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If Sonic Forces has been commercially successful, what do you want Sega to improve in a follow up?

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13 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I did play it. It's on my shelf at home. Thing is Sega doesn't want unleashed style. Was it that shit show from heck party. Sorry for wording where, they said they don't want to go back to previous games when moving forward. Hence their horrible commitment to a style. It's like a kid in a ice cream store trying a new flavor every day and liking one but never eating again just cause

Now you're just fucking with me. They said the exact opposite of it when Sonic Mania was announced. And in many other ocasions. They need to go back, see what worked, and improve. Taxman's crew got the message, they improved over what is by most people considered the BEST Sonic game EVER. Granted, to a bunch of people, it still didn't toped Sonic 3&K, but goddamn it, it got really, REALLY close.

 

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1 hour ago, Swing said:

you know guys. All of your wishes and hopes can actually get true if Sega just improves in one thing. Only one simple thing they need to make finally a worthy Sonic game and that's is to starte care again for this series. Sega (at least in my opinion) has such a negative attitude against Sonic and his fans. I said this so many times here, but such loyal fans like you guys deserve something better from them. You guys actually help keeping Sega relevant her ein the west. And for that you should actually should get at least a good game for that or one were you can tell that they at least tried.

If I look at games like Mario, Crash Bandicoot, Zelda or even flopped games like Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts and Grabbed by the Ghoulies than it makes me even more sad and angry with how much lack of interest the go into making a new Sonic. At this point it really seems like they just make Sonic games because their is nothing else that sells here. Just throw in Sonic's face in it and those duds from the west will just eat it up. It really seems that Sega hs this kinda view against us. Which also explains why games like 06, Black Knight and Boom exists.

This is were I think Sega should improve the most. Just for the love of god, start to respect Sonic and his fans again. Those are the guys that kept you relevant for so many years, this is your flagship series, Sonic is one of the most popular characters ever! Is it to much to ask for a little bit of respect? If they start to respect Sonic again, than you will get your good stories, your good level designs and good modern gameplay. 

Okay, but how do you know that any of the problems with Sega have to do with that?

All of the games you mentioned could be argued to have put effort into it though. Sonic Team desperately trying to make 06 work despite low staff, poor leadership, and lack of time,  Black Knight trying to improve on what Secret Rings was going for, and BRB/Sanzaru working to make the best games possible for Boom despite executive meddling and poor decisions working against them. And well, there's one Sonic game that particularly stands out as having a ton of effort put into it-- Sonic Xtreme. Yet it didn't turn out well-- in fact, it was eventually deemed unfit for release after a long, long series of bad decisions that caused the game to go through all kinds of changes. Working on Xtreme actually almost killed some of the leadership, because they were working so hard that their bodies became run down, so they got pneumonia with the best long term cure being to stop working on the project. In that context, I think not caring as much would have been better as the project would have gotten canned earlier, before a whole bunch of money and time got flushed down the toilet and people nearly died because of said project.

Now, my point isn't that effort doesn't matter, its more that effort can only do so much in the face of incompetent management, poor leadership, time constraints, budget constraints, and lord knows what other crap Sonic developers and people working at Sega have had to deal with over the years. No matter how much effort was put into Sonic 06 or Rise of Lyric, the end product would have turned out similarly to or at least still sucked like the 06 and RoL we got. Black Knight was meant to be the way it was from the start, and it seems like most of the developers don't regret anything about, so it probably would have turned out the same no matter what, not to mention that most of people's problems with the game were related to concepts instead of execution, so one could argue that Black Knight was doomed for mockery from the conceptual stage, no matter how well it was made.

Its not so much lack of respect, or not caring, or not putting effort into it, as it is bad decisions that are Sega's big problems. Sega at its worst is rather like Ed Wood-- its got a vision, but the vision doesn't make much sense (at best), it seems to always be bumbling about making stupid mistakes, and the company in general operates very bizarrely to the point where its awe-inspiring that its somehow managed to last as long as it has.

