Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - DADDY SAKURAI'S WILD RIDE HAS CONCLUDED

[Dr. Detective]

You know, the thought never crossed my mind to use weaker spirits to get more rewards after fights. That's a good idea that doesn't totally make the lesser primary spirits immediately useless. I should check into doing that during my New Game Plus.

I do ultimately come away from this first experience feeling as though World of Light was a massive undertaking that still managed to unfortunately not live up to its potential because of the intentional lack of scenes involving the cast interacting with one another. Sakurai asserting that the focus is more on "fun rather than story" is, of course, going to mystify someone like me who gets most of their enjoyment from games out of following characters around through expansive and beautiful looking worlds through an interactive experience. So much so that it can even see me putting games I deem less polished than others as greater overall experiences in my mind. 

I guess I see the logical base behind what the point was but for a single player mode, engaging someone who's not currently competing against anyone but a computer for so many hours on end tends to require a bit more than that for the fun to come through. At least for me. I don't think World of Light is a massive failure or anything. I am playing through it again and collecting these spirits is something that's taken up the majority of my time with the game but I'll always consider it this game's biggest missed opportunity. Despite it being Ultimate, it somehow doesn't feel complete without it.

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The Spirit Board is pointless, since again, it gives me spirits which are way weaker than I already have at the 3 hour mark.

The goal is to collect spirits, not to simply get the most powerful one.

15 minutes ago, Plasme said:

It's my fault that I don't play by the game's intended rules if the game gives me a bunch of spirit which breaks the game. Sure.

When you choose to play in a way that's actively detrimental to your enjoyment, yeah.

[Dr. Detective]

I'll agree that the Spirit Board, as it's designed, is a lot less convenient than necessary. It's definitely not my preferred method of getting spirits. All it would take to fix it, in my eyes, would be to remove that pointless mini-game after you beat the spirit in question. Nothing sucked more than to have to go back and redo a fight you already conquered because the super-spinning thing was too fast for you and you fucked up the slow-mo item and you were out of spacers. I also don't like that the board puts spirits that I already got on the board. I suppose that's mostly done in cases where I've fused spirits or dismissed them though. 

[StaticMania]

There was some amount of truth to Sakurai not wanting to do another story mode...with cutscenes.

He showed the only cutscene that people would be interested in, everything got leaked, and on top of not doing another adventure mode...people were also disappointed in the lack of story.

That is commendable decision making.

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

When you choose to play in a way that's actively detrimental to your enjoyment, yeah.

It is the game designer's responsibility to balance the game and provide incentive for the player to approach the game in the most enjoyable way. I didn't see a reason not to just break the spirit battles over my knee.  A lot of them are ridiculously cheesy or difficult if I try to meet the game halfway on them and you get one shot at them if you're playing Spirit board. The extra rewards are gonna be lost on people compared to just getting the spirits they want or risk them disappearing on the first loss. It's a system with a lot of pitfalls and bad habits the player can fall into.

[Diogenes]

25 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It is the game designer's responsibility to balance the game and provide incentive for the player to approach the game in the most enjoyable way.

That's true for the most part, but there's only so much a game can do to lead the player without being overbearing. Short of designing WoL as a linear series of battles from weak to strong I'm not sure what they could do to prevent players from fighting weak spirits while equipping strong ones.

[Zaysho]

From what I have played of World of Light (I think I'm about halfway through), the lack of story doesn't really bother me. It's not terribly dissimilar to Brawl's, perhaps with fewer cutscenes. The initial cutscene did hype me up more than I should have been, I admit, but the lack of cutscenes or more fleshed out character interactions strangely bothers me the least compared to the gameplay just being a boring slog that goes on longer than it should have. Moving around a world map and stopping every few spaces to fight another spirit battle gets tiring after a while. I personally prefer the Spirit Board even if it has its own shortcomings, though I will give WoL credit for making it easier to rematch and obtain spirits without nearly as much hassle as the Spirit Board.

I would have liked to have seen the map just have other things to do like simple puzzles that don't just lead to another spirit battle (say some treasure or something) or if it was just a straight up platforming adventure like Subspace where your primary goal is to collect the fighters with a decent assortment of spirits rather than every single one (we have the Spirit Board for everything else).

[Plasme]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

The goal is to collect spirits, not to simply get the most powerful one.

When you choose to play in a way that's actively detrimental to your enjoyment, yeah.

The goal is to beat the Adventure mode. Collecting spirits is an optional task for completionists.

