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If Sonic Forces has been commercially successful, what do you want Sega to improve in a follow up?


GentlemanX

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13 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

-No Infinite. Like, that guy was doomed from the very start, with his nonsensical backstory and May-Sue-like powers (Even Mephiles, heck, SOLARIS was less powerful than this guy. How come it be, that a FREAKING GOD OF THE SUN is weaker than some jackal?),

That's assuming he still has the Phantom Ruby, which is unlikely. If he does appear in another game, he'll probably have gone back to swordfighting.

13 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

and if we bring him back after his supposed death then we'll fuck up the continuity EVEN MORE.

Did he actually die though? His and Eggman's fates are both kind of unclear. I sure hope he's okay, I thought he was really cool!

13 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

Not to mention that maybe it's time to make Eggman actually threatening. Like, certainly no Jim Cummings in a Robotnik suit, but at least something better than "LOL, BALDY NOSEHAIR"

I agree with this, but I don't see how giving Eggman a fourth subordinate makes him less threatening.

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2 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

-Now that I think about it, Sonic and the Secret Rings lacked in budget and time as well, and made one of the best decisions for a budget Sonic game.

True/False endings, and needing to play through missions to advance the story.

Like, even if you take the five level themes from Forces, and make, I dunno, 20 or so missions for each theme, ten needing to be played in order to advance the story, and two packs of 5 optional ones being needed to get ONE Chaos Emerald, then the game will be WAY, WAY longer.

It'd be longer, sure. But also more obnoxious. Even good Sonic games aren't typically very long from title screen to credits; rather than padding the game by forcing players through a bunch of annoying little missions, they should focus on making a game fun enough that players will want to replay it.

1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

Did he actually die though? His and Eggman's fates are both kind of unclear. I sure hope he's okay, I thought he was really cool!

Like a lot of things the game didn't actually bother to explain what the fuck happened to Infinite, but the way I interpret it, he never actually had a physical body in the main game. After he got beat by Shadow he let Eggman do some mad science on him and he essentially became an illusion himself. Fits well with his talk of being reborn and being in a test tube surrounded by test tubes fulla cubes and how he just glitches out and disappears when beaten like the other illusion villains. So basically if there was anything left of him after Sonic and the avatar beat him it got destroyed when the last phantom ruby did.

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9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 annoying little missions.

Well, you can make the missions fun, you know. SM64 and the original Rachet trilogy prove that.

It's more of a game design factor.

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 they should focus on making a game fun enough that players will want to replay it.

Classic Sonic comes from an era of game design like this. You wanna get that high score, so you replay the games to get it. 

The problem is that Sonic hasn't been like that for over a decade.

Not to mention that Forces kinda does that, by giving you rewards for replaying stages and daily missions. 

Yet people still think it's short as hell, just like they did with Generations.

 

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It'd be longer, sure. But also more obnoxious. Even good Sonic games aren't typically very long from title screen to credits; rather than padding the game by forcing players through a bunch of annoying little missions, they should focus on making a game fun enough that players will want to replay it.

It takes more than being fun to make me want to replay a game. I'm not one of those people who can play the same thing a million times and never get bored. There needs to be something that changes the experience and makes it different.

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Like a lot of things the game didn't actually bother to explain what the fuck happened to Infinite, but the way I interpret it, he never actually had a physical body in the main game. After he got beat by Shadow he let Eggman do some mad science on him and he essentially became an illusion himself. Fits well with his talk of being reborn and being in a test tube surrounded by test tubes fulla cubes and how he just glitches out and disappears when beaten like the other illusion villains. So basically if there was anything left of him after Sonic and the avatar beat him it got destroyed when the last phantom ruby did.

I don't like this interpretation, and I really hope it isn't canon. I prefer to believe that he's still working for Eggman.

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5 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

Well, you can make the missions fun, you know. SM64 and the original Rachet trilogy prove that.

For games like those, I don't think having multiple missions per level is really saving much in the way of resources. They've still got to create all that content, whether it means making big open worlds for the player to explore or weaving together multiple separate missions in a shared space or whatever. And because it's Sonic everything would have to be even bigger to account for his speed.

5 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

Not to mention that Forces kinda does that, by giving you rewards for replaying stages and daily missions.

