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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - PLEASE SPOILER TAG LEAKS

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Watch again. As mentioned, his own video points out around the 3:43 mark that Sonic's Dtilt is influenced by the Fighters equivalent, and yet simultaneously a ripoff of Mario's because... reasons? Utilt is too, as a variant of the second motion of Skip Kick, which isn't quite as clear cut but the influence still shows. I can't help but facepalm at the rest of it. Seriously, who can lay an honest claim to the idea of kicking backwards?

This isn't a Ganon-esque case where Sonic's influences are completely contradictary to his character and his mechanics - he's best known for rolling and agility, and his moveset has that in spades. At worst it's similarities in moves and characters with similar focuses, which... kind of goes without saying? At least if you'd pointed out the dual spindash specials specifically you'd have an actual point.

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Similar -looking animations =/= recycled animations. There's a difference. Animations are sometimes recycled between characters who have the same, or at least similarly-proportioned skeletons on their model. Sonic's u-tilt, f-air and d-tilt are all unique in that regard.

He may or may not share Wolf's u-Smash animation for his u-air, but it's hard to say. Likewise, Wolf is believed to have Diddy's exact d-air. I think someone did a video on this years ago, showing off the skeletons in an emulator, but I can't find it. Either way, I don't really consider that poor treatment. Plenty of characters recycle animations. Not even counting the clones (or semi-clones), incidental actions like activating an assist trophy, shrinking and growing with a mushroom, etc are commonly reused, especially among humanoid fighters. 

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3 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:
6 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

...that same video also makes a point of mentioning most of those same moves are inspired by Fighters. Come on man, seriously?

Yeah seriously. I'm not talking about the moves inspired by Fighters. 

Sorry to say,  but with logic like that,  you're really straw grasping.

3 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:
6 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

...that same video also makes a point of mentioning most of those same moves are inspired by Fighters. Come on man, seriously?

Yeah seriously. I'm not talking about the moves inspired by Fighters. 

Sorry to say,  but with logic like that,  you're really straw grasping.

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Sonic still only has one remix for a song, I really hope they change that this time (since Mega Man got quite a few).

He also has recycled voice lines taken from Colors and Generations, I think... Except for his surfacing water voice line, which is still Jason Griffith. So uh, hopefully he gets new voice lines and they just haven't recorded them yet.

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2 hours ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

Sonic still only has one remix for a song, I really hope they change that this time (since Mega Man got quite a few).

He also has recycled voice lines taken from Colors and Generations, I think... Except for his surfacing water voice line, which is still Jason Griffith. So uh, hopefully he gets new voice lines and they just haven't recorded them yet.

To be fair, a lot of music from the Sonic games already have great quality, what’s the point in remixing it? Most music from Mega Man was lower quality anyways, which explains why a lot of it was remixed.

I agree Green Hill Zone could use a remix, but most of the Sonic music have vocal tracks, like Live and Learn, Reach For The Stars, Open Your Heart, etc. Honestly, the Sonic stages have some of the best unlockable tracks in the games, because they were good to begin with, and didn’t need remixing.

If anything, Cloud has it the worst, with the limited number of  low res tracks from FF7. That music just doesn’t match the look of Midgar at all. The stage would be more fitting with more orchestric action music. If anything, Midgar needed more remixes or tracks from later games, like FFX and FFXIII.

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14 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

To be fair, a lot of music from the Sonic games already have great quality, what’s the point in remixing it? Most music from Mega Man was lower quality anyways, which explains why a lot of it was remixed.

I agree Green Hill Zone could use a remix, but most of the Sonic music have vocal tracks, like Live and Learn, Reach For The Stars, Open Your Heart, etc. Honestly, the Sonic stages have some of the best unlockable tracks in the games, because they were good to begin with, and didn’t need remixing.

If anything, Cloud has it the worst, with the limited number of  low res tracks from FF7. That music just doesn’t match the look of Midgar at all. The stage would be more fitting with more orchestric action music. If anything, Midgar needed more remixes or tracks from later games, like FFX and FFXIII.

They are good to begin with but I still want remixes, especially from other artists. That's one of my favorite things about Smash remixes. Like the Vega Stage music getting a cool violin heavy version from Yoko Shimomura, of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts fame. Or the Splatoon song getting remixes by Tomoya Ohtani, who does Sonic music, funnily enough.

I've heard Open Your Heart and Live & Learn a billion times, and it's a little old at this point regardless of how good they are. They could just remix some non-vocal songs.

I do think Cloud has it worse but at the same time he almost seemed rushed to begin with.

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17 hours ago, StaticMania said:

The animations aren't recycled...

That just means they're the same...

Yeah, my bad. That's what I meant, reusing animations instead of making unique ones for Sonic. But people said that other characters got the same treatment too so just ignore my points.

