Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - DADDY SAKURAI'S WILD RIDE HAS CONCLUDED

[Tornado]

2 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

They are similarities nonetheless but there are other "non-vague" things they have in common (like that they're humans or that they both hail from America).

Like Mario, you say?

 

Again, are we done here? As amusing as it is when Smash players talk out of their ass about something that they have no clue about, I'd rather the particularly stupid takes like "Ken 2.0" stay in dumpster fire boards like Era instead of that sort of stupidity infecting SSMB.

[JayRaR]

3 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Like Mario, you say?

 

Again, are we done here? As amusing as it is when Smash players talk out of their ass about something that they have no clue about, I'd rather the particularly stupid takes like "Ken 2.0" stay in dumpster fire boards like Era instead of that sort of stupidity infecting SSMB.

Mario hails from America? At least read before insulting me in about it. 

[Blacklightning]

2 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

Mario hails from America? At least read before insulting me in about it. 

It's equal parts amusing and sad that you can hold someone's nationality - something that will never have any impact on gameplay and potentially might not even be referenced at all - as a reason two characters are different, yet take two characters that have no mechanical similarities at all and not take that into account when claiming they're both identical. I'm beginning to wonder whether you've taken a cursory look at google or youtube to substantiate anything you've said. Or even so much as read anything you've said. Guessing neither.

Just stop. It fills me with secondhand embarrasment that I even have to explain any of this to you, so I don't understand how you can feel no shame advocating any of this yourself.

[Tornado]

8 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

Mario hails from America?

Sometimes, yes.

Quote

At least read before insulting me in about it. 

Five posts ago, someone with extensive knowledge of the games Ken comes from and the games Terry comes from told you in no uncertain terms that you had no fucking idea what you were talking about, despite your protests that they have specific similarities like "being human beings" so they are functionally the same. You're the last person to claim people aren't reading posts.

 

 

And whether you choose to take personal offense to it or not, calling Terry "Ken 2.0" is an embarrassingly stupid take. You can use that to try and gain some knowledge why people are telling you that (hint: It's because they don't act the same, have never played the same and don't even have similar personalities) , or you can throw a fit for being called on it; but it remains true that it was an embarrassingly stupid take.

 

[JayRaR]

7 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

It's equal parts amusing and sad that you can hold someone's nationality - something that will never have any impact on gameplay and potentially might not even be referenced at all - as a reason two characters are different, yet take two characters that have no mechanical similarities at all and not take that into account when claiming they're both identical. I'm beginning to wonder whether you've taken a cursory look at google or youtube to substantiate anything you've said. Or even so much as read anything you've said. Guessing neither.

Just stop. It fills me with secondhand embarrasment that I even have to explain any of this to you, so I don't understand how you can feel no shame advocating any of this yourself.

Well I see punches and kicks, fire in his attacks, and a projectile (ground-based but still). In other games he's got a Shoryuken-like move so he does remind me of Ken in many ways.

7 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Sometimes, yes.

How is Mario "sometimes" American? He's Italian. Unless you're talking about the movie in which case lol.

[Blacklightning]

1 minute ago, JayRaR said:

Well I see punches and kicks

Are you actually taking the piss right now? It was bad enough when you were trying to fish for standards of the genre like projectiles as similarities, but punching and kicking? What the shit else are you supposed to do in a fighting game, hurt their feelings?

Have you played a fighting game before?

[JayRaR]

4 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Are you actually taking the piss right now? It was bad enough when you were trying to fish for standards of the genre like projectiles as similarities, but punching and kicking? What the shit else are you supposed to do in a fighting game, hurt their feelings?

Have you played a fighting game before?

...at least he's not using a sword? There are characters in Smash that don't punch or kick (like Rosalina or Marth). What's your point?

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

4 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

Well I see punches and kicks, fire in his attacks, and a projectile (ground-based but still). In other games he's got a Shoryuken-like move so he does remind me of Ken in many ways.

How is Mario "sometimes" American? He's Italian. Unless you're talking about the movie in which case lol.

