.

2 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

and 06 is for all intents and purposes a Sonic Adventure title.

You mean with the extra playing styles that dragged it down? Yeah, I see what you mean.

[knuckles20]

-Make it an actual 3D game

-Cut down on classic pandering 

-Better use of other characters (i.e. playable)

 

[molul]

To Sega, about what can be done from Sonic Forces:

-Forget about mixing Classic and Modern Sonic in games and just make a 2.5D Classic-Sonic-ONLY game, if you can get the physics right.

-Limit the "custom character" thing for online competition modes only, not for the story.

-Use already existing and loved characters instead of custom avatars for the story mode.

-Make a fun game instead of a short ride where you can destroy static enemies just by running fast (you don't even need to dodge, or jump, or roll on them to kill them in Forces! Just pass through them!).

-Make a story with no cringe moments like Infinite's origin revelation.

-Work hard.

-Don't focus on some acceptable sales.

-Try to make a game that matters.

-Hire great developers if current team is not able to make great games for Sega's most important franchise.

-Accept that most Sonic games made by Sonic Team in the last 15 years have been average or mediocre.

-Remember when you enjoyed videogames.

-Remember when you liked Sonic.

-Remember when people loved Sonic.

 

Now, Sega, get out there and kick some butts!  

[rahkeesh]

The fundamentals of Forces aren't that different from Gens/Colors, so its kind of funny hearing so many "throw everything out" posts. Granted you might as well just start with Gens and maaaybe add some avatar stuff or real-time cutscene support, but you could just as easily put some actually decent levels and a few physics tweaks into forces engine and you'd basically have Gens again. I don't really see the point of catering much to haters of every single 3D Sonic if that is what this is about. Let Whitehead keep making 2D games for them.

Aside from the confusion with classic sonic, the main flop here was too little resources on experienced level design, and rehashing too many assets and boss elements for lack of time/resources to make new ones. In other words, gameplay would have been decent had they just actually invested in their product. The overall game framework was mostly fine and has worked much better in the past.

 

[molul]

In Forces, you could remove all the enemies in a stage and you wouldn't notice. In Generations at least, I remember them being an actual obstacle most of the time.

This scene, for instance, is a big WTF:

Nearly 16 enemies appear and the avatar kills all of them with the fire gun in a glimpse. What's the point of that? Make the player think he's actually doing something? Next time they could add a power-up "press Y button to wipe all enemies from the stage, without even having to move like in previous, boring games".

[Meta77]

The main thing to understand is one of the driving reasons for the success was avatar.  some may not care for him but avi in the story being every ones oc was q driving factor in the success.

1. Get rid of classic seriously wipe him off

2. More avatar options in creation. Shape size , etc

3. No tag stages

4. Modern sonic is fine but his stages need to be bigger.  and fucking test him. No more boosting a corner and flying into space, or his home attack outright sucking.

5. A Story that makes sense. Infinite could have been a great villian with his snide remarks to eggman but he seemed lackluster aside from him toying with avatar and his I'm not weak lines but those weren't that bad *aizen*

6. Stronger,  harder bosses

[molul]

It feels very wrong having to tell Sega the obvious one more time  Sega is not a startup. They just need to hire talented people that actually care about Sonic, and things will work.

[Meta77]

9 minutes ago, molul said:

In Forces, you could remove all the enemies in a stage and you wouldn't notice. In Generations at least, I remember them being an actual obstacle most of the time.

This scene, for instance, is a big WTF:

Nearly 16 enemies appear and the avatar kills all of them with the fire gun in a glimpse. What's the point of that? Make the player think he's actually doing something? Next time they could add a power-up "press Y button to wipe all enemies from the stage, without even having to move like in previous, boring games".

You could skip chunks of enemies in generations.

[Sonikko]

3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

You could skip chunks of enemies in generations.

Generations didn't have a gameplay style whose main focus was combat though.

The avatar makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

It focuses on combat, so it expands on attack moves and has a weapon, but the enemies die in one hit and none of them pose a threat whatsoever. It's just a shallow, bad thought out gameplay style that, again, has no purpose, makes no sense and most of the time just cares about faking "gameplay" instead of actually letting you play.