How to improve? Well, you can't fix stupid, but you can at least give stupid a nudge in the right direction with constructive criticism. Just telling people to care or put effort and expecting everything to get better just because of that is, at best, naive-- because, well, you can't fix stupid and effort isn't some kind of magical "get good" spell (or else the aforementioned Ed Wood would have been unironically amongst the greatest film-makers who ever lived, instead of being near universally agreed to unironically be amongst the worst film-makers who ever lived). If there's all kinds of other stuff troubling the developers and/or the publisher, the concept/timing itself is poor, or anything outside their control is causing issues, well, effort is only gonna get them so far. In the cases like Sonic Xtreme, effort can actually make things worse than they already were through all the nasty effects of overworking.

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12 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

How to improve? Well, you can't fix stupid, but you can at least give stupid a nudge in the right direction with constructive criticism.

People had. Everybody here had, over and over the years. One member here even sent a letter to SEGA/Sonic Team.

People aren't just shooting "git gud", we've made a lot of constructive criticism, in many ways, shape and form. They listen very arbitrarily...

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12 minutes ago, Jango said:

People had. Everybody here had, over and over the years. One member here even sent a letter to SEGA/Sonic Team.

People aren't just shooting "git gud", we've made a lot of constructive criticism, in many ways, shape and form. They listen very arbitrarily...

I was addressing Swing's post, and more generally, I was pointing out my frustrating with people thinking that "put in effort" or "care" is seriously the only thing that would have made Forces better. Even though its likely that little would have changed in the end product regardless of how much effort or care went into it.

Its great to make constructive criticism, but if people can do it in many ways, shapes, or forms, then the expectation is only natural that they can do it on the internet in a public forum too, especially when they have done exactly that fine for many years. I get feeling frustrated and wanting to vent, but venting is not constructive criticism and it can be very obnoxious when presented as such, not to mention that stuff tends to slip out that the venter doesn't truly believe or comes to regret later on.

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58 minutes ago, Jango said:

Now you're just fucking with me. They said the exact opposite of it when Sonic Mania was announced. And in many other ocasions. They need to go back, see what worked, and improve. Taxman's crew got the message, they improved over what is by most people considered the BEST Sonic game EVER. Granted, to a bunch of people, it still didn't toped Sonic 3&K, but goddamn it, it got really, REALLY close.

 

no fucks lol go back and watch the show. it was when they asked them about Sonic Adventure 3 and forgive me as im in my car but they said the reason they did not do a 3 is cause they did not want to build off the past of go back to old styles or something like that.

Just now, Meta77 said:

no fucks lol go back and watch the show. it was when they asked them about Sonic Adventure 3 and forgive me as im in my car but they said the reason they did not do a 3 is cause they did not want to build off the past of go back to old styles or something like that.

also, the best "2D" sonic game ever made. For me growing up in the 90s 3 and knuckles were by far the best. 3 more so for the MP. the best 3d game is juggled between Ad 1 and 2 with a side dish of the music from 06 and the excitment from empire city day stage *......literally just that stage, when that music drops man, if only it were a constant non stop quick reason boost stage that lasted 6 minutes lol*

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11 hours ago, Meta77 said:

no fucks lol go back and watch the show. it was when they asked them about Sonic Adventure 3 and forgive me as im in my car but they said the reason they did not do a 3 is cause they did not want to build off the past of go back to old styles or something like that.

Which is a big fat lie. Going back is basically ALL Sonic Team/SEGA's being doing, be it the recent past: bringing back the boost, the wisps; or the distant past: zones and badniks from the Genesis' games, Classic Sonic, chiptune music... I am not gonna link you any video or interview because I think you're not stupid.

Also, doing a sequel to a 15+ years old game =/= looking back at what worked and improve.