Terry's attacks are energy and chi based dude, while Ken uses his version of shoreyokan and hadokan (and fire, like several other characters...)

Also according to an interview, he may be Italian, but Myamoto thought of Mario living in Brooklyn, New York. despite that.

 

[StaticMania]

14 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

How is Mario "sometimes" American? He's Italian. Unless you're talking about the movie in which case lol.

Mario is Italian-American...officially.

[Blacklightning]

1 minute ago, JayRaR said:

...at least he's not using a sword? There are characters in Smash that don't punch or kick (like Rosalina or Marth). What's your point?

Because 80% of the roster does. Characters like Marth are the exception rather than the rule - punching and kicking is literally the standard interaction between two characters in a fighting game, let alone a Smash Bros title, and it makes absolutely no sense to compare anyone on those merits. This has to be quite possibly one of the dumbest arguments I have heard in a long time - and considering I'm saying that on a Sonic forum, I'm not saying that lightly.

[JayRaR]

13 minutes ago, Whispering Ultima said:

Terry's attacks are energy and chi based dude, while Ken uses his version of shoreyokan and hadokan (and fire, like several other characters...)

Also according to an interview, he may be Italian, but Myamoto thought of Mario living in Brooklyn, New York. despite that.

 

Isn't Ken's Hadouken chi based too? Unless I'm missing something. I'll concede that Mario may be American, but he still looks Italian to me.

6 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Because 80% of the roster does. Characters like Marth are the exception rather than the rule - punching and kicking is literally the standard interaction between two characters in a fighting game, let alone a Smash Bros title, and it makes absolutely no sense to compare anyone on those merits. This has to be quite possibly one of the dumbest arguments I have heard in a long time - and considering I'm saying that on a Sonic forum, I'm not saying that lightly.

But it IS a fighting game, not a martial arts fighting game like most SNK titles. In Smash, you use whatever tools you have to win like Snake says in that one codec. So again, I have no idea where you're going with this.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

In Smash, you use whatever tools you have to win...

But unsurprisingly, they still mostly use punches and kicks.

[Tornado]

1 hour ago, JayRaR said:

Well I see punches and kicks, fire in his attacks, and a projectile (ground-based but still).

Sounds like Mario.

Quote

In other games he's got a Shoryuken-like move so he does remind me of Ken in many ways.

And off the top of my head, in the dozens of games Terry has appeared in that he has a rising tackle, it has worked just like a Shoryuken in three of them. Anti-air does not mean DP. "Moves look similar" does not mean "plays similar." You're wrong on this, period.

 

 

There are characters in SNK games who are straight Shotoclones. A few of them are so infamous they led to the creation of Dan. Terry isn't one.

 

So again, I have no idea where you're going with this.

I'm not sure where you're going with telling someone who has extensive experience with the two characters how they play.

[Blacklightning]

14 minutes ago, JayRaR said:

But it IS a fighting game, not a martial arts fighting game like most SNK titles. In Smash, you use whatever tools you have to win like Snake says in that one codec. So again, I have no idea where you're going with this.

Where I'm going with this is that all of your comparisons are bullshit.

Stop for just a few minutes and think - actually think - about all of the things you have suggested so far. This all started because you baselessly labelled Terry a Ken echo. Not a clone, not even just generally speaking a ripoff - an echo. Do you actually know what that means? What that's reserved for? I'll give you a hint: all of the current echos are, bar one or two differences (and sometimes not even that, ala Daisy) functionally identical to the character they're based on. The only exception so far is Chrom, and that's only because he borrows from two characters instead of just one. I don't know how much I can drill words like "functional" and "mechanical" into you before you comprehend stuff like race, colour and theme does not fucking fit that definition in any meaningful way.

So Terry has a projectile. Big whoop. So do 59 others. But off the top of my head, Bowser Jr is the only character with a grounded one - but it wouldn't matter even if I was wrong on that count, because even if there were many others, none of them are Ken.

So Terry has fire moves. Big whoop. So do about 20 others. But if you'd rather narrow it down to "people that punch with fire", Terry has more in common with Captain Falcon than Ken, and yet comparing the two at all is still a premise so laughable it basically approaches parody.