[Swing]

you know guys. All of your wishes and hopes can actually get true if Sega just improves in one thing. Only one simple thing they need to make finally a worthy Sonic game and that's is to starte care again for this series. Sega (at least in my opinion) has such a negative attitude against Sonic and his fans. I said this so many times here, but such loyal fans like you guys deserve something better from them. You guys actually help keeping Sega relevant her ein the west. And for that you should actually should get at least a good game for that or one were you can tell that they at least tried.

If I look at games like Mario, Crash Bandicoot, Zelda or even flopped games like Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts and Grabbed by the Ghoulies than it makes me even more sad and angry with how much lack of interest the go into making a new Sonic. At this point it really seems like they just make Sonic games because their is nothing else that sells here. Just throw in Sonic's face in it and those duds from the west will just eat it up. It really seems that Sega hs this kinda view against us. Which also explains why games like 06, Black Knight and Boom exists.

This is were I think Sega should improve the most. Just for the love of god, start to respect Sonic and his fans again. Those are the guys that kept you relevant for so many years, this is your flagship series, Sonic is one of the most popular characters ever! Is it to much to ask for a little bit of respect? If they start to respect Sonic again, than you will get your good stories, your good level designs and good modern gameplay. 

[Meta77]

39 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Generations didn't have a gameplay style whose main focus was combat though.

The avatar makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

It focuses on combat, so it expands on attack moves and has a weapon, but the enemies die in one hit and none of them pose a threat whatsoever. It's just a shallow, bad thought out gameplay style that, again, has no purpose, makes no sense and most of the time just cares about faking "gameplay" instead of actually letting you play.

It's Sega.  hoping they know a style to stick with is hard. Avatar was fun for many looking at sales not for combat but for customizing. What they should have done for avis stages would be to give enemies health so your leveling up your speed skills etc but that's asking to much of soj

[Jango]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

It's Sega.  hoping they know a style to stick with is hard. Avatar was fun for many looking at sales not for combat but for customizing. What they should have done for avis stages would be to give enemies health so your leveling up your speed skills etc but that's asking to much of soj

Dude, have you played Unleashed? :V

They have talent at ST, they just decided to leave this specific game to the interns. Everything in Forces has already being done before, but better. The fact that this game failed isn't amazing, it's amazing that this game failed doing the same stuff that already worked before it. 

The only new stuff in it, the create a character feature, barely worked at the game's favor, because a bunch of people didn't cared or outright hated it.

There's nothing to improve here. The improvements are already games that exist. Modern gameplay? Gens. Classic? Mania. Tag team? Heroes. Darker story? Adventure. Playable characters? Also Mania, the Adventures, Heroes, even 06. Better music and aesthetics? Colors, Mania.

Forces is so bad, that even past concepts already considered flawed by most, like the team gameplay in Heroes and the Classic gameplay in Gens, were done better in these games than in Forces. Forces was supposed to be the improvement, ya silly.

There's no excuse for this game to be like this, it's pure lack of effort and management. 

How to improve, huh? 3 words: Give. A. Fuck.

 

 

[Meta77]

5 minutes ago, Jango said:

Dude, have you played Unleashed? :V

They have talent at ST, they just decided to leave this specific game to the interns. Everything in Forces has already being done before, but better. The fact that this game failed isn't amazing, it's amazing that this game failed doing the same stuff that already worked before it. 

The only new stuff in it, the create a character feature, barely worked... And that's not saying much, because a bunch of people didn't cared or outright hated it.

There's nothing to improve here. The improvements are already games that exist. Modern gameplay? Gens. Classic? Mania. Tag team? Heroes. Darker story? Adventure. Playable characters? Also Mania, the Adventures, Heroes, even 06. Better music and aesthetics? Colors, Mania.

Forces is so bad, that even past concepts already considered flawed by most, like the team gameplay in Heroes and the Classic gameplay in Gens, were done better in these games than in Forces. Forces was supposed to be the improvement, ya silly.

There's no excuse for this game to be like this, it's pure lack of effort and management. 

How to improve, huh? 3 words: Give. A. Fuck.

 

 

I did play it. It's on my shelf at home. Thing is Sega doesn't want unleashed style. Was it that shit show from heck party. Sorry for wording where, they said they don't want to go back to previous games when moving forward. Hence their horrible commitment to a style. It's like a kid in a ice cream store trying a new flavor every day and liking one but never eating again just cause