I'm actually bewildered that you of all people are arguing this. You rightly shut this shit down when used in other contexts. "In Sonic 4, it's the player's fault that they use the homing attack, the game is much more enjoyable if you pretend it doesn't exist. If you choose to play the game in a way that's actively detrimental to your enjoyment, it's your fault. So just don't use the homing attack in Sonic 4". That is literally what you are arguing. 

The game gives me super powerful spirits to beat the Adventure Mode with, it's not my responsibility to handicap myself and decide not to use the tools the designers have laid out for me. 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

That's true for the most part, but there's only so much a game can do to lead the player without being overbearing. Short of designing WoL as a linear series of battles from weak to strong I'm not sure what they could do to prevent players from fighting weak spirits while equipping strong ones.

That would actually give the game a sense of progression and is what a better designed adventure mode would have done, as well as being significantly shorter.

[Diogenes]

57 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The goal is to beat the Adventure mode. Collecting spirits is an optional task for completionists.

Beating Adventure mode is an optional task for completionists. Nobody forced you to beat it. Nobody forced you to even so much as look at it. That you spent 30 hours playing a mode you didn't like in a stupid, fun-sucking way was entirely your choice. You could've just stuck to Classic and multiplayer or whatever modes you actually enjoy.

57 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'm actually bewildered that you of all people are arguing this. You rightly shut this shit down when used in other contexts. "In Sonic 4, it's the player's fault that they use the homing attack, the game is much more enjoyable if you pretend it doesn't exist. If you choose to play the game in a way that's actively detrimental to your enjoyment, it's your fault. So just don't use the homing attack in Sonic 4". That is literally what you are arguing. 

The homing attack is a deliberate and integral addition to Sonic 4, you are meant to be using it regularly on both enemies and level gimmicks designed to interact with it, and pretending that it didn't exist would probably make the game even worse. You are not meant to be using maxed out 4-star spirits on every battle in WoL, the game deliberately dissuades you from doing this by reducing the rewards you get from fights and giving you "recommended" spirits similar in power to the one you're fighting, but it allows you to use stronger ones if you so choose. They are not even remotely the same situation.

57 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The game gives me super powerful spirits to beat the Adventure Mode with, it's not my responsibility to handicap myself and decide not to use the tools the designers have laid out for me. 

While I do believe it's part of good game design to try to prevent or dissuade players from making the experience worse for themselves, no game is idiot proof. Player choice is always going to be a factor, and no amount of smart design can prevent someone bullheaded enough from slamming their head against the same wall for 30 hours.

[Catallena]

18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Beating Adventure mode is an optional task for completionists.

what

[Diogenes]

Just now, Catallena said:

what

Smash bros is a multiplayer fighting/party game. Adventure mode is an extra mode, not the game's primary focus.

[Sonictrainer]

8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

You know, the thought never crossed my mind to use weaker spirits to get more rewards after fights.

...did no one else do this? 

Since they explained in the last Smash Direct, I pretty much went into every Spirit Battle with a Spirit Power number weaker than the opponents.

[Dr. Detective]

5 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

...did no one else do this? 

Since they explained in the last Smash Direct, I pretty much went into every Spirit Battle with a Spirit Power number weaker than the opponents.

I just tried doing it today and I just switched back to using the Soma Cruz spirit anyway. Didn't really feel worth it using weaker ones.

[KHCast]

@DiogenesPretty sure It’s not optional for completionists considering a buttload of challenges/rewards are tied to the mode? 

I also think it’s a ridiculously ignorant response to say “well it’s optional just ignore it” when it was a pretty hyped up mode that’s a good chunk of the game’s content. There are fair and reasonable  critiscms to have with it, I don’t see how we’re trying to throw blame souly on players for playing a game that has constantly through its history encouraged player agency, for not playing it in a directly specific way 

[Plasme]

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Beating Adventure mode is an optional task for completionists. Nobody forced you to beat it. Nobody forced you to even so much as look at it. That you spent 30 hours playing a mode you didn't like in a stupid, fun-sucking way was entirely your choice. You could've just stuck to Classic and multiplayer or whatever modes you actually enjoy.

The homing attack is a deliberate and integral addition to Sonic 4, you are meant to be using it regularly on both enemies and level gimmicks designed to interact with it, and pretending that it didn't exist would probably make the game even worse. You are not meant to be using maxed out 4-star spirits on every battle in WoL, the game deliberately dissuades you from doing this by reducing the rewards you get from fights and giving you "recommended" spirits similar in power to the one you're fighting, but it allows you to use stronger ones if you so choose. They are not even remotely the same situation.

While I do believe it's part of good game design to try to prevent or dissuade players from making the experience worse for themselves, no game is idiot proof. Player choice is always going to be a factor, and no amount of smart design can prevent someone bullheaded enough from slamming their head against the same wall for 30 hours.