What I'm saying is that they should design a game that's fun enough that it doesn't really need those kinds of outside incentives. Make the game fun enough in itself that the only reason you need for replaying it is that you want to experience it again and anything else is gravy. Missions and rankings and all that can add some longevity to a game, but they only really work if the player cares enough about the game in the first place, otherwise they're just going to be derided as filler and played only to scratch a completionist's itch.

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What I'm saying is that they should design a game that's fun enough that it doesn't really need those kinds of outside incentives.

Yeah, but the definition of "Fun" is kind of a personal thing.

For example, I can't stand Colors' platforming and wisps, but some love it to no end.

I absolutely adore Shadow's levels in 06 (The ones that don't use the buggy that is), but some people may not find them as fun.

And so on. 

I think the word you're looking for is "Good game design"

It's not necessarily fun, but it's good, and you MAY find it fun. 

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Well yeah but that's, like...everything about game design? Almost nothing is going to work for every player all of the time, I'm certainly not suggesting that there's some special formula that everybody will love, but it's not as if good games are just a matter of luck.

Like, Mania isn't a game for everyone, but it is very clearly tapping into something that a lot of players want. Sonic Team would be better off figuring out how to do that than just using cheap tactics to make their games longer.

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4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Like, Mania isn't a game for everyone, but it is very clearly tapping into something that a lot of players want. 

2D Classic Sonic because childhood. 

Because, really, why would people go so harsh on Crash's remaster, but completely adore Sonic's return? 


N O S T A L G I A  P A N D E R I N G 

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic Team would be better off figuring out how to do that than just using cheap tactics to make their games longer.

They kinda did. It was Generations. 

18 short as fuck levels for 60$. You could buy a game with WAY more content for the same price.

Heck, even the PORTABLE games were longer and offered way more levels.

Also, on the topic of portable games and missions: Colors DS did that, and guess what? It wasn't too bad!

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4 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Are you implying that nostalgia is the only reason the 2D classic formula is loved? I hope not, because that's very silly.

Not really the only reason Classic as a whole is loved, but definetly the reason why Mania is loved.

Like, really, it lacks a lot of elements from Sonic 3 or CD, and barely has any new zones. It feels like a cashgrab, masquerading as a Sonic 4 FOR THE SECOND TIME.

Not to mention that every single stage is just in-your-face references, that new players would not understand. 

Although, I assume that Sega finally embraced the fact that their IP is relevant only to a bunch of weird fanatics and people who played the first two games. First nostalgia pandering, then fancharacters. What's next? Dating sims? Choose-Your-Own-Adventure games? 
OFFICIAL FANFICTION? 
Oh, wait, that already exists. It's called "The Adventure games"

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1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

2D Classic Sonic because childhood.

No, dude. Solid game design. I'm not going to deny that there's nostalgic appeal, obviously, but that alone isn't responsible for Mania's success.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

Because, really, why would people go so harsh on Crash's remaster, but completely adore Sonic's return? 

I thought the Crash remakes were fairly well received?

4 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

They kinda did. It was Generations. 

18 short as fuck levels for 60$. You could buy a game with WAY more content for the same price.

Gens is basically the epitome of cheap tactics, though. It nostalgia baits harder than Mania and is padded with tons of missions in lieu of actually making a good game.

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, dude. Solid game design. 

Yep. 

Mania is WAY more automatic than Sonic 3 OR CD, and is kinda more in the Advance department when it comes to level design. It's so automatic, that one of the stages is literally just sliding down Oil Ocean's pipes.

Not to mention the AWFUL final boss, which can HIT SONIC IN HIS SUPER FORM, the god awful Special Stages that control worse than Sonic R, Knuckles having almost NO secret passageways and the fact that one of the bosses is just Puyo Puyo. That's like if Mario Oddysey's final boss was a Checkers minigame.

Has the classic fanbase fallen too deep? 

So deep that they began appreciating an okay at best classic game? 

Heck, SONIC CD was better! That Sonic game that literally had maze-like clusterfucks instead of normal stages and an AWFUL time travel system! 

