Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - DADDY SAKURAI'S WILD RIDE HAS CONCLUDED

[KHCast]

Sora or Dante could have been the one they went with, and the “anime swordsman” reaction, no matter how wanted they were, would have been similar, it’d just be different groups saying it. Just sayin, you’re not gonna please everyone at this point and widespread bitching is inevitable regardless of who it is thanks to social media. We still got 2 characters left, so who knows, those mad now, may be singing praises come next reveal, that’s typically how this works nowadays with smash 

[Winston]

11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

A lot of video game characters use swords

A lot of video game characters also uses fists and guns, so I don't see why that has much relevance here. It's not like an overwhelming majority of video game characters use swords to the extent of where it's nearly impossible for anyone other than a sword user to get into Smash. Nintendo chooses swordfighters quite a lot, and it's not really uncalled for to see people getting sick of them when they're released like they are. I don't see the harm in changing the order around so we don't get multiple sword users in a row. Maybe it has something to do with how they get the rights to the characters or something, I have no idea, but I certainly wouldn't have minded if the releases went Byleth, Min Min, Sephiroth, Steve, and then Pyra. 

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Winston said:

A lot of video game characters also uses fists and guns, so I don't see why that has much relevance here. It's not like an overwhelming majority of video game characters use swords to the extent of where it's nearly impossible for anyone other than a sword user to get into Smash. Nintendo chooses swordfighters quite a lot, and it's not really uncalled for to see people getting sick of them when they're released like they are. I don't see the harm in changing the order around so we don't get multiple sword users in a row. Maybe it has something to do with how they get the rights to the characters or something, I have no idea, but I certainly wouldn't have minded if the releases went Byleth, Min Min, Sephiroth, Steve, and then Pyra. 

Well, what do you know, a lot of Smash characters also use fists and guns! The overwhelming majority of Smash Bros characters actually just fight with their hands if you do the math. They just don't get grouped together while the sword characters do for reasons I could not fathom in 2014, couldn't fathom in 2016, and can't fathom now. 

We literally did not get multiple sword users in a row because Steve isn't a sword user. Even if we did, every single DLC character has been functionally completely different from the last and has brought something new to the game. Isn't this more important than an aesthetic detail like "holds sword"?

[Sonictrainer]

We got some official art by Masatsugu Saito

 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

We literally did not get multiple sword users in a row because Steve isn't a sword user. Even if we did, every single DLC character has been functionally completely different from the last and has brought something new to the game. Isn't this more important than an aesthetic detail like "holds sword"?

Apparently it needs to be said again - referring to Steve as a sword-welder was a joke, because he technically used one. But the fact remains his moveset is made up of completely different things than just holding a sword for a few animations.

My actual point was the fact that out of the last five characters - three of them (Byleth, Pyra and Sephiroth) all have primarily used swords as part of their moveset, and three of which have been characters with similar art-styles from RPGs. I don't particularly mind them being present, but as Winston said - shuffling around the roster to not make it as evident wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Bringing new ideas to the game isn't that bad in of itself (although I have to wonder how different they really are, given changing characters mid-game was a thing since Brawl, Min-Min already covered the long distance fighter aspect that Sephiroth covers - Byleth's the only one I think truly brings something 100% new with the three different weapons), and I think it's kinda an eh point when they're using characters with similar styles, from similar games, and with chunks of their movesets being similarly to other sword-users. If you aren't really interested in anime-inspired RPGs, I think it's reasonable to feel burnt out by the sword-using RPG characters at this point.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Byleth, Pyra and Sephiroth

8 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

three of which have been characters with similar art-styles from RPGs

Ehhh, this ain't it.

 

[Winston]

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Well, what do you know, a lot of Smash characters also use fists and guns! The overwhelming majority of Smash Bros characters actually just fight with their hands if you do the math. They just don't get grouped together while the sword characters do for reasons I could not fathom in 2014, couldn't fathom in 2016, and can't fathom now. 

We literally did not get multiple sword users in a row because Steve isn't a sword user. Even if we did, every single DLC character has been functionally completely different from the last and has brought something new to the game. Isn't this more important than an aesthetic detail like "holds sword"?

I think like only eight characters in the entire series use guns, or lasers. There are like fourteen that use swords. I guess you've got me there with fist fighters, there are plenty of them in the series, and many of them can be combined with the gun/laser using characters. I personally don't really enjoy sword users because I'm bored of them to be frank, and I personally feel their moveset potential just isn't as interesting as characters that use other means of attack. I'll give Byleth credit for trying to diversify the moveset. And no, I obviously did not say Steve was a swordfighter. I was just listing him as a way to diversify the release order, putting a character without a sword between characters with swords.

