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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - PLEASE SPOILER TAG LEAKS

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15 minutes ago, LeviTheGreat said:

ARMS was an assist trophy but yet Min Min got in!

Min Min was not an Assist Trophy, so this does nothing to suggest that Shadow has a chance to get upgraded.  The only time that's ever happened was with Little Mac, and it happened between games rather than via DLC.

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Yet the point is an ARMS character was an assist trophy.Lucas was an assist trophy for 3ds and he got in.FIre emblem has countless assist trophies and guess what you guessed it they got in.All i'm saying is anything is possible.don't forget to follow @LeviTheGreat

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16 minutes ago, LeviTheGreat said:

Lucas was an assist trophy for 3ds

The hell? No he wasn't. He was a regular trophy, not an assist trophy.

 

16 minutes ago, LeviTheGreat said:

Yet the point is an ARMS character was an assist trophy.

What you're suggesting with Shadow is an actual assist trophy character being upgraded to a DLC fighter in the same game. That is different from say, Min Min  getting in as a fighter while the less popular Spring Man is already in as an assist.

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4 hours ago, LeviTheGreat said:

Yet the point is an ARMS character was an assist trophy.Lucas was an assist trophy for 3ds and he got in.FIre emblem has countless assist trophies and guess what you guessed it they got in.All i'm saying is anything is possible.

I think you're confusing assist trophies with regular ones, at least regarding Lucas. He had a trophy before being added in as DLC, but he wasn't an assist trophy in that game. It's no different than Min Min already having a spirit (basically the equivalent to trophies) in Ultimate before her DLC.

Also Fire Emblem, as of Ultimate, only has about 3 assist trophies. And none of those assist characters (Lyn, Black Knight, Tiki) have been promoted to playable characters either.

Point is, there's nothing yet to suggest that a current assist character like Shadow can or will be upgraded to playable in Ultimate. If you really want to hope, then you're better off waiting until the next Smash game if/when that happens.

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42 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Min Min was not an Assist Trophy, so this does nothing to suggest that Shadow has a chance to get upgraded.  The only time that's ever happened was with Little Mac, and it happened between games rather than via DLC.

Dark Samus and Isabelle as well.

…On the topic of Shadow, though, he seemed like such an obvious choice for an Echo Fighter in the base game.

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49 minutes ago, LeviTheGreat said:

Yet the point is an ARMS character was an assist trophy.Lucas was an assist trophy for 3ds and he got in.FIre emblem has countless assist trophies and guess what you guessed it they got in.All i'm saying is anything is possible.don't forget to follow @LeviTheGreat

Okay, two things.

1. Stop tagging your posts telling people to follow you. It's annoying.

2. These are all terrible comparisons. ARMS is a completely different case because it was a new Nintendo game that they weren't able to include in the playable roster by the time the roster, including the initial DLC pass, was finalized months before the Switch presentation. Never mind it's not even the same character that appeared as the assist in the first place. The same exact thing happened to Xenoblade 2 and we were given Rex and Nia costumes, music tracks, and Spirits as a consolation prize. And Fire Emblem was already a staple in Smash for nineteen years and the assists are irrelevant to it getting another character included.

None of these things point to Shadow being considered for Smash at this point. That ship sailed and sank the second Shadow couldn't even make echo fighter and I don't think Nintendo cares enough to throw another Sonic character into the mix at this point. Sonic fans gotta let this shit go.

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okay,dang you didn't put on me like that.I'm just try'n to share my passion with others.Which is being a sonic fan and an actor but if you don't want that i'll leave.Just sugessting a theory not trying to cause trouble.If i caused you annoyance i'm sorry!😓

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When it comes to another Sonic character making it in, I don't think Assist Trophies are the only angle worth considering - it's important to note that Sonic is a third party rep too, and thus far the only 3rd parties with multiple reps (Ryu/Ken, Simon/Richter) are echo fighters. Even if you put aside the fact that nearly all echoes release alongside their source character, frankly I feel like that wouldn't do any potential secondary character justice. Tails would lose out on probably his most iconic trait as a recovery move, Knux will look weird with any kicking moves in his moveset, and even Shadow, who could best get away with milking out Sonic's moveset almost verbatim, still misses out on his Chaos powers for it (and before you say "just steal Mewtwo's teleport and Bayonetta's Witch Time", I should remind you that the reason that worked for Chrom is because basically all the characters he takes influence from have similar and readily sharable bone structures).

