Jump to content
Awoo.

Sonic is in my view better than Mario games


Sokker

Recommended Posts

22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Jesus christ. You don't get to judge the series based on what it could've been and ignore what it actually is.

Okay, first of all I'm not judging the series by what it "could've been". I'm judging it by what it can (and should) be. Second, none of the problems Sonic has today are an inherent flaw of the series. They were caused by Sonic Team and Sega being incompetent and mishandling it for over a decade now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Okay, first of all I'm not judging the series by what it "could've been". I'm judging it by what it can (and should) be.

Same thing.

3 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Second, none of the problems Sonic has today are an inherent flaw of the series. They were caused by Sonic Team and Sega being incompetent and mishandling it for over a decade now.

So? That incompetence and mishandling are still responsible for making the series what it is. We all wish things were better, but again, you don't get to retreat into some imagined and idealized version of the series. The series is what it is, not what you wish it was.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Okay, first of all I'm not judging the series by what it "could've been". I'm judging it by what it can (and should) be.

Just because you can change some words in a sentence doesn't change its meaning. "I am going to the grocery store" and "I am going to the supermarket" are both the same fucking sentence with the same fucking definition.

Quote

Second, none of the problems Sonic has today are an inherent flaw of the series. They were caused by Sonic Team and Sega being incompetent and mishandling it for over a decade now.

What you think the series should be doesn't actually do a single thing to change what the series actually is.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Okay, first of all I'm not judging the series by what it "could've been". I'm judging it by what it can (and should) be. Second, none of the problems Sonic has today are an inherent flaw of the series. They were caused by Sonic Team and Sega being incompetent and mishandling it for over a decade now.

I just don't get this. If I buy a cheap chinese gamepad and it feels really bad in my hands and buttons are quickly broken, I wouldn't say it's good because "with good materials it would be awesome".

I'm sorry, but your point is so wrong :(

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Sean said:

I am going to the grocery store" and "I am going to the supermarket" are both the same fucking sentence with the same fucking definition

Well.. no, I'm pretty sure I would use those words in different contexts, they're similar but not quite the same

Okay:

What it could have been implies the chance for it not be what it is has passed.

What it can/should be means there's still a chance.

But ultimately what it CAN be doesn't mean anything if that never comes to pass and has a low chance of happening, and judging it by that is unwise.

39 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

They were caused by Sonic Team and Sega being incompetent and mishandling it for over a decade now.

Sonic is still their product, and the results will be the sum of what they deliver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Razule said:

Well.. no, I'm pretty sure I would use those words in different contexts, they're similar but not quite the same

Okay:

What it could have been implies the chance for it not be what it is has passed.

What it can/should be means there's still a chance.

But ultimately what it CAN be doesn't mean anything if that never comes to pass and has a low chance of happening, and judging it by that is unwise.

Entirely divorced of the current conversation's context, sure. But when the second statement is used to pass judgment on the series in its current state, it's as equally worthless as the first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Entirely divorced of the current conversation's context, sure. But when the second statement is used to pass judgment on the series in its current state, it's as equally worthless as the first.

Indeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something that came to mind when I was reading this topic. For all its attempts at world building and character writing, no Sonic game has ever hit me on the same emotional level as a Mario game. The World of Nothing in Super Paper Mario sent chills down my spine, and there were two specific points in Mario Odyssey that had me crying tears of joy as I played through them.

Mario games are fundamentally about a plumber who rescues a princess. Sonic games are about an anthro character stopping an evil genius. Neither has more latent potential than the other, but the Mario games have done a much better job of remaining recognizable while still innovating in their gameplay and story design.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After what I see here, I cannot resist, but say, it´s impossible to judge whether Mario and Sonic is better. You can say that one is better than another, but still it is mostly your personal preference.

It´s like saying whether apple or pear is better. Their evolution is very similar (as Mario and Sonic are the same genre, platformer), but they look different, taste different and MORE IMPORTANTLY not everyone likes both. And that´s it. 

There is nothing more that could be said at this moment, because most have said that Sonic is anthro, Mario is better at gameplay but that´s not all. Yes, as said right above, it´s like you don´t want anyone to like Sonic and that´s strange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

You know, I'm starting to feel like I'm not allowed to prefer Sonic over Mario.