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Sonic Forces is very much not for me, but it seems to me that, if they had to iterate upon it, they could do worse than the following:

  • Remove Classic Sonic.  His gameplay doesn't need to be there, makes the whole less focussed, and Classic fans would prefer him to have his own games anyway.
  • Greater Avatar body customisation.  Different bodies per species or a range of bodies would be an improvement, rather than the species difference being just a head and a tail.
  • Combine offensive and locomotive Wispon capabilities.  You should probably just have a generic Wispon (maybe with customisable stats or something, it doesn't really matter), all Wisps available and abundant in-level, and the use of a Wisp for travel is in and of itself a weapon.
  • Either that, or multiple Wispons per Wisp with different interpretations of that Wisp's abilities, but that doesn't do anything to make enemies more meaningful.
  • Either beef up the 3D platforming, or divide it up so the Avatar is a platformer and Sonic is just flat-out a racer, which is where his gameplay has been going for a long time anyway.
  • Give Tag Team stages a substantial reason to exist other than the automated Double Boost.  Cutting the Double Boost entirely and replacing it with something genuinely dependent upon the two playstyles, like for instance a Wisp Boost which combines Wisp functionality with Boosting, would be considerably more interesting.
  • Make the game more playable and less scripted in general.

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Okay, here's my take on it, I hope people comment this post, I would like to get into more... "different opinions".

Things I liked and are fine to me:

1. Gorgeous graphics, beautiful zones, both realistic, futuristic and fantasy-like, and a good balance of details and simple design.

2. The Wisps being integrated in a better way into the gameplay, with the Wispon.

3. The attention on the characters, people argue that they were "just there", allow me to disagree: they organized a resistance when Sonic was not around, they take part to missions (off-screen), they are directly seen fighting (finally!) during the last battle against the illusions. I personally loved that, and it's more than what we got from them in 10 years.

4. A good line up of heroes and villains, although some villains got a bad treatment.

5. Different gameplays but all of them feel Sonic-y, and not the infamous alternate playstyles from the Adventure series, which, most of them were pointless or filler.

6. Great variety in music, and of course vocal tracks, my favorites.

7. A badass main villain in Infinite.

8. And obviously, the Avatar idea and customization, as I said before, it was easily the most fun part of the game along with the Classic stages.

Now, things I would improve or change:

1. Remove Classic Sonic, let's admit he was pointless in Forces and just a cash grab, there was no place for him in the story, he can be in the future Mania series just fine. I think we can all agree on that.

2. Focus on canon characters, the Avatar is so much fun but I'd prefer if they dedicated spin-offs to him/her. Not all of them need to be playable, only a couple.

3. Make a more complete storyline, not rushed endings please, look at what happened to poor Infinite... actually, we don't know, because that cutscene was very confusing.

4. Hire better level designers, the ones in Forces were almost all newbies and I don't know why. Give the next game a bigger budget than Forces. But I'm assuming they spent most of the time on working on the engine and graphics for the new generation, this should not be a problem for the next game, right?

5. More variety in boss battles, I'm tired of chase bosses, and also I need more villains to fight, Forces gave me 3 fights with Infinite, and 2 of them played the same.

6. More focus on 3D, exploration, platforming and obviously speed, but get rid of the boost, I'm sick of it and so are a lot of people. We want speed, but not spammable stages, not all of them.

7. Give us more interesting ideas for the stages, more gimmicks, level interactions, objects to play with, interesting layouts and game experiences, more diverse and complex than just spammable stages with the boost (for the 3D stages). Forces is just way too accessible and easy, and repetitive, that's why it wasn't fun to play.

Thoughts?

 

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While I don't think that this game has a lot of good stuff, I do think that there's one thing I actually want to see taken from Forces and improved in the future games. It's the outfit customization.