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12 hours ago, SpongicX said:

If anything, Cloud has it the worst, with the limited number of  low res tracks from FF7. That music just doesn’t match the look of Midgar at all. The stage would be more fitting with more orchestric action music. If anything, Midgar needed more remixes or tracks from later games, like FFX and FFXIII.

Tracks from the Compilation would work, especially a remix of One-Winged Angel. pulling from Advent Children Complete, Crisis Core, and the Reunion tracks. Another I can see would be the Bombing Mission, seeing as part of it was in Cloud's reveal trailer for Sm4sh, mainly the opening fanfare or perhaps Cloud's actual theme, the FFVII Main Theme (using the Highwind version).  And a real big addition would be the Final Fantasy Theme

Theatrhythm managed to pull it off with the version from FFXII.  As far as other Final Fantasy tracks, I can think of the inclusion of the Battle with Golbez's Four Fiends, Clash on the Big Bridge, Dancing Mad (Phase 4), or even Maybe I'm a Lion.

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The recent post on TSS prompted me to write some thoughts on Shadow.

I do think Shadow has a good shot at being playable in this game, but being a full-on clone of Sonic is the only chance he has. I get that he has different abilities than Sonic and that making him exactly the same wouldn't be true to the character, but the same could be said for Dark Pit, Lucina, and arguably Daisy. Making Shadow a semi-clone (as in giving him some completely new moves) would defeat the purpose of the whole Echo Fighter concept, which is to add a few new, decently popular characters while using as little development time as possible. The dev time they would spend making these characters unique would be better spent on more interesting and justifiably unique newcomers.

If anything, I could see them giving Shadow some stat differences from Sonic. Maybe he would have slightly less speed and weaker recovery, but more damage and knockback on his attacks, akin to Dr. Mario. I also think it'd be fair to expect some minor animation and effect changes (skating instead of running, energy effects on some of his moves, etc).

On another note, the TSS post mentioned this widespread assumption that "there can’t be more than one playable Sonic character in Smash". I won't deny that it isn't an established rule, but I do think there's some sense to it. After all, Sonic is already in the game, and any side character they could add, even one as popular as Shadow, would never elicit the same kind of response as the main star of the franchise. Most of the Sonic fans you could bring in to Smash were already grabbed when Sonic was added, and Shadow would bring in a couple more. This applies to any other third-party series in Smash, too. Wouldn't it make more sense instead to secure any of the remaining third-party giants like Simon Belmont, Crash Bandicoot, even Bomberman were he not already deconfirmed, and bring in an entirely new fanbase, thus ensuring more sales? I dunno.

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The only move change I can see Shadow getting is Chaos Control instead of Spring, and even then it'd just be Farore's Wind reskinned anyway.

 

Quote

On another note, the TSS post mentioned this widespread assumption that "there can’t be more than one playable Sonic character in Smash". I won't deny that it isn't an established rule, but I do think there's some sense to it. After all, Sonic is already in the game, and any side character they could add, even one as popular as Shadow, would never elicit the same kind of response as the main star of the franchise.

This exactly. Multiple characters from the same first-party franchise has never been stated to be a thing that can't happen. The problem, though, is that for third-party franchises, is that they'd likely be more looking to bringing in other third-party franchises instead of expanding existing ones with lesser known characters. They chose the biggest ones for a reason. Its always the most well known and iconic character from that franchise.

If they're looking to add more third-party characters, it makes ten times more sense to push for other franchises instead of adding another character from an existing franchise.

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I just think that if we're gonna put in Shadow as a 3rd party Echo, I think the rest of the 3rd parties should at least be given a fair consideration for one of their own. That's easy for some of them. Ken or Akuma over Ryu. Jeanne over Bayonetta. Raiden over Snake. I don't feel like Sonic should be given special treatment just because he's been in Smash longer.

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2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Pirate Ridley said:

I do have to wonder...is it possible for a character to be an echo fighter of a playable character from a different franchise?

That's basically what Ganondorf was for the better part of 3 generations. Everyone hated it.

I can't imagine two franchises that have characters so similar that they're so interchangeable. All that comes to mind is a Mighty #9 rep, and lol at the chances of that.

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19 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

I just think that if we're gonna put in Shadow as a 3rd party Echo, I think the rest of the 3rd parties should at least be given a fair consideration for one of their own. That's easy for some of them. Ken or Akuma over Ryu. Jeanne over Bayonetta. Raiden over Snake. I don't feel like Sonic should be given special treatment just because he's been in Smash longer.

I don't think it's about special treatment, it's just that Shadow is more popular and has actually been decently requested compared to any of those other characters. I doubt there's a large demand for Jeanne or Raiden. Personally the only other third-party echo I could seriously see is X over Mega Man, although I'm not familiar enough with the series to say if that even makes sense.