So Terry has a "shoryuken" esque move. Big whoop. So do about 6-7 others, and considering even if later games hadn't basically phased that move out anyway that Smash is almost as much a platforming game as a fighting one and all characters need recovery options regardless, it's really puzzling to me that this is somehow a sticking point for you. Funnily enough, continuing off the theme Tornado established earlier, Mario is one of those characters.

So Terry can punch and kick people. Big whoop. It's a fucking fighting game. Punching and kicking are the default actions that signify fighting. There are way more characters that fight with hands and feet than those who don't, and most of the exceptions are fucking quadrupeds whenever they're not weapon users - and even those still have kicks thrown in here and there most of the time. It is beyond baffling that this is seriously, actually, honest to god a point you're trying to make. Did you come from another planet and hit your head or something?

 

To be totally honest I'm not sure why I'm wasting this kind of energy on you, because I can't reason you out of a position you clearly didn't reason yourself into. So you know what? I'm done. And so are you. I'm done tolerating this hysterical, borderline fanboy attitude that's been on show every time you try to double down on this nonsense, and I'm this close to acting in an official capacity to ensure this comes to a stop. If you're not here to say anything of substance, just stop.

[Solly]

I remember when people who never played a Dragon Quest game were arguing that "Erdrick" would be a Robin clone/derivative because they use a sword and magic spells. Then we got arguably one of the most unique characters in the entire series, with more special moves than any other fighter. Disappointed that some are actually taking the "hat Ken" memes seriously. 

[Wraith]

I'm all good with Terry being in but as someone who plays a lot of fighting games I hope Sakurai doesn't reach for the poster boy character every time. They're all pretty distinct from one another in terms of mechanics but that's still less variety than we could be having if you reached for, say, Ky instead of Sol for instance imo. 

Basically ignore iconic characters and put my mains in. It makes sense. Think about it. 

[PublicEnemy1]

Apparently Sakurai might go on a ramble for this one, so that might explain the length. Still, that's a good 20 minutes of rambling, so there might be something more to this.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Terry will play completely different from Ken. I used to jokingly say he was Ken with a Hat but not in terms of moveset, just design, hehe.

I'm really excited to play as him... I'd prefer Rock Howard as the SNK rep but Terry is basically the mascot.

Speaking of, I'm surprised at how few people actually recognized him. I always thought he was an icon. My friend said that he was really hype for people in Latin America though!

[Tornado]

As a primer for what to probably actually expect from Terry, he's almost always been explicitly a rushdown character. He has limited ways to damage you from a distance that aren't easily punishable, but if he gets close he usually can be played so he combos fast and hard. Because of that, there's a bit of prediction required of your opponent to use him most effectively; and he absolutely excels at corner trapping, so it will be interesting to see how he's adapted to a game where that is very rarely a thing. Most of his normal attacks are fast, several of them hit multiple times and can be comboed to each other.

 

Power Wave is usually slower than your typical Shoto fireball to come out even if the speed tends to be similar, and it's explicitly ground-based so much easier to dodge (SNK games in general made it a point to nerf and downplay fireballs, frequently even restricting them to super moves or limited distance). It's main use is as part of a combo rather than a move to zone opponents. It was also very rare that it went full screen.

 

Rising Tackle has almost always been an explicitly vertical anti-air, meaning it's ability to be flow-charted like Ken or Ryu's DP is extremely limited in comparison unless whatever attack you're countering is right next to you. It's also almost always a charge move, so you can't spam it nearly as much as them either; and frequently is most effective as a combo-ender instead of an attack by itself against a stationary opponent (since it also doesn't have that much invincibility).

 

Crackshoot has more horizontal motion and is usually workable as an anti-air, but can be punished way harder than any DP ever has been since it it very rarely has any invincibility and most of Terry's hitbox is exposed behind it.

 

Burn Knuckle is highly punishable if you try to use it from a great distance to attack (as opposed to using it to close space), needs to be timed tightly to work as an anti-air; but usually is fantastic as a combo-ender since it is easy to transition to and always knocks down.