I really liked how there's a sizable amount of clothing you can put on your Avatar. For someone that's not creative at all, I liked looking through the option on how I'd dress my Avatar. It'd be cool to see the expanded cosmetic customization back in the future games (more options, give an option to change colour, etc.). Doesn't necessarily have to be for Avatar only - I'd be neat to be able to change Sonic's shoes or gloves or give him a scarf. Hell, maybe go even further, give the customization some meaning in terms of passive buffs or even active abilities (for example, if you give Sonic different kind of shoes, his speed is lower, but the acceleration is higher; if you give him a bracelet, he can do some kind of move that is completely optional, but can let you go on a different path, etc.). It's not necessarily an original idea, I saw it in one of (I think) Nibroc-Rock's renders some time ago (can't find it tho). Hell, if I remember correctly, Sonic Team had a blog post with UI mock-ups that actually suggested that they probably considered Avatar to have stats at one point. I'd like them to expand on that idea.

Other than that, yeah, a lot of stuff needs to be improved or just thrown away.

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If Forces was a success, the team should examine what made the game sell at all in the first place, and part of that was the promise of familiar characters getting involved again and an emphasis on storyline ala the Adventure games. Other factors included a playable Shadow for the first time in a decade, and the avatar, which while mixed in reception, was a selling point for the game as it was probably the only "new" feature the game offered and appealed to specific sects of the fandom. The problem with all of these selling points that got people invested enough for a purchase is that almost none of these features were executed well. The avatar was bare bones in every way, the story was almost Colors/Gens level of weak, and many characters who were promised to return did next to nothing of consequence, such as Chaos and the bulk of the resistance members. These are but a small sample of the games problems overall. The boost gameplay was plucked back out of the trash can and not an ounce of effort was put into making it better in any way, and Classic Sonic was hastily tossed in in an effort to appeal to retro fans, and it too was shallow, forced, and abysmal. Forces did very little right.  The avatar concept is nice and I'd be fine with its return if it is a side adventure and given some serious effort in terms of the customization itself, because what Forces offered was pittance. I would also like to see more effort in the storytelling once again, something Forces appeared to offer and had every opportunity to impress, but did not. Forces had a few nice ideas that were weakly executed, so I say cut the boost and classic stuff entirely and make something ambitious and exciting from the ground up, with true genuine passion like Sonic Adventure before it, yet hopefully even better. "Try" again. Forces is so lacking in the most basic of effort that it's just not even worth looking at regardless of whatever success it had. 

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6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Ok speaking of the avatar character here's a suggestion that is clearly in the "improve on Forces" category:

Fuck like 90% of the clothes and accessories. If you're going to give us a Sonic OC creator, focus on the physical attributes. Most Sonic characters barely wear clothes in the first place; we don't need 100 different gloves and shirts and hats as much as we need different tails and ears and hairstyles and the like. Have a modest but diverse selection of clothing, increase the effective number of options by letting players pick their own colors instead of only having 3 preselected versions, and then put the bulk of the time into making parts that could actually properly define a Sonic character.

Why not clothes too? I mean, if it's supposed to be a well done character creator, I would have more physical attributes but also tons of collectable parts to wear, so I say both. I'm more annoyed by the fact that they removed dragons and other species, in favor of bears that I'm not fond of.

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More than that, it's a character creator aimed at kids. They do tend to focus on clothing aesthetic options over body variety options, looking at the FCs they tend to produce. Not that they wouldn't appreciate more hair, ear, tail options, but clothing is just as important. 

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That's an issue in my eyes, since if I wanted to design a Sonic character, I'd want it to look official, not a cheapo knock-off.

The Forces avatars look like a different franchise that's badly imitating Sonic. What Diogenes is suggesting would make it at least in line with the main characters' design convenctions.

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16 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

That's an issue in my eyes, since if I wanted to design a Sonic character, I'd want it to look official, not a cheapo knock-off.

The Forces avatars look like a different franchise that's badly imitating Sonic. What Diogenes is suggesting would make it at least in line with the main characters' design convenctions.