You're allowed to like whatever you want, but bad reasoning is still bad reasoning.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're allowed to like whatever you want, but bad reasoning is still bad reasoning.

What does that even mean ? ... Oh, nevermind.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

You know, I'm starting to feel like I'm not allowed to prefer Sonic over Mario.

The arguments people have been using to say why Mario is lesser than Sonic just haven't been very good.

Anyone who has simply said they preferred Sonic games to Mario games haven't been countered because that's purely preference, not a shallow argument to make Mario seem worse.

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

You know, I'm starting to feel like I'm not allowed to prefer Sonic over Mario.

You're more than allowed to prefer the Sonic series to Mario, because that is pure opinion. But am I incorrect in assuming you are arguing that the Sonic series is BETTER than the Mario series, as this thread title suggests? If you are intending to say as much, you have not given adequate evidence to make your point. As such, your opinion on the matter has become harder and harder to take seriously, especially since your focus has been on "potential" rather than reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're allowed to like whatever you want, but bad reasoning is still bad reasoning.

How is it bad reasoning? All I'm trying to say is that Sonic's current situation is something he can recover from. He isn't "ruined forever" or anything like that. It's still possible for him to be objectively better than Mario, and I refuse to give up hope that it will happen some day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

How is it bad reasoning? All I'm trying to say is that Sonic's current situation is something he can recover from. He isn't "ruined forever" or anything like that. It's still possible for him to be objectively better than Mario, and I refuse to give up hope that it will happen some day.

Nothing is impossible, but you have not given any reason to believe that Sonic COULD be objectively better. Almost all of Sonic recent history has been full of missteps, rushed development schedules, poor critical reception, bad character writing, dropped plot-lines, faulty controls, and lack of support post-release. Even if Sonic followed the path of least resistance, scrapping 3D game development entirely and giving everything up to the Sonic Mania team, you'd still be left with a franchise that is only recognized for its 2D pixel games that live in the past rather than innovate. It takes a lot more than Sonic Mania 2 being better than New Super Mario Bros Switch for the Sonic series to overtake Mario.

Having faith in the Sonic series is no argument. Faith is just the opposite of critical thought and reasoning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Legendary Emerald said:

Nothing is impossible, but you have not given any reason to believe that Sonic COULD be objectively better. Almost all of Sonic recent history has been full of missteps, rushed development schedules, poor critical reception, bad character writing, dropped plot-lines, faulty controls, and lack of support post-release. Even if Sonic followed the path of least resistance, scrapping 3D game development entirely and giving everything up to the Sonic Mania team, you'd still be left with a franchise that is only recognized for its 2D pixel games that live in the past rather than innovate. It takes a lot more than Sonic Mania 2 being better than New Super Mario Bros Switch for the Sonic series to overtake Mario.

Having faith in the Sonic series is no argument. Faith is just the opposite of critical thought and reasoning.

I don´t want to mess up any part of your perfectly crafted reply, but still. At least to me, it seems that Mario starts to somehow exhaust people after years... I mean look at the Super Mario Bros., then NSMB... after that 3D - SM 64, Galaxy and then not-so-perfect (yes, well received by critics, but I doubt they are that well received as 64 and Galaxy) Sunshine and Odyssey.

With Sonic you can be at least assured that there will be an enhancement and then a flop. As the time shown. That´s at least something, isn´t it ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

How is it bad reasoning? All I'm trying to say is that Sonic's current situation is something he can recover from. He isn't "ruined forever" or anything like that. It's still possible for him to be objectively better than Mario, and I refuse to give up hope that it will happen some day.

See, you're trying to make it an argument about whether or not Sonic COULD be better than Mario, but what's actually being discussed in this topic is whether Sonic IS better. I mean, I think for a lot of us, including myself, the potential we see in the series is a large reason we're attracted to it, and that's a major reason I personally find myself much more interested in Sonic than Mario...but that doesn't have anything to do with Sonic actually being better than Mario. What you're saying is just...not really related to the topic at hand? It being POSSIBLE for Sonic to be "objectively better" doesn't make Sonic actually better than Mario. And I think this has been gone over already over and over again but you just don't seem to accept it or offer any actual counter-arguments. You just keep doubling down on this "potential" and "possibility" stuff again and again.