 

Power Dunk is decent as anti-air if you time it perfect and has a decent amount of horizontal range, but it is also highly punishable and far more effective if you connect with it early on in the move as it's still going up. This is especially true in games where if you only connect on the lower part it does damage but also whiffs. Its main use is also as a combo-finisher, but it has quicker charge up and is generally more invincible at the start than Crack Shoot.

(this move wasn't in CvS2 don't @ me)

Power Charge is a fast close range move that usually knocks a character up (but sometimes just pushes them back slightly and stuns), does basically no damage but is explicitly designed to allow a temp stun that you can combo/juggle into. This is the move you use to start a combo or link basic move combo into a special. If Terry's Rising Tackle is a DP motion in Smash like it was in KoF '96-'98 and this move is included as well, watch the fuck out.

Power Geyser is Terry's original super. It's a big fuck you attack that even back when SNK were assholes about input motions was easy and quick to use. Functionally it works very well as an anti-air making Terry very dangerous to jump in against when he has it charged, and it does a huge amount of damage whether you hit them on the ground or not. The higher power one hits three times, and has a lot (way more than the above GIF implies) horizontal movement that can hit all three times if timed correctly. Hugely punishable in some games since it comes out well in front of him, but also quick to come out and usually possible to combo into.

 

ARE YOU OKAY!?

 

Very fast, very easy input, lots of horizontal motion, usable as an anti-air (though outside of Garou only half of the attack will hit in that case), usually can be comboed into. Not that much damage unless the entire thing hits, but a fantastically satisfying move to land which (other than KoF 2003) always feels very powerful:

 

So at the end of the day what does this mean for Smash?

 

 

3/10 Ken With Hat

[dbzfan7]

Well if you're a big SNK person this must have been amazing. If not you're really gonna feel the bloat. That really didn't need to be 45 minutes long, and I think we coulda cut out the Classic mode run and let us players discover the references in them like we have with the others. I'm interested in Terry but honestly I'm more interested in his stage. It's like having a mini hyrule fight club. It's also a perfect stage for my half brothers who kinda suck at recovering.

I'm especially glad they announced beforehand that there would be no new character announcement so I would know ahead of time to HYPE RESPONSIBLY. So when I thought maybe they'd pull a fast one, I was still pretty sure to trust they wouldn't. So I was prepared.

A whopping 50 tracks damn. I bet people here are like  "Why couldn't sega be like "OK" and give out a bunch of music like that. Overall a what you see is what you get direct without any real surprises aside from maybe the music. I can go to sleep now, and then have to collect the new spirits to keep myself topped off.

[tailsBOOM!]

Terry update can be downloaded now!!!

[Zaysho]

5 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I bet people here are like  "Why couldn't sega be like "OK" and give out a bunch of music like that.

In fairness

Sega probably doesn't even know what Sonic music they own anymore

[Wraith]

It's still early but I think Sakurai might have made the most fun of the add on fighters yet with Terry. He's got a lot of the depth they were trying to pull off with Ryu and Ken but small tweaks make him overall less clunky. Is inputs become naturally to me and I'm having a lot of fun using the cstick to put in normals while I charge rising tackle. 

The stage is great too. I hope every walkoff gets this wall break mechanic because it solves just about every issue with how they play. I don't expect the competitive community to loosen up enough to allow it but this'll probably be one of my go-tos for one on ones. It's also nice to see every KOF character I actually played as in the background and not on the main stage.

I've been wanting Smash to experiment with more input methods to accomodate for more moves since I find the standard directional stuff too limiting. The back special is probably something that'll remain exclusive to more technical characters but I'm glad that we know is something that can work now. 

[Soniman]

Honestly in the next game I really do think the back special concept should be extrapolated to any new (and hell even old) characters because it works pretty seamlessly once you get used to it 

[StaticMania]

14 hours ago, Soniman said:

Honestly in the next game I really do think the back special concept should be extrapolated to any new (and hell even old) characters because it works pretty seamlessly once you get used to it 

How well does it work in...not 1 vs 1?