This right here

Even if I didn't dislike the idea of custom characters in Sonic, I'd still not like that its basically just a game of dress up in Forces. Sonic characters have simple, designs with minimal clothing and accessories. Virtually all of the options in Forces just look like unholy clusterfucks that clash and come off as cheap and unprofessional. That's a killer for me, regardless of context.

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Again, posters here operate under the assumption that Sonic Team does just do what's safe and sells. Again, I point out that if that was so we would have just got Sonic Adventure absent his friends for the games from Heroes onward.

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5 hours ago, Almar said:

Again, posters here operate under the assumption that Sonic Team does just do what's safe and sells. Again, I point out that if that was so we would have just got Sonic Adventure absent his friends for the games from Heroes onward.

They might have experimented with different/new things after the Adventure games for a few years, but in the last decade starting with Unleashed, it's hard to deny that for the most part, they played it safe, sticking to the boost formula. There were occasional experiments (Lost World) but then they went back to the boost formula right after that.

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I like the idea of customizability in Sonic games, and while it perhaps wouldn't make sense for the Avatar to come back anytime soon outside of a spinoff, it'd be good to give Sonic and friends some customizability.

I don't mind clothes. Sonic Rivals didn't do so bad-- or at least, some of the more amusing clothing options like the cheesy tuxedo comprise the majority of people who actually mention it these days. And honestly, while I don't like all of Forces's clothing options, even the worst looking ones could be made to work somehow if you know what you're doing. If bad options can't be avoided, there should at least be mitigated somehow. Much as I like the idea of more anthro options, its one of those unfortunate development realities that each anthro would need its own custom models, and animations, not to mention that it takes a lot of extra work ensuring that all the clothes work on all the builds and character types (or alternatively, making custom unique clothes for every anthro, which isn't much easier). Forces gave every Avatar roughly the same build and it still seems to be pushing it with all the options. So maybe cut back on the clothes on a bit as well as the options, to avoid over-complication. At least if the game isn't a spinoff centered around the Avatar that would have the time and focus to give more options, which I strongly doubt the next Sonic game will be.

One thing I kinda miss from old video games is how, when you beat the game or 100% completed it, you got some overpowered move or option that gives you the power to fuck around with the game. Because why not? It won't let you cheese through the game because you're not getting it until the main campaign is finished or you've completed all or most of the game. Why not give it some extra replay value and allow the most dedicated, skilled players some extra freedom and power? The 3D game format wouldn't be good for a debug mode like Sonic 1 or anything like that, but something like the gems in Sonic 06? I'd do all the SOS missions in Forces for that kind of reward. And you can lump it into the aforementioned customization very easily-- special shoes, special sunglasses, etc.

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Forces is an odd game... I don't want to make an huge post analyzing every little detail, because I would spend hours on it, but I want to point out what I think is the most interesting thing in the whole game, at least for me.

Mortar Canyon.

Mortar Canyon is not good, it's a rushed level with a lot of problems, but it has the right approach to what 3D Sonic is supposed to be, the only problem is bad execution.

The level is linear, but also wide and fully explorable, with many alternative routes and secret areas; there are some platforming sections, and the angle of the terrain plays an important role in each jump in most of the level.

but the most important thing is that IT'S FULLY 3D, from start to finish.

Too bad that the whole level has an Homing Attack chain that starts at the beginning of it and ends near the goal, and you can play the full level by just spamming the HA button.

I think that, despite the fact that the level design is still flawed, Mortar Canyon should be the starting point from where they should improve the level design to make actual good levels. It's still missing a lot of stuff, such as moving platforms, badnik variety, and especially stage gimmicks, but it's a nice starting point.

Starting point, just a sketch of a level with a lot of problems; as it is, it's trash, I'm not saying it's good; it has the potential of becoming good if improved.

The level should also be a bit longer.

----------------

They should then improve the gameplay, because Sonic Forces controlled horribly. The acceleration of the character is incoherent and confusing, and occasionally the gameplay becomes on-rail and when the road branches, if you try to go into the secondary route, the game fights against you and tries to force you back into the main route against your will (but I think this happend in other boost games as well).