And honestly, I don't like characters setting a first impression like that, because most of them never actually move on from it. That's more evident with Ganondorf than anywhere else, considering it took seventeen years just to give him a fucking sword, yet still leaving him with a moveset that's largely referential of Captain Falcon's if not flagrantly ripping it off and changing some stats around. But it's all over the older chracters in the roster if you look far enough - Jigglypuff's main killing attack is a joke move that doesn't even have anything to do with its source material (Rest), the Fire Emblem side of the roster used one entire moveset four fucking times between Marth, Roy, Lucina and Chrom, Dark Pit still uses only two weapons he actually used in Uprising's campaign (and one of them is his final smash, so you bet most people don't even see it) and Little Mac is still stuck with with a moveset that is let's be honest, fundementally flawed from a game design perspective and encourages camping the likes of which you'd normally only see in Brawl. Hell, even Ultimate itself has Dark Samus, who has NONE of the ridiculously diverse kit she had between Metroid Prime 2 and 3 in spite of the fact that she's essentially a body double visually.

I dunno, I guess it's gotten to a point that despite moveset design for new characters being more indepth and referential than they're ever been, players never let go of attachement to the movesets that are already there, even if it's at the expense of the character in question. So I guess the point I've been rambling to make here is that one shouldn't want a character in Smash just to have another name in the roster and nothing more. And at the risk of coming off as blunt, I've never been able to get over this sense of entitlement from Sonic fans that believe they're owed anything more than what's in the game right now, especially when there's much bigger fish out there that have yet to make an apperance at all. I'm just glad Sonic is in a Smash game, guys.

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There aren't any hard rules about what can be in Smash at this point. The Assist Trophy rule sticks for now, but people used the fact that Min Min was a spirit against her before among countless other qualifiers that proved to be dead wrong in my 8 years of Smashing, so I wouldn't cling too tightly to any of that stuff.  I don't really feel like Shadow is going to be in this game, but there's little actually backing that being a feeling. I'd like to see him. 
 

24 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

 I've never been able to get over this sense of entitlement from Sonic fans that believe they're owed anything more than what's in the game right now, especially when there's much bigger fish out there that have yet to make an apperance at all. I'm just glad Sonic is in a Smash game, guys.

I think it's fine to voice discontent with a series's rep in Smash. I find it kind of hard to come at a game with this much going for it personally but this point comes at the tail end of a post complaining about movesets that are either fun in their own right or have logistical reasons for being the way they are. I personally think that Sonic's representation is a little lacking. His kit and the stages they've gone with are fine but leave something to be desired and the musical selection for such a notoriously strong sound library has some headscratching omissions.  and I don't see any problem with discussing ways they could have done it better. 

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50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I personally think that Sonic's representation is a little lacking. His kit and the stages they've gone with are fine but leave something to be desired and the musical selection for such a notoriously strong sound library has some headscratching omissions.  and I don't see any problem with discussing ways they could have done it better. 

Oh absolutely, don't get me wrong, they COULD have done better there. This was bad wording on my part - I was speaking specifically from a roster perspective and didn't mean it to be an all-encompassing statement. In that regard, I think a single rep for the series is perfectly fine.

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I think if a Sonic character was considered for an additional character rep at this point in time, they wouldn't bother with the echo fighter stuff honestly.  Let's assume the AT rule is rock solid so Knux and Shadow are out, the most likely candidates I see them going to are Tails or Amy (or, in my heart, Blaze) and while Tails might share a spinball move with Sonic I can't really think of anything else where they could graft Sonic's kit onto him and parts from other characters a la Ganondorf and call it a day. His tails and gadgets are at the core of his character, and much of it was developed from Sonic 3 through Heroes (usable flight in 3, tail swipe in SA1, thundershoot/ring bombs in Heroes, mechanical arms in Battle, etc.--I'm probably glossing over more stuff) since they've informed his other brief playable appearances. Amy really has nothing in common with Sonic and while Blaze might be somewhat similar, I think she has enough going for her that you couldn't just make her a clone outside of sharing the spindash too.