Another issue with this is a majority of the characters come from the Fire Emblem franchise, which obviously makes it grow tiring seeing several of the same looking characters with the exact same weapon being added into Smash. I don't think people would complain about the overuse of swordfighters if that series wasn't given as many reps as it was. People can absolutely love it all they want, but the people that don't care for this series at all are going to quickly grow sick of seeing that franchise getting so many representatives, and yes, they will absolutely point out the sword the majority of that roster uses as a negative.

I wasn't even arguing in that post that swordfighters should be withheld either, even if I do find them boring and would prefer it, I was saying that the release order for the fighters should be re-arranged. I guess the characters have been different and aren't the exact same, even if I don't enjoy their moveset. I'm personally sick myself of getting nothing but human characters, or human looking characters. That's my biggest disappointment, even more than sword users. Out of all the Smash games with DLC, only five characters have been non-humanoid, while twelve have. 

[Teoskaven]

16 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

We got some official art by Masatsugu Saito

 

 

I missed these, i wish each newcomer got one like in Smash 4.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Ehhh, this ain't it.

 

How is it not? 

If you aren't a particularly big fan of RPGs, it's incredibly easy to get burnt out on so many characters from them being added to the game in such a short period of time. That's obviously a subjective opinionated matter, but it isn't any less or more correct than someone who enjoys all of the sword-welders and RPG characters being added.

I'm not even suggesting cutting the characters or removing them outright or anything, but simply changing around the character's release dates a bit to not have made it feel so blatant. I main Sephiroth, so obviously I don't want any of them out and out removed from the game.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Winston said:

I wasn't even arguing in that post that swordfighters should be withheld either, even if I do find them boring and would prefer it, I was saying that the release order for the fighters should be re-arranged. 

 

14 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

My actual point was the fact that out of the last five characters - three of them (Byleth, Pyra and Sephiroth) all have primarily used swords as part of their moveset, and three of which have been characters with similar art-styles from RPGs. I don't particularly mind them being present, but as Winston said - shuffling around the roster to not make it as evident wouldn't have been a bad idea.

 

I'm just not really sure what this actually does, functionally. One or both of the next two characters could be sword characters. It would also be completely justified because there are a lot of sword users that would be unique additions to smash that aren't in the game yet. 

 

[Winston]

Just now, Wraith said:

 

I'm just not really sure what this actually does, functionally. One or both of the next two characters could be sword characters. It would also be completely justified because there are a lot of sword users that would be unique additions to smash that aren't in the game yet. 

 

I think having a character break between a user with a sword and a user without one would help diversify it a bit. You're right though, the rest of the pass could absolutely be swordfighters so there'd be no point in it anyway. I really don't know who is getting in next, but if we do get one more swordfighter and one more that isn't, then I would have preferred that method at least. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

How is it not? 

"Similar art styles"? Dude, each of their games are distinct to the point where I have to tilt my head at claiming they look similar to each other.

 

5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If you aren't a particularly big fan of RPGs, it's incredibly easy to get burnt out on so many characters from them being added to the game in such a short period of time. That's obviously a subjective opinionated matter, but it isn't any less or more correct than someone who enjoys all of the sword-welders and RPG characters being added.

I think, fan or not, these characters are different and unique enough in their own regards. Byleth's iffy for obvious reasons of course, but Sephiroth and the Blade girls are fine enough in conjunction with each other. They have distinguishing features that don't make them feel homogenous and enough a breather.

 

7 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm not even suggesting cutting the characters or removing them outright or anything, but simply changing around the character's release dates a bit to not have made it feel so blatant. I main Sephiroth, so obviously I don't want any of them out and out removed from the game.

Depending on who we get there may have been reason for how things were released, but I can agree that perhaps moving around the fighters a bit might have helped.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

12 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

"Similar art styles"? Dude, each of their games are distinct to the point where I have to tilt my head at claiming they look similar to each other.

Then that's just gonna have to be a point we agree to disagree on, because all three of them have a very similar anime-inspired art-style to me. Xeno's is a bit more cel-shaded, but there's similar design cues between all three, just like how many different anime series have similarities to each other in artstyle and design. I very obviously don't think it's a 1:1 style, but I think they're similar enough that if you aren't a huge fan of the series in play, it is very easy to feel burnt out on so many appearing at once, hence why I said it'd have been better to shuffle the roster around a bit more.