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Your constant attempts to have the hottest of hot takes aren't actually conducive to meaningful discussion.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

Mania is WAY more automatic than Sonic 3 OR CD, and is kinda more in the Advance department when it comes to level design. It's so automatic, that one of the stages is literally just sliding down Oil Ocean's pipes.

Mania may lean a bit more on automation than the Genesis games, but it's still not a fraction as automated as basically anything else post-Genesis, and neither act of Oil Ocean is just about sliding down pipes. The game still has plenty of platforming and plenty of both freedom and reason to act during many "automated" sections.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

Not to mention the AWFUL final boss, which can HIT SONIC IN HIS SUPER FORM,

I don't even like the final boss but why is this of all things a problem? You're fighting a robot hyped up on the power of his own magic rock, it's entirely reasonable that it can damage you back. Nobody takes the Big Arm being able to straight up knock you out of your Super form as a grievous insult, so I don't know why it's a problem here.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

the god awful Special Stages that control worse than Sonic R,

The special stages actually control very well, for what they're trying to be. It just takes some time to learn how to properly control yourself, and once you do, you can win basically every time.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

Knuckles having almost NO secret passageways

Knuckles rarely had "secret" passageways to start with, he was usually forced to take different routes. But they weren't obligated to have those sort of Knuckles-only routes just because 3&K had them; the two games are structured differently, with 3&K contrasting the two and each having their own separate story while Mania puts all 3 characters on roughly equal ground. Both are valid options, neither is inherently a flaw.

Plus he gets a whole entire Act to himself that's specifically designed around his abilities and is better than what Sonic and Tails go through, so it's not like he's getting shortchanged here.

1 minute ago, A person, that exists said:

and the fact that one of the bosses is just Puyo Puyo. That's like if Mario Oddysey's final boss was a Checkers minigame.

Trying to compare a plain old world boss to a game's final boss is kinda tipping your hand that you're not really interested in an honest discussion. But regardless there's not actually a problem with the Mean Bean fight. It's fine for a game to shift genres for the occasional minigame so long as it's well designed, which this is, and if you're going to complain that Mean Bean isn't serious enough for a boss fight you oughta see some of the other bosses the series has had.

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As someone who likes the five mission structure in Sonic Adventure 2 and enjoyed most of the missions in Generations, I'd be up for going back through levels with different objectives in mind. Levels would have to be designed with that in mind though, and would obviously have to be bigger than what's seen in Forces.

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Hm...

What if the next Sonic game was a hybrid of sorts? Half 2D sprite-based Sonic Mania goodness, and the other half being 3D Sonic Forces stuff but with longer levels, better controls, etc. With a plot that continues where Forces left off, and by essence I suppose also continues Mania since Forces was connected to it in the first place.

I wonder if something like that would really please the most amount of people. If they took what worked from both games/types of games and combined them together, and polished up the areas in both that were lacking... I think it might just satisfy people from both camps. Not all, of course, but maybe enough to make a difference and a net positive in the end?

Or it could further divide everybody, which does seem to be inevitable with each Sonic game that gets released. I dunno.

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1 hour ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Hm...

What if the next Sonic game was a hybrid of sorts? Half 2D sprite-based Sonic Mania goodness, and the other half being 3D Sonic Forces stuff but with longer levels, better controls, etc. With a plot that continues where Forces left off, and by essence I suppose also continues Mania since Forces was connected to it in the first place.

I wonder if something like that would really please the most amount of people. If they took what worked from both games/types of games and combined them together, and polished up the areas in both that were lacking... I think it might just satisfy people from both camps. Not all, of course, but maybe enough to make a difference and a net positive in the end?

Or it could further divide everybody, which does seem to be inevitable with each Sonic game that gets released. I dunno.

Do you work for SEGA? This is the kind of backward logic and lack of understanding that lead to Forces in the first place.

Who wants to see another hybrid game as opposed to separate games that do their own thing well? I think that virtually everyone is fed up of seeing Classic Sonic shoehorned into the Modern games, and thinks that the Modern games games have too much 2D. I want to see another Mania-esque game, but I certainly don't want to have to trudge through some Forcrs-esque crap to find it. 

You're suggesting two entirely separate games be forced upon the player (and the developer). Anyone who likes one style of game but not the other will be left feeling unfulfilled or annoyed. It's exactly how you would make the situation worse.

