The Future of The Boost Formula

[Wraith]

17 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

 

I just feel like removing the boost while replacing it with something like the spindash is going backwards. While some claim, with proper reasoning, that every decision ST made after the classics was to hinder gameplay, I absolutely don't see that with the boost. To me it's a better spindash that still requires the same skill and foreknowledge to utilize without the clunky stop and go setup. Balance certainly needs to go into it with the hypothetical next game, but getting rid of it would just end up punishing the players who'd rather go fast while the only thing players who want to move slower gain is not having the option to (an option they didn't need to use in the first place).

Trying to frame the boost as an optional thing is disingenuous. Everything, from the level design to Sonic's gimped control scheme to the way enemies are laid out and how they function are built around it is built around it. To  properly explore a level, you need to use it properly. It's like saying you don't HAVE to use the gun for Ratchet and Clank. That's technically true, but the melee combat is shallow as all hell and gimped deliberately so players are driven toward shooting where all the options and depth are.

I also don't think "Sonic is the opposite of Mario" should be taken to extremes since that was more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. Sonic took a lot frm Mario back in the day and still does even today. If Mario can influence the series positively, they shouldn't shy away from it.

[Strickerx5]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

I also don't think "Sonic is the opposite of Mario" should be taken to extremes since that was more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. Sonic took a lot frm Mario back in the day and still does even today. If Mario can influence the series positively, they shouldn't shy away from it.

The last time ST tried to take influences from Mario we got LW... I'm not saying it couldn't work but I'd rather have ST falling flat on its face with what makes the series unique rather than it doing so with unoriginal ideas.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

The last time ST tried to take influences from Mario we got LW... I'm not saying it couldn't work but I'd rather have St falling flat on its face with what makes the series unique rather than it doing so with unoriginal ideas.

I don't get why Lost World continues to come up in these discussions. All the Mario "influence" is almost all surface level stuff. No actual meaningful game design decisions or methodology were taken. 

[Strickerx5]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

I don't get why Lost World continues to come up in these discussions. All the Mario "influence" is almost all surface level stuff. No actual meaningful game design decisions or methodology were taken. 

From stuff like the run button to a lot of the gimmicks being applied, it shares a lot with Mario.

[Diogenes]

Buddy if you think Sonic having a button to make him run faster is a problem I've got some news for you...

[Strickerx5]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Buddy if you think Sonic having a button to make him run faster is a problem I've got some news for you...

The smallest concern I have with that game (like it's literally just a button to go at a normal speed... like a gimped boost) when thinking back to some of those Sky Road acts so eh.

Though I'm starting to remember discussions for LW and I'ma nope the hell out of this one. It ain't even on topic.

so no, lw shares nothing with mario, nothing at all

dear lord plz

[Wraith]

17 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

From stuff like the run button to a lot of the gimmicks being applied, it shares a lot with Mario.

THat's what I'm saying. They take a lot of shit from Mario, but they take it wholesale and slap it in without thinking about it. Mario had a run button so SOnic gets a run button. Mario has a timer so Sonic gets a timer. Mario has gravity gimmicks so Sonic gets gravity gimmicks. It's a little kid mimmicking stuff an adult does without getting why they do it. It's not positive influence. It's Sonic Team shallowly mimicking Nintendo. It's only just barely what I'm suggesting they do but it gets brought up anyways.

 

 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

On 2/26/2018 at 7:07 PM, Diogenes said:

It's about balance, dude. The spindash has actual downsides that mean it's not always the best choice for going fast. Because you need to come to a stop and charge it, you need to decide when that extra burst of speed is going to save time in the long run or if you're better off just continuing to run. Because it puts you into a rolling state you need to decide if it's worth putting yourself more at the mercy of the terrain or staying on your feet so you can manually accelerate (or take the risk of spindashing and find an opportunity to hop to your feet). You need to think ahead regarding loops and wall/ceiling runs because you can't spindash if you aren't on the ground. Because the spindash isn't always available or ideal, nor is it how you reach the fastest speeds, other game mechanics like the slope physics and various level gimmicks have time to shine.

