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Sonic is in my view better than Mario games

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I'm different to most in that I take issues with the fundamental gameplay of Mario on top of things like presentation and personality. 

Like, the three mainline Mario games I've really liked are Sunshine, NSMBWii and 3D World. The others have either not been that engaging to play (Odyssey) or I've outright disliked playing (SMB, SMB3, SM64, Galaxy, NSMB). So even if someone made me choose which series to play from gameplay alone, I'm more likely to have a good time with a Sonic game than a Mario game. 

I mainly prefer playing Mario spinoffs than main Mario games because they go more like Sonic and showcase fun personality, which makes the recent direction of some of those spinoff lines all the more disappointing. 

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3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Every time this topic comes up people will moan about Mario being objectively worse as a character just because he isn't a wise-cracking jackass like Sonic.  A lot of his characteristics may be "typical" for a platformer hero, but that doesn't make them any less characteristics.

Would someone with "no personality" excitedly yell "yahoo!" when they catapault up some stairs with their acrobatic abilities, or face adventure and danger with an optimistic smile?

Would a "blank slate" go out of their way to help people they've just met simply because they're in need and at the mercy of a powerful injustice?

Would someone who "is just an extension of the player" have such a documented interest in sports, good food, and parties, or take a nap or dance to nearby music of their own accord when left alone by the player?

 

Like goddamn, play a Mario game and pay attention instead of expecting to have the information the world and characters provide spoon-fed to you.  You don't need a character to have a million lines of mediocrely-written dialogue to learn what kind of person they are.

Mario Odyssey goes above and beyond in these aspects, but they've always been there to some degree.

I don't entirely disagree with you as the Mario games are no doubt great but Sonic and his worlds characterisations have not at all been spoon fed. Its been an evolution of over 25 years. Its grown , I'm not saying Mario's universe hasn't grown but it pails in comparison to the Sonic universe. 

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4 minutes ago, Eurisko said:

I don't entirely disagree with you as the Mario games are no doubt great but Sonic and his worlds characterisations have not at all been spoon fed. Its been an evolution of over 25 years. Its grown , I'm not saying Mario's universe hasn't grown but it pails in comparison to the Sonic universe. 

I feel it's kinda like comparing an all-you-can-eat buffet to a small bistro with just one set menu.  Sonic has done all sortsa shit and quantity-wise there is a lot of lore, but if you take it as a whole, you have to ignore SO much garbage.  If you fill your plate up with everything the franchise has to offer, you'll end up with a total mess, and it's why the fanbase is so divided on which of the many different lore things Sonic has done is the most worthwhile.

Meanwhile Mario usually tries a different angle with each of his main releases that can only be taken individually, but their quality is pretty fine-tuned.

Some people prefer the quantity, and that's fine, but I feel it's misguided to say the quantity makes it objectively better.  People both outside and inside the fanbase actively make fun of all the government conspiracy shit in SA2, one of the games that most fans would feel is a perfect example of Sonic's "superior" lore.

(For the record, I like SA2's plot, but I can see how it looks from their perspective).

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1 minute ago, JezMM said:

I feel it's kinda like comparing an all-you-can-eat buffet to a small bistro with just one set menu.  Sonic has done all sortsa shit and quantity-wise there is a lot of lore, but if you take it as a whole, you have to ignore SO much garbage.  If you fill your plate up with everything the franchise has to offer, you'll end up with a total mess, and it's why the fanbase is so divided on which of the many different lore things Sonic has done is the most worthwhile.

Meanwhile Mario usually tries a different angle with each of his main releases that can only be taken individually, but their quality is pretty fine-tuned.

Some people prefer the quantity, and that's fine, but I feel it's misguided to say the quantity makes it objectively better.  People both outside and inside the fanbase actively make fun of all the government conspiracy shit in SA2, one of the games that most fans would feel is a perfect example of Sonic's "superior" lore.

(For the record, I like SA2's plot, but I can see how it looks from their perspective).

Thats a brilliant analogy and makes a ton of sense. Mario does have amazing quality as i said earlier and yes Sonic does have a lot of garbage even in the character department. Big and cream get on my nerves more that any other. You make a good point but I'd like to grab everything on that buffet and eat the stuff I like and have the option than the bistro set menu with less choice. Its all just personal preference in the end I guess.

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1 hour ago, SaberX said:

If by having an actual characterization includes a terrible one, then I rather prefer to not have one. Thats the prime example of why Mario is better than Sonic on the matter(pretty much like molul said).

Sonic only started having bad characterization when Pontaff came on board.

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51 minutes ago, Eurisko said:

 For example , why hasn't there been a memorable cartoon/anime/TV series in the last 15 years at least about Mario? because theres nothing from the games to elaborate on. 

Most of the Sonic Cartoons don't take from the games at all though, lol. They make stuff up instead.

The reason there's no Mario cartoon is because Nintendo doesn't want anyone just producing low quality content with Mario's face on it, so they're really protective of the IP. There's a lot you can do with Mario's world as the games have already shown.