Circling back to Knux and Shadow... Knuckles is in the same boat where the only thing I think he'd share with Sonic is the spindash, everything else would (or at least should) draw from his other playable appearances. Punches, digging, gliding, etc. Shadow is a case where, back when I wanted him as an echo fighter, it made the most sense to just use Sonic's moveset with tweaks; give his f-smash extra range by letting him throw out a Chaos Spear, give his kicks a flame tipper, stuff like that. It fit as well since Shadow's initial appearance was to be a copy of Sonic anyway, so you could get away with it even if he's veered off more nowadays. If I'm honest, that would have been enough for me, but if I had to consider him outside of that, I think he has enough creative possibilities that you wouldn't need to sew extra elements onto Sonic's moveset.

Either way, I think Sonic rep is just gonna be what it is. It's fine to want more, but I think I've been pretty settled on the series not having it too badly even if it could be improved in some places (specifically I'd replace Windy Hill with an SA1/2 or even Forces stage) or a better music selection but even then Sega's hands might be tied on what they can even allow on that. At least the character himself is pretty fantastic to play and has been in every entry, but I'm a casual player.

 

3 hours ago, LeviTheGreat said:

okay,dang you didn't put on me like that.I'm just try'n to share my passion with others.Which is being a sonic fan and an actor but if you don't want that i'll leave.Just sugessting a theory not trying to cause trouble.If i caused you annoyance i'm sorry!😓

All I said was to stop asking for follows in your posts, man.

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11 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Not Eggman? A villain rep could be an interesting addition if they went there. 

In fairness those considerations are more my own bias since I don't really care about Eggman lol

Though, true, another villain would be interesting too.

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Eggman really felt like a shoe-in for a boss-styled Assist Trophy, swinging his ball and chain back and forth from Sonic 1 (especially since that made a return for Forces), but perhaps they felt he'd be too similar in style to Wily.  Knuckles made perfect sense as the second best choice for AT, although giving him the Homing Attack was a little strange.

As someone who most values stages and music in Smash, I'm definitely bummed by what Sonic got in Ultimate, but if major franchises like Kirby and Pokémon didn't get a new stage it's not like Sonic was gonna lol.  Even though Generations and Mania were of great success, it does seem like Sonic has slipped down a few notches in terms of public conciousness lately - maybe they just didn't feel he was worth the effort.  It's disappointing that there aren't any new remixes for him AGAIN but I can respect the decision that Sakurai kind of let the musicians take on whatever tracks they fancied doing (I think he mentioned that somewhere)... even if everyone on the music team ended up having massive boners for Mega Man and Castlevania music it turns out lmao.  At least the three tracks they added were sensible picks from the two games since Smash 4 but yeah, it's all still way too "main theme song" heavy.

 

As said, stages/music are the most valuable thing for me in terms of new Smash content, and Ultimate definitely comes off as a little unrepresentative for many franchises due to a similar issue to the whole "characters never grow out of their initial movesets" thing BlackLightning mentioned.  A lot of franchises are hugely represented by stages/music/assorted content that highlighted the game that had just come out for that franchise at the time of a certain Smash game's release, but that game turned out to be a bit of a footnote in the wider picture of the franchise (Gamer, Windy Hill Zone, Pac-Land (which was fine when accompanied by Pac-Man Maze on 3DS, in Smash 4's grander picture, but not so much standalone) etc.

I mean... I fully respect it would've been so much work to fill in those gaps for each franchise with either a newer stage or an obvious stage that never got picked the first time around (still SO WEIRD that there's no Bowser's Castle stage after all this time) but it's one of those annoyances that I can only appreciate when I put my entitlement aside and think about the development challenges.  As a consumer, with the game in my hands though, it just feels like stuff is missing for so many franchises, in terms of what we had come to expect to be added in each new installment.  And... Ultimate was very much sold as a new installment, not "Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo Switch", the deluxe version of Smash 4, etc.