I'm sorry, but it's actually extremely silly to say that something is better than something else because it could be better or has the potential to be better or might be better someday. Like, just imagine two people working at a company, one who does a good job at all his work and always gets good results, and another who has some exciting ideas but is pretty lazy and untalented and as a result consistently fails to execute them remotely well except on extremely rare occasions. Now imagine the latter employee went on and on about how he was better than the former just because he had so much "potential". I dunno about you, but that sounds extremely obnoxious to me.

Again, it's fine to like Sonic more because of the potential it has, but it's just not a very good argument for why it's actually better. Because honestly, anyone can argue that something has "potential" to be better than something else. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter much.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Legendary Emerald said:

Nothing is impossible, but you have not given any reason to believe that Sonic COULD be objectively better.

What reasons can I give that wouldn't be dismissed as subjective?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, superman43 said:

I don´t want to mess up any part of your perfectly crafted reply, but still. At least to me, it seems that Mario starts to somehow exhaust people after years... I mean look at the Super Mario Bros., then NSMB... after that 3D - SM 64, Galaxy and then not-so-perfect (yes, well received by critics, but I doubt they are that well received as 64 and Galaxy) Sunshine and Odyssey.

With Sonic you can be at least assured that there will be an enhancement and then a flop. As the time shown. That´s at least something, isn´t it ?

...no. Some Mario games feel a little samey and that's not great, but even most of them are at least decent games, and the series still puts out some absolutely stellar ones. Sonic, on the other hand, has struggled to put out anything that could even be considered good, and Mania aside, even its best attempts haven't been great.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

What reasons can I give that wouldn't be dismissed as subjective?

It's not our job to give you that answer, and if you don't have one yourself, you shouldn't be making an arguing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If people prefer Sonic over Mario for whatever reasons I don’t see why fans gotta act like arrogant Mr Plinkett fanboys who feel it’s their duty to show why they’re wrong for having a different opinion. 

The reason I prefer Sonic over Mario was because I got invested because the characters were interesting and the plot of the games had me hooked. I couldn’t with Mario because the plot rarely doesn’t go any further than stop the fire turtle from kidnapping the princess yet again and the characters in those games express little personality. I’ve heard the Paper Mario games deviated from that formula but thanks to miyamoto those games eventually got bland as the main series.

I don’t think anyone is questioning the quality of Mario in general. But not everyone has to love Mario nor should Sonic follow suit into becoming repetitive with little effort put in the games.

  • Nice Smile 1
  • Fist Bump 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...no. Some Mario games feel a little samey and that's not great, but even most of them are at least decent games, and the series still puts out some absolutely stellar ones. Sonic, on the other hand, has struggled to put out anything that could even be considered good, and Mania aside, even its best attempts haven't been great.

That´s your opinion. I didn´t play recent Mario games and now as I am looking at Galaxy gameplay it seems to me less of a platformer than for example Sonic Heroes or, hell, even 06.

Like exploration-based things never really suit me and sorry for that. That´s why I like Sonic even at the worst, if you want to be faster in a goal or to explore a new route there, you have to be precise.

So... Mario is a slow-paced and Sonic is fast-paced. That´s how it is and why it´s not comparable. OK ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

If people prefer Sonic over Mario for whatever reasons I don’t see why fans gotta act like arrogant Mr Plinkett fanboys who feel it’s their duty to show why they’re wrong for having a different opinion.

Hmm...

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

You're allowed to like whatever you want, but bad reasoning is still bad reasoning.

49 minutes ago, Legendary Emerald said:

You're more than allowed to prefer the Sonic series to Mario, because that is pure opinion.

50 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Anyone who has simply said they preferred Sonic games to Mario games haven't been countered because that's purely preference, not a shallow argument to make Mario seem worse.

18 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Again, it's fine to like Sonic more because of the potential it has, but it's just not a very good argument for why it's actually better. Because honestly, anyone can argue that something has "potential" to be better than something else. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter much.

Nice strawman you got there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

What reasons can I give that wouldn't be dismissed as subjective?

You don't need to argue, and just because you can't argue doesn't mean your feelings about the series aren't valid. The reasons we like or have a preference for any game might go beyond what's objectively and technically true, and that's fine. Sonic Adventure is my favorite 3D Sonic game even with the laundry list of reasons why someone could argue SA2 or Generations or whatever is better.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.