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I will try to not make a long story about why Sonic is better than Mario, but it may be difficult.

First things first, since the first game, there is something charming with Sonic. Maybe because he´s a hedgehog and not human. 

Next one - Mario as a character started with rescuing a princess from some creature. Sonic started as an enthusiastic and adventure-seeking hedgehog that was determined to rescue the world spoilt by Dr.Eggman

Then, Sonic has and always had a much better artstyle than Mario. Dr.Eggman is also far finer than antagonists from Mario series. And than additional characters introduced in sequels were well-received and remained popular ever since. That´s the reason why SEGA capitalized on Knuckles for the next mainline games (whilst his role really fitted for one-time plot), as well as Amy and Metal Sonic.

Music in Sonic games have been always high point, for how surreal the zones could be, you could always bet it had very nice melody entitled to it. 

Overall, as said, Sonic is a far different character than Mario. And the downfall came with the 3D, because Sonic (I don´t say Sonic doesn´t work in 3D !) is and always should have been momentum-based platformer with speed associate. That´s why auto-scrollers weren´t generally used for Sonic, it just doesn´t suit him.

 

Now, time for something else. Despite Sonic having clearly low quality games as the time moved on and I will admit it, I still prefer any mainline Sonic game over Mario game, because Mario game will make me bored. 

If SEGA wants to make a good 3D Sonic game than:
1) throw-off majority of boostpads and those that are kept should be in places where they are really needed or destroy all

2) make a real Sonic physics and make the Boost if not vanish at least diminish it to the point where actually it would make a natural sense.

3) take all stages from all 3D Sonic outings and brainstorm about what enhanced level design and what diminished. One of the high points should be Seaside Hill from Sonic Generations, but also others that include real 3D platforming.

4) not touching Classic Sonic´s universe once again for some motherf.....g plot about virtual reality, time-travelling and all other possible s..t that could again violently drive Sonic further off the tracks (just to say, Sonic stands on the track with one side and partially only for now)... therefore another brainstorming should be about a sensible story without those unnecessary plots that are reused far too often and introduce a more developed plot that could enrich personalities of the characters in it.

What I imagine is: Sonic game akin to Generations, but with no boost, no stretched out areas with quickstepping, with some actual challenge added to the platforming (for example something like Sonic 3&K Sandopolis rising sands in 3D. Story should happen in Sonic's world, so no space, no whatever. And should be akin to Colors (in points like Eggman's plot and so) but should not include cringy jokes. Eggman constantly mocked by Sonic is what everyone finds lame.

I don't mind recurring zones that much, if they are done in a good fashion and maybe giving a different look upon locations. 

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54 minutes ago, Josh said:

Most of the Sonic Cartoons don't take from the games at all though, lol. They make stuff up instead.

The reason there's no Mario cartoon is because Nintendo doesn't want anyone just producing low quality content with Mario's face on it, so they're really protective of the IP. There's a lot you can do with Mario's world as the games have already shown.

I feel like it might be relevant to refer here to the failed Archie Mario comic pitch.  Clearly Archie felt there was potential material there; Nintendo simply wasn't interested in pursuing that kind of expansion of its character IP at the time.

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2 hours ago, Eurisko said:

For example , why hasn't there been a memorable cartoon/anime/TV series in the last 15 years at least about Mario? because theres nothing from the games to elaborate on.

Yes, because AoStH, SatAM, Underground, and Sonic Boom borrow so much from the games.

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If it comes to character, than yes, Sonic is the better one. But when it comes to the overall better quality: World, character designs, games, respect to your audience, fun, love, care than will Mario win.  

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1 hour ago, Splash the Otter said:

Sonic only started having bad characterization when Pontaff came on board.

That's very blatantly untrue. It's been a thing long before they came on board. You can easily point out any inconsistencies with characterization in every game from Sa2 onward.

Like Tails in SA2 despite being willing to hop into action (which is the only thing that matters to people) has little to no personality in that game and somehow goes through a pretty similar development to the prior game.

Amy's SA1 development practically going away from Sonic Heroes onward.

Sonic being obnoxiously excitable in ShTh to having barely any real show of emotion in Nex Gen.

Among other examples.

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Eh I'd have to say Mario games tend to be better overall. Way too many good games I can go back to and have a blast, unlike Sonic where I think a handful or two at most I'd ever play again. I can go it alone or have an awesome clusterfuck of an adventure with friends while playing with Mario and pals. They're just so charming and fun to be around. Mario being the sweet heart Santa Claus like figure who just oozes that child like wonder feeling of his jolliness. Luigi being even better with his adorkable cowardly nature that is both funny, and heart warming when he'll throw away his fears if Mario is in deep trouble. A likable coward where cowardice helps his character *Cough* Tails *Cough* rather than being a detriment. It's a weakness we can enjoy for many reasons.

The others have more personality in the RPG titles and can be a lot of fun. Especially bowser. Bowser is great. He can be a complete goof ball and threat when he wants to *Cough* Eggman *Cough*, or he could go balls to the walls with how awesome he is or how he's a good father XD. Peach can be fun to....fricken Peach who usually sucks. It's a real shame the recent RPG's have played things WAAAAY too safe.