12 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think, fan or not, these characters are different and unique enough in their own regards. Byleth's iffy for obvious reasons of course, but Sephiroth and the Blade girls are fine enough in conjunction with each other. They have distinguishing features that don't make them feel homogenous and enough a breather.

No, I don't think Byleth's very iffy at all. If anything, they're the one who brings the most new to the table by bringing in several very different weapons and being able to change their approach as to how they fight. They can act as a nible sword-user, they can turn themselves into a heavier fighter via the hammer, including super armour into the deal, and acting like long-range characters like Link and Pit with the arrow. I frankly can't think of another fighter who can reasonable switch between niches like they can. 

As heavily overused as Fire Emblem is in general, I'd argue that's the most unique new thing brought to the table via the DLC, compared to other characters who combine different aspects together (Sephiroth's transformation (Joker) + long range attacks (Min-Min)) and the blade girls (Character swapping from Brawl + from what it looks like - Shulk's smash mode with the fire blade).

12 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Depending on who we get there may have been reason for how things were released, but I can agree that perhaps moving around the fighters a bit might have helped.

I'm just going to state it again - I'm not asking for any of these characters to be cut from the game. As I've said, I main Sephiroth, so it's not as if I just want him cut for the simple fact of being a sword-user, but I feel completely burnt out on these characters. Frankly, I just want the final two characters to be more diverse in terms of series/genre representation. 

I still think an overall shuffle of FP1 might've alleviated it a bit (I still think Byleth should've been way earlier in the pack, because their presence as the cap-off to FP1 sent FP2 off into a bit of a unfair staggered start compared to FP1), so that plays into it. I think Byleth's position in general had an effect that might've been rectified if hypothetically - they'd been swapped with someone earlier, and then possibly Sephiroth or Min-Min remained as FP2's kick-off.

[dbzfan7]

Is it tired of sword users or is it tired of it not being Dante/Sora/Lloyd/Ryu the specific sword users. I wouldn't say that's for everyone of course, but I do feel the sword complaint would drop by a lot if it's certain sword users rather than an unwanted sword user.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

11 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Is it tired of sword users or is it tired of it not being Dante/Sora/Lloyd/Ryu the specific sword users. I wouldn't say that's for everyone of course, but I do feel the sword complaint would drop by a lot if it's certain sword users rather than an unwanted sword user.

More so burnt out on the same kind of style/genre representation personally, and just want to see another genre rep at this point. I was hoping hard for Sora before Sephiroth was announced, but I'm accepted he's probably not gonna be getting in at this point, and if he did get in, I could get why people would say they're tired of another sword-user.

I'm not a particularly big DMC fan, but I've played through DMC 1-3 and feel like it'd be trickier to determine because Dante doesn't just use a sword, he's got things like the Beowulf gauntlet/armour, ice nunchucks, his arsenal of guns. I could see some people consider him another anime sword guy, but others seeing him as a blend of a sword-welder, and a gun-user, who have far less representatives in the game (Much like how Snake uses both his fists and various guns/mines in his moveset). If they made him equal measures a sword-welder and a gun-user, I could see him get some leeway. Given Ryu and Ken got Street Fighter adapted into Smash, they'd likely try to adapt Dante's combos/hack n slash gameplay into Smash too. They could even maybe give him a style rating or something beside his percent meter depending on his combos.

I'm not the biggest DMC expert out there though, so I'm not sure. Lloyd and Ryu would probably fall under the sword-user overabundance I'd imagine, unless there's a way to really make them stick out compared to the rest.

[Wraith]

Dante has adopted every fighting style under the sun but that detail probably wouldn't matter because the sword fighter complaint has never had much regard for anything beyond surface level traits, and Dante is usually posing with some kind of sword, whether it be Rebellion or Sparta. Same with Sora really. I see him lumped in with these characters a lot despite having access to a lot of wacky weapon types as of KH3. 

The swordfighter thing is just a roundabout way to complain about not getting the guy you wanted. I would rather hear what people actually wanted to see instead so I can get a better idea of what "genre diversity" means to them. People usually want one of the platforming mascots that aren't already in the game yet and not something niche like rhythm game representative or something. 

[dbzfan7]

13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

More so burnt out on the same kind of style/genre representation personally, and just want to see another genre rep at this point. I was hoping hard for Sora before Sephiroth was announced, but I'm accepted he's probably not gonna be getting in at this point, and if he did get in, I could get why people would say they're tired of another sword-user.