And even following that conclusion... I still have to add the disclaimer that this post is putting a magnifying glass on a nitpick and that the amount of entertainment value I have gotten out of Ultimate has been phenomenal overall.

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Worth noting that Ultimate's subtitle in Japan is 'Special' and that's kind of informed how i view the game. A celebratory piece instead of a whole step in a new direction like Melee or Brawl were. I'm not saying it's not a mainline entry or anything, just that intentions felt different this time around. Different enough that I didn't feel it was directly comparable to most of the series. This is how I made peace with the lack of series staples like Trophies and the lack of much new content. The DLC will make the newcomer list comparable to previous games, but it was pretty small at launch and the new stage list was even smaller. Most of the series's playable content over the years is now here, refined and functioning under one roof with the trade off being there's not a whole lot of completely new content to experience.


I can forgive the stagelist because of this. It's not ideal but they would have had to give up on their angle for this game entirely to fix that issue. i also just generally prefer the stage design from melee/brawl than the more gimmicky later entries so it's easier for me to accept. The music situation..yeah, I'd prefer a stronger sense of direction on that going forward lol. We've gone from how deliberate and measured Brawl's felt to a free for all where what seems to be the most popular series among the composers wins big and everyone else starves. It's cool that they get to do what they're passionate about this time and it's not like the quality of the songs suffered any It feels petty to complain about, but it's how I feel. 

Almost every creative decision in most Smash games has some kind of explanation you can find because Sakurai is so transparent. It makes it easier for me to find peace with a lot of what the games do wrong and focus on everything they do well, but sometimes I wonder if I would mince my words less if I wasn't so fond of the guy. Is a consumer that hasn't been hanging onto his every word since 2007 misinformed, or are they just able to see the uneven nature of Ultimate for what it really is?

Another Smash game that focuses more on the new than the old could fix a lot of these issues in one swift motion, but I can't  see it happening with most of the fandom being so invested in legacy content. A lot of Smash Ultimate's creative direction is influenced by fan demands that I remember clear as day from the Smash 4 era and they were rewarded immensely for it. That, and there's no way to get around the fact that the target audience of kids is just going to get a massive amount of completely new experiences anyway. It almost feels like a waste to try something different. I can't see us breaking away from this direction unless the team really want to leave their own mark on the next game.

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I’m just kinda curious on this. Since TWEWY 2 got announced a bit ago, if Square were to get another character in, who do you think would be the most likely at this point? Lara Croft, Geno, Sora, or Neku? As much as I want to see Sora get in, can’t lie, he’s got a ton of hurdles to jump over, and TWEWY is such a loved series, that it getting a massive open world styled console experience makes me think Square are putting a lot of attention and effort in that series suddenly. I wouldn’t mind at all seeing Neku with a Shibuya stage one bit. But this all runs of the assumption we’d get another square rep. Only thing I’ve seen in favor of that theory is the fact we’ve gotten multiple Square spirit events, but that doesn’t “prove” this, so it’s just a waiting game. 
 

There was that “leak” a few days ago about Sora, but pretty sure those images are fake. Says Sora will get announced at TGA’s so least it has a timer on it and will probably get killed soon 

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49 minutes ago, KHCast said:

There was that “leak” a few days ago about Sora, but pretty sure those images are fake. Says Sora will get announced at TGA’s so least it has a timer on it and will probably get killed soon 

I still personally don't find Sora as hard to believe in when Minecraft Steve and Banjo got in. Those were characters people regularly said would never get in due to the legalities behind them, and it still happened.

I could see Disney being iffy to allow stuff like Donald, Goofy, Mickey and so on, but if the deal was solely for Sora and the KH original characters, I could see them being more lenient at least.

also if it happens and my boy roxas doesn't get in as an echo or alt costume, i ain't gonna be happy.

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