When Sonic is at his very best with himself and his universe, I would be inclined to like him more. But with how much of a bat shit, inconsistent, all over the place universe he has, it's hard to fall for characters. One moment there this way, and the very next moment they're a completely different character. While of course I blame modern writing lately, but Sonic has always had inconsistent writing with who he is. I doubt even he knows who he is. Heck none of them probably know who they are at this rate. They can change at the snap of a finger.

Mario just gives a more feeling that is gentle and just fun to follow with his positivity. His nice guy upbeat self may be stale today, but he was there when I was younger, and is like a childhood friend who always was looking forward. Always out for the next awesome game. Sonic on the other hand I feel nothing but anxious about. I always have to fear "What will he fuck up this time" "How bad is he gonna suck?" "How bad and useless will the cast be this time" "Are the jokes gonna get cringier?"

I don't even have much excitement for Sonic games no more because of how there is 0 quality control or assurance it's gonna be any good. Mania was really the first time in years I was sure at least from a gameplay standpoint, it would be fantastic. And it was. But anything that tries to even have a narrative, even a simple one, I fear is gonna be bad, juvenile, cringy, or be The Sonic Show featuring his worthless friends.

Now if only Sonic could get the same loving support that Arc Systems gave FighterZ. I never felt so giddy and upbeat in a long time as a fan when all the characters come together. Even if some translations need work. So much fun and love, rather than just soulless husks spouting trite.

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They don’t compare when it comes to design philosophy. Quality can definitely be argued but Sonic’s gameplay is all about speed and Mario is more traditional. 

Its true that Mario games are more consistent but with that comes repetitive games Nintendo has shot out multiple times for either cheap-sake or nostalgia(the new super Mario bros is a perfect example of this). Also...Mario never had a Sonic 06 or Shadow handed onto him in his later years.

Nintendo made sure that nothing like that would happen to them in the future.

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3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

They don’t compare when it comes to design philosophy. Quality can definitely be argued but Sonic’s gameplay is all about speed and Mario is more traditional. 

Its true that Mario games are more consistent but with that comes repetitive games Nintendo has shot out multiple times for either cheap-sake or nostalgia(the new super Mario bros is a perfect example of this). Also...Mario never had a Sonic 06 or Shadow handed onto him in his later years.

Nintendo made sure that nothing like that would happen to them in the future.

At least Nintendo delivered a new and updated and well done 2D game for its mascot much sooner than Sega xD

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7 minutes ago, molul said:

At least Nintendo delivered a new and updated and well done 2D game for its mascot much sooner than Sega xD

HA!! Yes they did, and Sega got fans to make Mania!! 

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10 hours ago, Eurisko said:

HA!! Yes they did, and Sega got fans to make Mania!! 

Which is actually cooler, but my point is that Sega needed 8 more years to deliver a great back-to-basics game :)

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19 minutes ago, molul said:

Which is actually cooler, but my point is that Sega needed 8 more years to deliver a great back-to-basics game :)

Thats true , but out of the two Sonic fans arguably got the better game.

EDIT: Actually having thought about this Sonic fans didn't get the better retro game first at all. Sonic 4 EP I was dreadful.

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The least good Mario games don't change up their formulas enough (New Super Mario Bros franchise) whereas the worst Sonic games change things up too much (Storybook games, Sonic Boom). The difference is that even the New Super Mario games are supremely playable, with fluid controls and tons of polish to balance out the unoriginality of using the same level tropes and enemies every game. There had not been a single GREAT controlling Sonic game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles up until Mania's release; no 3D Sonic game has ever approached the playability of Mario 64 or Odyssey. Mario at his worst is still consistently better than Sonic at his average.

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I'd honestly prefer the variety from Sonic to the stagnation from Mario. Even if Mario games are high quality, it doesn't change the feeling that I'm playing the same game multiple times. Hell they pretty much released the same game multiple times: New Super Mario Bros., New Super Mario Bros. 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, New Super Mario Bros U, New Super Luigi U. The only reason I got Super Mario 3D World was because Peach was an actual playable character as opposed to being the damsel in destress for the 1000th time.

Why even have new games for Sonic if all they're gonna do is ripoff the classic era to the point that they might as well do nothing except rerelease Sonic 1 every year.

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I can see Mario games are well-designed and all, but I've just never had any fun with them. I don't like the environments, the characters, nor the gameplay. I just can't find myself invested in what's going on in any of the games barring spin-offs like Mario Kart, and even then I find those pretty boring rather quickly. I don't really care if the Sonic games have flaws. I rarely find myself bored with the games because I'm still invested in the characters, the worlds, the art, the stories, the sense of speed and action, and I truly believe the majority of Sonic games have great gameplay as well, though admittedly far from perfect in some cases. Without investment, I just cannot bring myself to have any fun with nor care whatsoever about Mario. I pick franchises and games based on the entire scope of what it offers, and Sonic just appeals to me in so many ways where Mario does not. 

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