The Adventure Mode is the main story mode of Smash Ultimate. Saying 'you don't need to beat it' is just disingenious. Fighting games are most known for their multiplayer, but the dev team didn't put their resources into and market World of Light if it was a throwaway mode.

The Spirits are an integral part of World of Light as the homing attack is in Sonic 4, you are intended to use them to defeat powerful foes. You are meant to use the spirits to the best of your ability to beat hostile spirits and win the mode. It's not my fault the game is badly balanced so levelling up weaker spirits and the skill tree isn't worth it when I can just barge through with legend spirits.

Actually, it's entirely the designer's responsibility to make sure you can't get the most powerful equipment 2 or so hours into a 30 hour RPG. It's why you don't get the ultimate armour and weapons in Final Fantasy at the 2 hour mark unless you go out of your way to exploit the game (lionheart in FF8), which requires mastery of the game and lots of grinding.

I mean, I get your whole shtick on this forum is to argue down dumb arguments and show off your smarts for likes, but just accept you are wrong here.

 

[Diogenes]

3 hours ago, KHCast said:

@DiogenesPretty sure It’s not optional for completionists considering a buttload of challenges/rewards are tied to the mode? 

"Optional for completionists" in the sense that doing it is optional, unless you are a completionist. Optional and for completionists, not optional if you are a completionist.

3 hours ago, KHCast said:

I also think it’s a ridiculously ignorant response to say “well it’s optional just ignore it” when it was a pretty hyped up mode that’s a good chunk of the game’s content.

I was replying to someone who ignored basically every other aspect of the Spirits modes.

 

17 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The Adventure Mode is the main story mode of Smash Ultimate. Saying 'you don't need to beat it' is just disingenious. Fighting games are most known for their multiplayer, but the dev team didn't put their resources into and market World of Light if it was a throwaway mode.

Yeah and they also didn't put their time into the rest of the Spirits mode content for people to ignore it but you feel fine writing that off as just being for completionists when it reveals that you didn't actually understand how to play the game.

17 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The Spirits are an integral part of World of Light as the homing attack is in Sonic 4, you are intended to use them to defeat powerful foes. You are meant to use the spirits to the best of your ability to beat hostile spirits and win the mode. It's not my fault the game is badly balanced so levelling up weaker spirits and the skill tree isn't worth it when I can just barge through with legend spirits.

So you're just not going to acknowledge that the game gives you clear reasons not to do that? You are meant to use spirits of an appropriate level to your opponent, that is why the game suggests spirits of a similar level and rewards you more for being equal to or weaker than them.

[Plasme]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

Yeah and they also didn't put their time into the rest of the Spirits mode content for people to ignore it but you feel fine writing that off as just being for completionists when it reveals that you didn't actually understand how to play the game.

So you're just not going to acknowledge that the game gives you clear reasons not to do that? You are meant to use spirits of an appropriate level to your opponent, that is why the game suggests spirits of a similar level and rewards you more for being equal to or weaker than them.

I've already said that I understand the reasoning behind getting weak spirits and levelling them up for more rewards. I'm just saying that the rewards are pointless when the game hands you overpowered spirits early on which makes that entire system redundant. 

I actually did choose to level up a few of the pointless primary spirits early simply because I like the characters (Tron Bonne for example). But once I got very powerful legend spirits and element immunity inducing secondary spirits, there was really no reason to get more snacks or skill tree unlocks. I could already plow through the mode and literally without even thinking. Walk to enemy, smash attack a few times, win. Repeat a hundred or so times.

It's not my fault that the game is badly balanced and designed. I shouldn't have to give myself artificial handicaps to make the game better.

I shouldn't have to not use the homing attack in Sonic 4 to make the game better when it's always in my best interest to use it.

I really think you just aren't getting this.

 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I've already said that I understand the reasoning behind getting weak spirits and levelling them up for more rewards. I'm just saying that the rewards are pointless when the game hands you overpowered spirits early on which makes that entire system redundant. 

Then you don't understand the reasoning, because you're ignoring that Adventure mode is part of Spirits as a whole, and that collecting them is at least as much the point as beating the story mode.

4 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I actually did choose to level up a few of the primary spirits early simply because I like the characters (Tron Bonne for example). But once I got very powerful legend spirits and element immunity inducing secondary spirits, there was really no reason to get more snacks or skill tree unlocks. I could already plow through the mode and literally without even thinking. Walk to enemy, smash attack a few times, win. Repeat a hundred or so times.