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Shadow being an echo fighter sounded like a possibility at first, but right now I'm leaning toward him either still being an assist trophy or cut outright. 

Knuckles might just be replacing him, especially considering the more "active" approach they're taking with assists this time, with a number of ATs you can KO for points. They really might have just decided to scrap Shadow since they didn't need another passive assist that just replicates an existing item's effect. They've already retired more interesting ATs than him. 

1 hour ago, Nast said:

Personally the only other third-party echo I could seriously see is X over Mega Man, although I'm not familiar enough with the series to say if that even makes sense.

That wouldn't be faithful considering all of Mega Man's special weapons are from the classic games,  nor would it be very plausible since X's model has very different proportions and couldn't really use a lot of existing animations. 

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Echo Fighters are characters that have identical speed, height, and weight to the characters they are based on. It's the reason Doctor Mario and Pichu are not Echo Fighters. If Shadow were to be an Echo Fighter, he would have identical mobility stats and size to Sonic.

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10 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

I just think that if we're gonna put in Shadow as a 3rd party Echo, I think the rest of the 3rd parties should at least be given a fair consideration for one of their own. That's easy for some of them. Ken or Akuma over Ryu. Jeanne over Bayonetta. Raiden over Snake. I don't feel like Sonic should be given special treatment just because he's been in Smash longer.

He and Snake were already given special treatment when they were the first included in Brawl, though. I definitely think he's more deserving of a second rep than any of the others and appearing in three games is one of those reasons. He was the most requested, the biggest reason SEGA stood a chance as rival to Nintendo back in the day and has a popular character who fits the description of an Echo Fighter. Sonic's important enough that he and Mario did a mini-game crossover.

Meanwhile, I certainly don't believe any third party that barely made it into the last one is anywhere as suitable. As for Snake, his return feels like enough fan service for a character who many consider a strange addition in the first place. I don't know why people think of it as unfair, as though every franchise should be treated the same. That's not how Smash has ever worked.

As for adding in characters to bring in more players.... I don't think their popularity needs to be anywhere near that of the main rep of the franchise to justify an Echo Fighter, as they simply don't require the same development time to make. Shadow's inclusion would likely draw in some Sonic fans who wouldn't ordinarily buy Smash, especially since the extended cast are rarely playable these days, even if the numbers wouldn't be super notable.

Having said all that, I don't think Shadow's a shoe-in at all. Sonic could have two assist trophies or Knuckles might simply have replaced Shadow. I just think that if any one third party franchise received a second rep, that Sonic would be the one and that it would make sense.

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Okay I'm not sure if it's because I worded it weirdly or because people aren't reading into it right, but either way I don't quite think the message I intended to convey got through. I'm not asking for 3rd parties to be treated equally, just to be given consideration for echoes of their own. You guys are absolutely right, not every one of them warrants an echo. That's not what actually I'm asking for.

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I agree that Sonic should not get a special treatment, Echo Fighters allow for more playable characters after all, it's why we are considering Shadow in the first place. Plus the ballot confirmed that there is demand for more Sonic characters than any other Third Party series. It's possible they have listened.

With that said, the article mentions that there are semi Echo Fighters, I think and hope that's where Shadow fits. My moveset for Shadow:

Standard Special: Homing attack - Shadow style (yellow aura, some teleportation to the point where he attacks enemies)

Down Special: Spin Dash (red or yellow aura, same as Sonic)

Side Special: Shadow Kick/Chaos Spear (throws a lightning or kicks using Chaos Powers)

Up Special: Chaos Control (same as Farore's Wind)

Final Smash: Super Shadow (same as Super Sonic)

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If Shadow is an assist trophy again, then I hope they give him chaos blast, instead of that lousy version of chaos control he had in the past entries. He was basically a clone of the stop watch. It would have been cooler to see him use chaos control to warp around, kick opponents, and use chaos spear.

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Shadow is one of my most wanted characters for Smash, and I've been hoping for his inclusion since Brawl.

But honestly if he's still an assist or just not in at all, my reaction would probably be "aw, that's too bad", and I'd go on with my life. 3rd party characters have a smaller chance of getting into Smash compared to Nintendo characters, so I usually have my expectations pretty low when it comes to them joining. As excited as I would be were he announced as a playable character, I wouldn't be disappointed if he wasn't in.

Now Isaac from Golden Sun on the other hand... I'd be a bit bummed if he wasn't one of the new characters, hehe.

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21 hours ago, JaidynReiman said:

The only move change I can see Shadow getting is Chaos Control instead of Spring, and even then it'd just be Farore's Wind reskinned anyway.

It'd be more like Mewtwo's teleport actually...because it does no damage.

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