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32 minutes ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Or it could further divide everybody, which does seem to be inevitable with each Sonic game that gets released. I dunno.

The reason this happens is because the games are built as hybrids - two completely different games glued together as though it somehow makes it better off than a single consistent one. Going as far as to divide a single game on artstyle on top of the existing gameplay rift isn't mending the fanbase, it's driving them further apart. If you want two extremes to like the same game, then you have to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle, not cut the whole fucking game in half and keep them from interacting at all.

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1 hour ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

Hm...

What if the next Sonic game was a hybrid of sorts? Half 2D sprite-based Sonic Mania goodness, and the other half being 3D Sonic Forces stuff but with longer levels, better controls, etc. With a plot that continues where Forces left off, and by essence I suppose also continues Mania since Forces was connected to it in the first place.

I wonder if something like that would really please the most amount of people. If they took what worked from both games/types of games and combined them together, and polished up the areas in both that were lacking... I think it might just satisfy people from both camps. Not all, of course, but maybe enough to make a difference and a net positive in the end?

Or it could further divide everybody, which does seem to be inevitable with each Sonic game that gets released. I dunno.

I won't yell at you because I DO see where you're coming from! :) Generations did this and was moderately successful.

But if I could go back and remove Modern Sonic's 9 levels and 4 bosses, and give that space to Classic Sonic? I would. And a lot of 3D fans would jump at the chance to take Classic Sonic's 9 levels and 2 bosses and give that space to Modern.

Mania is the right direction. Now they just need to take Classic Sonic out of the 3D games and figure out a good route for 3D.

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8 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Sure thing. Thats why we have S4 episodes even nowadays, right? 

Would, had the 2nd one been a proper fix-up for the flaws of the original.

Like, really, S4E2 is the most disappointing Sonic sequel, and that's comparing it to SA2 and Sonic Rush Adventure.

10 minutes ago, SaberX said:

bad level design

Was a visit card of Dimps honestly.

Just look at Sonic Advance. That game had long hallways worth of nothing.

Sonic Rush had ONE PATH and that's it.

Rush Adventure has the same crap, but worse.

So, yeah, maybe Dimps wasn't that good of a dev team, was it? The only game they made with GOOD level design is Sonic Pocket Adventure.

13 minutes ago, SaberX said:

heavy criticism

>Green Eyes

>Linear levels (Despite Dimps doing this shit since Advance)

>Homing attack

>Game being a rehash of Sonic 1/2 (Just like Advance was)

Yeah, that's game ruining flaws, alright.

 

And, you know, I would shut up, had the fans openly hated Advance and Rush for the same flaws, but nope, "BEST SAWNIK GAM EVER".

Also, isn't an 81% on Metacritic kind of an "Okay reception"? 

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Mania's good, but what if Whitehead and co created a Sonic Advance 4 with the same gameplay?

The fans would just discard it as an eh- experience.

But, oh shit, waddup, here comes dat Classic Sonic and now everyone is literally praising Mania at the top of their lounges.

That's kinda suspicious...

Like, I have nothing against nostalgia, but Mania's hype isn't any better.

Like, game critics who said that Sonic (Including the classic games) was not really all that good praising Mania is kinda suspicious...

Honestly, I'm sick of this shit. This argument is going nowhere.

Okay, I agree, Mania is perfect, and Sonic has too many friends, and Sonic Adventure 2 is the worst game in the series, blah-blah-blah...

Let's get back on track. The Forces sequel.

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2 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Its all up to them to take the criticism/feedback seriously...or not.

Yet they still keep making the Boom TV show and games.

I have some concerns about them taking criticism at all.

Like, Forces made up it's budget, so why even bother?

Come on, pal, it's SEGA. 

The last time they made something good themselves was in 1994. 

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3 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Which bring us back(again) to Mania. What made them not use Dimps again? Or try to replicate the old formula by themselves? What made them really think about this and hire someone who is experienced in the matter? 

I'm not against this being a Mania-only thing. And not against Whitehead for that matter.

I just hope that if Sega will decide to bring more of the fans to make their games, they wouldn't bring Egoraptor or any other "LOL, MEME" fan of the series.

Because, who knows, this might have an even worse impact on the series.

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