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Sonictrainer

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - PLEASE SPOILER TAG LEAKS

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I'm kind of halfway between the two sides here.  I also hated the micromanaging aspect and gameplay which 100% was not combat/skill focused and found myself only playing WoL in short bursts for the first few hours of it.  At the same time, I never felt hugely compelled to just steamroll the mode with legend spirits, I would usually play with a recommended level and only switch to powerful spirits after a couple of failures using a recommended level.

It's kind of like whenever I chose to use overpowered spirits, a big mental block was coming up in the same way I would when hesitating to select Easy mode on a game I'm playing for the first time.  "Oh, you're not even gonna try!?" I'd think to myself.  In some cases the answer was "Nah I don't really care about this spirit I don't know what they're from/it's on a stage I don't like/I hate fighting this character/I'm nearly at the end of this part I think and I'm kinda ansty to see the next area" and I'd be comfortable to continue with using an overpowered spirit team.  Otherwise though... I felt there wasn't much point being pissed off at the lack of action gameplay between fights if I was basically gonna use a spirit team that may as well have caused a "skip fight" option to appear on the startup screen for every single match.  Like, increased rewards are nice but sometimes the reward can be the gameplay itself.  I do agree with Diogenes logic that if you're gonna deny yourself even that then... why bother playing at all.  I think as I've gotten older I've become a LOT better at being okay with ditching video games that I'm not enjoying.  Life is too short.  "This one just ain't for me", that's fine.

 

Also, honestly the mixture of spirits stuff and the more creative Classic mode kind of inspired me to mix up my random matches against CPUs a bit more.  The other day I played a self-imposed "playlist" of matches on stages/against opponents/with music to evoke the levels of a favourite game of mine and it was pretty fulfilling.

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13 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I do agree with Diogenes logic that if you're gonna deny yourself even that then... why bother playing at all.  I think as I've gotten older I've become a LOT better at being okay with ditching video games that I'm not enjoying.  Life is too short.  "This one just ain't for me", that's fine.

 

That's normally my logic too. I actually ignored this mode for weeks and didn't even really consider it part of the overall package but I wanted to change the menu music and that feature's just about the only thing locked behind this mode, lol.

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Changing menu music is literally the only reason I would bother to finish World of Light and even then it's not motivating enough for me lol. Even Classic Mode feels pointless now knowing that the only reward is a PNG file of some character artwork I've seen a million times. tl;dr Spirits suck

I think the most damaging thing to the single-player replay value of Ultimate by far was no more trophies. They were always fun to look at and collect and it was interesting to read bios on characters you've never known of before.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Instead of a png of character artwork, you get a model based on said artwork...

They could've written Bios for all the Spirits if they thought to, being trophies shouldn't change that.

Sakurai never specifically said WHAT about trophies made them so time-consuming to develop.  I imagine both the modelling (or importing) of them AND the research/writing/translation for them all were a heavy task.

Honestly though, if the disc-space allowed, I wouldn't have minded if they had just imported most trophies from previous games with the same descriptions, and just added an extra 10% or so of new ones on top of those.  They could still have spirits on top of that, and unlocking a trophy also unlocks the spirit, etc.

Having said that, there may be new supported languages that they would have to translate all the older trophies to as well.

 

Well, at the very least I wish we had trophy-description-length bios for all the characters, stages and assist trophies - just the big stuff.  The tips section does about a sentence or two for MOST of the above but even then, not all.

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S' probsly a combination of all the above.

There's fighters which is fine. Alts for the fighters. There's Final Smashes. There's stage models. Original Smash stuff. Items. Assist Trophies. Characters and Objects from each and every series.

Descriptions. Backgrounds. The gallery. The Photo mode.

Importing models and original models.

That's a bit.

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45 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

All the fun was taken out of Smash when it got to Ultimate taking out trophies, stage builder, custom moves, taunts and it removes Peach's grabs for toad.  