Meanwhile, if you want to go fast in a boost game, just press boost. That's it. That's always the right answer. It's essentially instant, continuous top speed at the press of a button, usable in almost any situation, for only the cost of some fuel that the game almost constantly throws at you.

By being so "streamlined" and effective, it becomes a much shallower, and thus much worse, game mechanic.

Well...Sorta.

In some ways, they are both are the same concept. They introduced access to Instant speed buttons without working for it like the first game did. There is a bit more balance to spin dash in comparison but both games are different entirely so it’s not to fair to compare the concept. Even so, you can’t always boost recklessly as a new player to the formula. It’s only after you knows the level you can grind it out.

Obviously Boosting can be tweaked for both balance and unique usages but in Unleashed, it really wasn’t the issue. The game was punishing enough for you where Boost wasn’t that overpowered.

As for Spin Dash, it depends on the game. 

Pretty sure in most Sonic games you always think ahead of what you’re doing until you understand the level. After that it’s all rhythm.

[Agie]

I've been trying and trying and trying to think about where the Sonic series should go. The Adventure games, while fun, have many things that don't hold up. The boost games are fun, but I can only think of so many ways to keep that fresh.

Ironically, I feel like the Lost World controls may actually lend themselves the best to new ideas. Not the mechanics of lost world, but I have come to feel like Lost World's controls on their own actually did away with some of the clunk of the Adventure games, and I can't help but think they're just a bit more versatile than the Boost formula.

That said, the run button...may or may not need to go, but still. I feel like Lost World's control scheme can work in a non-Mario-like environment. Just needs better level design and less intrusive mechanics to really truly shine. The run button, I'm still undecided on because my mind is arguing with itself on that one.

But that's just me. Now, I won't say they should abandon the boost entirely. Honestly, I'm wondering if they should try it one more time before ditching it entirely. But I am having a hard time thinking about what they can do to make the Boost fresh.

[superman43]

6 hours ago, SurrealBrain said:

But that's just me. Now, I won't say they should abandon the boost entirely. Honestly, I'm wondering if they should try it one more time before ditching it entirely. But I am having a hard time thinking about what they can do to make the Boost fresh.

I am still somehow inclined to think they will ditch the Boost gameplay, maybe even in the next game. Think about it like this... let´s try looking at the "mainline" Sonic games, or at least what Sonic Generations says is mainline (and done by Sonic Team, of course).

Classics:
Sonic 1; Sonic 2; Sonic 3 (& Knuckles); Chaotix, Sonic X-treme*

Adventure:

Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog '06

Modern/Boost:

Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces

 

In every "era" first game is introductory and kind of hard. The second one adds something new to the concept while being easier. Third one tries to be a manifest of it, sure Heroes failed in that manner. Fourth one is an odd one, having a different focus. Fifth one is true to the form, but fails. It's a pattern.

EDIT: I totally forgot that the Chaotix wasn´t developed by Sonic Team. Nevertheless it fits in that place.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

5 hours ago, superman43 said:

In every "era" first game is introductory and kind of hard.

I find this interesting. The first games are fine but later on they homogenize them and add new concepts. Sadly, the classics seemed to be far closer to this success rather slow deterioration. While I have my own problems with Sonic 3K, it certainly showed a great example of a culmination of designing Sonic properly once you've done his style enough. 

[superman43]

9 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

I find this interesting. The first games are fine but later on they homogenize them and add new concepts. Sadly, the classics seemed to be far closer to this success rather slow deterioration. While I have my own problems with Sonic 3K, it certainly showed a great example of a culmination of designing Sonic properly once you've done his style enough. 

Or maybe I should have said that the first ones are more tedious than the later entries, maybe. That stays true for Sonic 1 and Unleashed, at least.