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In light of the brain drain at ST, I wonder if the current team is really capable of making something great, even with the proper budget. This thread is all about suggest what to do and what not to do, but at the end of the day, no amount of answers can replace good intuition. Like an employee with terrible judgment, ST seems to need constant direction from others, rarely taking initiative with positive results. So what do you do after so many years? Get a better employee. 

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https://twitter.com/ShayMay_/status/967514655290773504?ref_src=twcamp%5Ecopy%7Ctwsrc%5Eandroid%7Ctwgr%5Ecopy%7Ctwcon%5E7090%7Ctwterm%5E1

 

Shaymay, a Youtuber who makes come cool Sonic content, sheds an interesting light on what might have been going on during Sonic Forces's development.

 

Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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There is one thing I forgot to add when I saw this thread being created - Selling well is relative.

EA, just like SEGA, did announce that Mass Effect Andromeda sold pretty well. But can anybody deny the damage that ME:A brought to the franchise?

I think it is a clear equal to Forces.

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23 hours ago, Potada said:

https://twitter.com/ShayMay_/status/967514655290773504?ref_src=twcamp%5Ecopy%7Ctwsrc%5Eandroid%7Ctwgr%5Ecopy%7Ctwcon%5E7090%7Ctwterm%5E1

Shaymay, a Youtuber who makes come cool Sonic content, sheds an interesting light on what might have been going on during Sonic Forces's development.

Eh... I don't think that he's wrong about Forces having a troubled development due to conflicting ideas, but he's not really shedding light on anything here. From day 1 with the reveal of Classic Sonic, Forces has felt incredibly "phoned in". It's a made by an incompetent team on the order of executive meddling.

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Well, even if they WILL make a sequel, it would still lack content due to small production values. Because, let's be real, if something cheap makes enough money and sells enough copies, then why up the production values? 

And if a Forces 2 IS to come out, then...

-If you wanna bring Classic back, then tie him into the story/gameplay better. Like, Classic is an established gameplay mechanic in Forces, so maybe you can give it some, oh, I don't know, POLISH? 

-Now that I think about it, Sonic and the Secret Rings lacked in budget and time as well, and made one of the best decisions for a budget Sonic game.

True/False endings, and needing to play through missions to advance the story.

Like, even if you take the five level themes from Forces, and make, I dunno, 20 or so missions for each theme, ten needing to be played in order to advance the story, and two packs of 5 optional ones being needed to get ONE Chaos Emerald, then the game will be WAY, WAY longer.

-Bosses that actually exist. 

-Even if Forces wants to be linear, then it should take some things from, once again, Secret Rings. That game had a lot of stuff going on, actual LEVEL DESIGN instead of just "Straight lines with NOTNING on them". Also, maybe, just maybe Sega should remove the 2D sections from Modern's gameplay? We already have a 2D Sonic, we don't need another. Not to mention that Modern's 2D controls suck badly.

-Like, a bit of a lighter tone. I know that this goes for an "Edgy" approach, but, come on, character interactions/just friendly banter would be nice, it's a game about a bunch of talking animals for god's sake! Even the Adventure games, Black Knight and SNG had lighter moments to mix things up, so, maybe Forces should too? 

-No Infinite. Like, that guy was doomed from the very start, with his nonsensical backstory and May-Sue-like powers (Even Mephiles, heck, SOLARIS was less powerful than this guy. How come it be, that a FREAKING GOD OF THE SUN is weaker than some jackal?), and if we bring him back after his supposed death then we'll fuck up the continuity EVEN MORE. Not to mention that maybe it's time to make Eggman actually threatening. Like, certainly no Jim Cummings in a Robotnik suit, but at least something better than "LOL, BALDY NOSEHAIR" 

-Maybe a bit more balance for the avatar? Like, make the flamethrower a late-game unlockable, and give the Whip wispon at the start. 

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