I'm not a particularly big DMC fan, but I've played through DMC 1-3 and feel like it'd be trickier to determine because Dante doesn't just use a sword, he's got things like the Beowulf gauntlet/armour, ice nunchucks, his arsenal of guns. I could see some people consider him another anime sword guy, but others seeing him as a blend of a sword-welder, and a gun-user, who have far less representatives in the game (Much like how Snake uses both his fists and various guns/mines in his moveset). If they made him equal measures a sword-welder and a gun-user, I could see him get some leeway. Given Ryu and Ken got Street Fighter adapted into Smash, they'd likely try to adapt Dante's combos/hack n slash gameplay into Smash too. They could even maybe give him a style rating or something beside his percent meter depending on his combos.

I'm not the biggest DMC expert out there though, so I'm not sure. Lloyd and Ryu would probably fall under the sword-user overabundance I'd imagine, unless there's a way to really make them stick out compared to the rest.

I mean I like Dante and Devil May Cry and would totally be hyped if he got in, but I just find it a bit hypocritical is all this sort of complaint when I feel the genuine complaint more so boils down to it not being who is wanted. Dante is primarily a sword fighter. He has other weapons but by the end of the day it's primarily sword with some gun focus. Not to mention the choices are likely between multiple styles or weapons and I think mixing between SWORDTRICKGUNROYALGUARD!!! would be the better choice.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I do kinda get the feeling that if it were someone like Dante or Sora there'd be faaar less complaining.

[Kuzu]

Smash Bros. is at a point where anybody being added is going to piss someone off, because everyone's expectations are different. I don't really see much value in arguing about this inclusion, because anyone that wasn't your specific pick would have upset people. 

Sephiroth is literally one of the most iconic villains in video games and we still get these same complaints. Smash fans can, and will continue to be unreasonable until the end of time. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

The swordfighter thing is just a roundabout way to complain about not getting the guy you wanted. I would rather hear what people actually wanted to see instead so I can get a better idea of what "genre diversity" means to them. People usually want one of the platforming mascots that aren't already in the game yet and not something niche like rhythm game representative or something. 

Alright then, I'll leave the sword-welder complaints at the door and more so go for style/genre, as I'm beginning to realise my complaints is more so beginning to rest at similar styles and genre rep than swords in general, even if they go hand in hand a bit. At this point, I think I've more or less made it clear it's just a burn-out issue for me more so than just not wanting sword users in general.

Dante - As I said, I'm not particularly a big DMC fan, I just find it alright from finishing DMC 1, 2 and 3, but from what I've played, I genuinely think he could add something massively new to Smash. DMC has this interesting blend of gothic, and dark while completely insane and over the top that I think it would stand out more.

More over - I think they could potentially pull a Ken/Ryu and adapt DMC's combat into Smash a bit. Diversify Dante's weapon selection, give him access to a fun line-up of his weapons from the various games. Give him stuff like the ice-nunchucks and Beowulf armour from DMC3, give him various weaponry, and make him a juggler who might not do much in raw damage, but can absolutely rack it up via combos, and maybe even put a style rating next to Dante's player icon, like how Joker has a Persona-styled bar that ramps up to show when he can get Arsene. I think Dante could be more like Byleth where he can swap to different styles via weaponry, plus introduce an adapted kind of style for Smash (Hack n Slash).

Crash - I think his moveset could just be super unique in general. You could take the easy route and include some of his Titans moves (IE - general punches/kicks), but I think it'd be more interesting if his moveset was focused down on his core moves in the series. Neutral move could simply be a spin that you can then mash to continually spin and damage an enemy (IE - A super spin). Throw the belly flop in there, his slide kick, potentially the triple spin from Crash 4. Add in the power-ups and gadgets like the fruit bazooka, the jet pack, and such, I think there's more than enough for a unique moveset in there. Plus if they went for Crash 4's artstyle, I think it'd stand out as the most lush and cartoony style, compared to even the other platforming mascots like Sonic, Pac-Man and Mario.

Puyo Rep - I can't claim to be the biggest Puyo Puyo fan, as my experience starts and stops with Mean Bean Machine, plus the crossover Tetris titles, but I think Puyo would be one of the best chances to give a completely new genre a shot in the game. Puzzle games have little to no representation other than Dr. Mario, and even at that, Dr. Mario borrows such a huge chunk from Mario's moveset that it's a bit of a moot point. Puyo's got a fairly long history that spans Nintendo consoles and more, so I think it'd be worthy of such a slot too.