I feel like you're going a little extreme there. Those are little details that are a bit annoying, but it definitely doesn't "take all the fun out of Smash" as you say.

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24 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

I feel like you're going a little extreme there. Those are little details that are a bit annoying, but it definitely doesn't "take all the fun out of Smash" as you say.

Its not extreme and they aren't little details how is the removal of modes and moves little details? Those were the entertaining things about Smash that got taken out. 

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1 hour ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

I feel like you're going a little extreme there. Those are little details that are a bit annoying, but it definitely doesn't "take all the fun out of Smash" as you say.

I will say that for me, as mostly a single-player guy, collecting trophies was kind of the main drive I had for investing so much time in Smash. It didn't take out ALL the fun, not having them here, and obviously I can't hold it against the game too much since this is largely a multiplayer focused game but there was a significant amount of fun to collecting those things and reading up on the characters I found. It was nice having a collection of stuff I knew nothing about lined up in a neat little package for me to look into. Wading through a bunch of different Wikis and trying to discern which ones were important sounds significantly less fun and convenient. 

Collecting spirits is the main drive I have now too, although, it's a little less rewarding since they don't come with descriptions. If they had added those, I'd have been fine with trophies being gone. I understand it takes a lot of work making them. I'm perfectly okay with them being replaced with PNGs of official character artwork. 

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2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

All the fun was taken out of Smash when it got to Ultimate taking out trophies

To be honest, Super Smash Bros. has always been a starting point for introducing players to characters, items, and elements of series they're not familiar with.

Personally, I've had a blast going online and looking at the multitude of wikis or YouTube timeline videos for each series to learn more about the Spirits I've unlocked.

Researching the Castlevania Series has been really interesting and I might get into the Netflix series when I get a chance.

If Spirits had the same trivia as Trophies, I don't the issue would be as bad. I will give props for the English logicalization for making some good trivia in the past games.

2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

stage builder 

Even though I've beaten Adventure Mode once, I still don't think I've fully explored all 103 stages and all of their variants yet.

Plus, we've got 5 more on the way.

2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

custom moves 

I haven't heard anyone else complaint or request for Custom Moves to return.

In fact, IIRC Custom Moves were not that popular.

2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

taunts 

You mean in Online Matches?

Yeah, I can live without someone taunting every time I lose a Life/Stock.

2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

it removes Peach's grabs for toad.  

If something about your favorite character got nerfed, you have to find a way to work around it.

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7 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

To be honest, Super Smash Bros. has always been a starting point for introducing players to characters, items, and elements of series they're not familiar with.

Personally, I've had a blast going online and looking at the multitude of wikis or YouTube timeline videos for each series to learn more about the Spirits I've unlocked.

Researching the Castlevania Series has been really interesting and I might get into the Netflix series when I get a chance.

If Spirits had the same trivia as Trophies, I don't the issue would be as bad. I will give props for the English logicalization for making some good trivia in the past games.

Yeah, I'm not going wiki hunting anytime soon. 

 

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Even though I've beaten Adventure Mode once, I still don't think I've fully explored all 103 stages and all of their variants yet.

Plus, we've got 5 more on the way.

I played all 103 stages in the past Smash games. 

 

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I haven't heard anyone else complaint or request for Custom Moves to return.

In fact, IIRC Custom Moves were not that popular.

I've seen people who miss custom moves so I don't see how there unpopular. 

 

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You mean in Online Matches?

Yeah, I can live without someone taunting every time I lose a Life/Stock.

Taunts didn't get under my skin so I can live with them.

 

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If something about your favorite character got nerfed, you have to find a way to work around it.

How do I find away around something when its been removed? 

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3 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

All the fun was taken out of Smash when it got to Ultimate taking out trophies, stage builder, custom moves, taunts and it removes Peach's grabs for toad.  

Most of the things you listed as "taking the fun out of smash" is coming off as being nitpicky at best and petty at worst(well maybe except for the trophy bit).
 