Yes and look how well that boneheaded way of playing worked out for you. You did the equivalent of trading a level 100 Mewtwo into a fresh run of Pokemon Red and blaming the game for allowing you to trivialize it.

[Plasme]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Then you don't understand the reasoning, because you're ignoring that Adventure mode is part of Spirits as a whole, and that collecting them is at least as much the point as beating the story mode.

Yes and look how well that boneheaded way of playing worked out for you. You did the equivalent of trading a level 100 Mewtwo into a fresh run of Pokemon Red and blaming the game for allowing you to trivialize it.

The purpose of World of Light, like any other game, is to win. Collecting lots of spirits is a completionist challenge, it's not the primary objective. And besides, I don't find collecting spirits entertaining when most of them have no practical use.

And you are comparing trading a level 100 Mewtwo into a new run of Pokemon to waking down a corridor for an hour and picking up an overpowered spirit in World of Light? Wow. What a hilariously absurd comparison.

The actual equivalent would be walking to the right in pokemon red for an hour and coming across Mewtwo, because thats what World of Light actually does with its spirit system.

[Catallena]

i'm pretty sure that's what badges are there for though, because collecting all pokémon and the journey itself are one and only even though they are separate objectives so you can't ruin one with the other

if there's conflict between two major things in the game then that's a problem in itself right?

[Diogenes]

18 minutes ago, Plasme said:

The purpose of World of Light, like any other game, is to win.

Well shit and here I was thinking the point was to have fun. Well, you beat the Adventure mode, so good job, you accomplished your goal. You can consider yourself to have "won" this argument as well. 

[Plasme]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well shit and here I was thinking the point was to have fun. Well, you beat the Adventure mode, so good job, you accomplished your goal. You can consider yourself to have "won" this argument as well. 

You can 'have fun' with literally anything. You can have fun doing homing attack chains in Sonic 4.

[Wraith]

I haven't have any sympathy for "completionists" in regards to this series in a very long time and this modes reuses so much content from the other modes that it can't be considered a significant chunk of game. I just think what they did wasn't engaging. It doesn't fill the niche Adventure mode is supposed to fill and isn't that rewarding in it's own right collecting spirits. I tried to play along, but eventually I just started cheesing it to get the menu option.

Micromanaging, stats and loadouts isn't why Smash Bros is fun. It's a union between movement and combat with the "movement" part of the series mattering less and less as the series moves away from light platforming challenges for stuff like this. 

[KHCast]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

So you're just not going to acknowledge that the game gives you clear reasons not to do that? You are meant to use spirits of an appropriate level to your opponent, that is why the game suggests spirits of a similar level and rewards you more for being equal to or weaker than them.

Most of the rewards aren’t that great, or can be earned in other modes, and Nintendo has always had the “play it your way” mindset, so suddenly expecting players to play it in your intended fashion just comes off dumb when they’re giving you other means of completion. I actually wasn’t even aware I’d get more rewards for that through most of my first run through, and doing so didn’t make the mode any more endearing or different.

[JezMM]

I'm kind of halfway between the two sides here.  I also hated the micromanaging aspect and gameplay which 100% was not combat/skill focused and found myself only playing WoL in short bursts for the first few hours of it.  At the same time, I never felt hugely compelled to just steamroll the mode with legend spirits, I would usually play with a recommended level and only switch to powerful spirits after a couple of failures using a recommended level.

It's kind of like whenever I chose to use overpowered spirits, a big mental block was coming up in the same way I would when hesitating to select Easy mode on a game I'm playing for the first time.  "Oh, you're not even gonna try!?" I'd think to myself.  In some cases the answer was "Nah I don't really care about this spirit I don't know what they're from/it's on a stage I don't like/I hate fighting this character/I'm nearly at the end of this part I think and I'm kinda ansty to see the next area" and I'd be comfortable to continue with using an overpowered spirit team.  Otherwise though... I felt there wasn't much point being pissed off at the lack of action gameplay between fights if I was basically gonna use a spirit team that may as well have caused a "skip fight" option to appear on the startup screen for every single match.  Like, increased rewards are nice but sometimes the reward can be the gameplay itself.  I do agree with Diogenes logic that if you're gonna deny yourself even that then... why bother playing at all.  I think as I've gotten older I've become a LOT better at being okay with ditching video games that I'm not enjoying.  Life is too short.  "This one just ain't for me", that's fine.

 

Also, honestly the mixture of spirits stuff and the more creative Classic mode kind of inspired me to mix up my random matches against CPUs a bit more.  The other day I played a self-imposed "playlist" of matches on stages/against opponents/with music to evoke the levels of a favourite game of mine and it was pretty fulfilling.