Puyo also has a really unique 2D artstyle, and I think it's like Minecraft in that you could potentially use some aspects of the series in someone like Arle's attacks. Not only from their magical spells, but working in things like garbage Puyos and Puyo stacking in order to buff the rep would be interesting too. I could even see a double rep if they decided to do a Puyo Puyo Tetris type deal and include both a Puyo rep and maybe Tee, and have them swap in and out like Pyra and Mythra. Idk, I just feel like the puzzle genre is critically underepped, especially given how big a presense they had on some of Nintendo's older consoles.

Phoenix Wright/Edgeworth - Visual Novels are completely unrepresented in Smash's roster, and while I get why (it's difficult to create someone like that from scratch), I think Phoenix (along with Edgeworth as an echo) has more than enough present to actually make up a interesting moveset, since both Marvel VS Capcom 3 and Project X Zone 2 did it. Ace Attorney, while being a serious series is still a bit out there, and I think it's fun how in their movesets, they always feel the need to think outside of the box in order to make up a actual moveset, taking mundane things and changing it into attacks for the characters to use.

I think for uniqueness sake, you could take a few things from UMvC3 (IE - you could take the evidence gathering aspect, and potentially buff Phoenix/Edgeworth upon finding three pieces), while also giving their moves some more versatility. Stuff like having "Hold it!" bubbles that acts as a grab, or "Take That!" being used as a smash attack ala Sephiroth's long-sword. Maya, and Kay could be called in for assist attacks (Maya's level 1 from UMvC3 for example). It sounds really weird, but it's been done twice over now in two separate fighting crossover titles, and I think Ace Attorney hits a two-fold of both representing a genre important to Nintendo consoles (Visual Novels, which had a big role on the DS), while also representing a third party title that has been associated with Nintendo for ages.

----------------------

As I said, at this point, it's more so me wanting to see more genres getting representation, and perhaps unique fighting styles being integrated than what I initially thought the issue was (sword-fighters in general). 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

New banner update.

[JezMM]

As long as sword users all feel different to each other I don't really care what animation plays when I push the A button, at the end of the day every character is just a "hit box user", the model that flings out when that hit box activates really doesn't matter that much lol.  Every DLC character has felt wildly different to what came before even with half of them being sword users, I've no reason to doubt Pyra and Mythra will be any different.

Also they're just cute as hell designs, why the heck are you nerds looking at their swords.

 

I haven't actually played Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (doesn't look like my cup of tea, I intend to buy it to enjoy the story when it's a bit cheaper) but I adore the character designs and music so I'm really happy to get some more of that in Smash.

[Salamander]

Pyra/Mythra's intro trailer really led me around by the nose.  The instant it opened I assumed it would be Smash, but then it started to look as if it had an actual plotline, and I was considering that it might be more Xenoblade 2 DLC, or even Xenoblade 2-2 or something silly like that... but then, no, it was Smash after all!  I find it hard to be too annoyed, given that Sakurai has openly stated in the past that he wanted Rex and Pyra in the game; difficult to object to the man doing what he wants.

I have a lot of sympathy for the "anime swordsman" complaints, but it seems to me that the last few Smash characters, despite all being nominal swordwielders, are quite stylistically different (hugely so, in Steve's case), and while I can't make a comment about their gameplay then they certainly exude a very different feel, a different atmosphere.  It seems like it's only really Byleth who felt like too much in that regard, to the extent that even their reveal trailer commented on the "too many swordfighters" criticism (which Sakurai subsequently admitted was accurate, along with there being too many Fire Emblem characters); but at the end of the day, Byleth was very samey, whether or not it's true that they were whipped up to replace a scrapped Monster Hunter rep.  But at the end of the day, there are a lot of swordfighters in video games, and RPG characters especially are pretty easy to construct as Smash characters.

I think it's fair to hope for the next character to be radically different, though.  Of course, there is the looming spectre of a Gen. 8 Pokemon which feels so inevitable that people are more or less dreading it; and for all that most people feel that Gen. 8's problem wasn't the Pokemon themselves, it's hard not to say that Cinderace feels like the obvious but also the most generic pick.  If we are getting a Pokemon, hopefully it will be something a little more off-the-wall.

At the end of the day, I admit I've got no real skin in the game, though.  I haven't even played Smash or most of the games in the DLC!  I'm just interested in developments.

[Tracker_TD]

Ironically I've kind of lost hope for Arle at this point lol. But all I really want is another slightly deeper-cut character, something like Terry again. A Treasure rep would be neat, perhaps. But at this point I'm along for the ride. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Kind of a shame that Rex didn't get to show up in the banner alongside Pyra and Mythra like Morgana does.