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2 minutes ago, Ruomarta said:

Most of the things you listed as "taking the fun out of smash" is coming off as being nitpicky at best and petty at worst(well maybe except for the trophy bit).
 

Any complaint when it comes to Smash is nitpicky or petty and if someone calls every complaint about something nitpicky or petty when it doesn't fall in line with their reasoning then their being a yes man.  

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50 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

I've seen people who miss custom moves so I don't see how there unpopular.

Well, let's do some research:

Here's some discussion about them: 

 

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So, I was here since the the Reveal of Smash 4 on E3. I defended the custom moves to death, until around 2 years after release, where I finally accepted that they have no place on Competitive. But how about casual standpoint?
Well:
1- It is a fucking pain to collect all custom moves. I played Smash 4 to death, played a lot of Crazy Hand mode (using specific tricks, suck Fox with Homer Run Bat) and still I'm far from getting all customs.
2- Even if you have all of them, I you can't quick equip it. You need to create a specific character, name then accordly (such as stupit shit as 1223, so you know which customs are there). There is a 10 loadouts limit, so you still can't have every option at hand. Creating many loadouts for each character is a chore.
3- They are still tied with the stupid equipment stuff. And unavailable online, so a lot of people just saw it as a "bonus feature", instead of a new way to play.
So believe me, they were implemented in the worst possible way ever. Me and my friends actually wanted to have fun with customs, but we gave up after a while. Too much work before, and during it.

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The problem was the actually took away options competitively.

Look at Donkey Kong. He has a lot of neutral spacing tools to mess with. Bair spacing, Down-tilt, some nairs maybe. You have a lot of valid options. But why would you do any of that if your opponent is a character that can’t punish Cyclone? Just up-b. That’s it. No reason to do anything else.

Same thing with Pikachu. Killing with Pikachu is a major weakness of the character, you have to get really creative to seal a stock. Maybe try to end a combo with a thunder, drag them down with bait, bait around with your far ranged fast forward smash. Or you could just kill at 60 with Heavy Skull Bash. Why be creative when you have customs?
Even more so are the characters that can’t deal with customs. Tackle Pikmin Throw and Trip Sapling come to mind that can just completely shut down certain characters. Customs actively reduced the number of viable characters, because the amount of gatekeeping mid tiers would increase significantly.

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I like the comfort of having a fixed character design to work towards mastering and understanding. Changing what every character can do means two things, neither of which I'm a fan of:

You can now second-guess whether you have the "correct" setup for your character. Was your win/loss due to your setup, or your skill? Was it fair? It's an extra layer of complication in match preparation that obfuscates what core skills could use improving.

Learning to defeat an opponent is no longer just trying to anticipate what they do--there's now an additional variable in figuring out what moveset they've picked up. I'm a lot more comfortable losing to someone who outsmarted/outplayed me than to someone who surprised me with a variant of a move I wasn't expecting.

The variety is fun and a neat change of pace for more relaxed playing, but I think that kind of variety is well suited to echo characters, and that's where I'd rather see development efforts go.

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The amount of dev time it would take to make customs balanced isn’t worth it. I’d rather have more characters, more polish, more stages, more options, etc.

Those are some good points.

50 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Taunts didn't get under my skin so I can live with them.

Taunts are not exactly great sportmanship anyway.

The less toxicity online, the better.

50 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

How do I find away around something when its been removed? 

Practice

Every match is a learning experience.

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6 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Any complaint when it comes to Smash is nitpicky or petty and if someone calls every complaint about something nitpicky or petty when it doesn't fall in line with their reasoning then their being a yes man.  

Well, no one is being a yes man around here. The only real complaints I see that are well deserved are the online and(to a lesser extent) World of Light.

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I’m actually guessing RE may show up given the games are coming to switch and all, and it’s popularity/gaming history. Leon or Chris would be the likely picks if RE were to get repped I’m guessing. 

Also,

since dragon quest is showing up in jump force, you think that effects this?

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