Freedom Fighters' own Series

[RedFox99]

So, this has been an idea that most likely a lot of people have had in the past: what if the FFs got their own Series detached from Sonic?

I would imagine that the premise wiuld be relavetily the same as SatAM and the early comics instead of Robotnik, Naugus would be the main villain with Snivley as the minion. This could work in the shows favor as they wouldn't need to worry about staying true to the elements of the Sonic series. 

What do you guys think?

[Mega]

Eh, personally, I think Sonic was an important part of SatAM, so removing him and SatAM Robotnik from the equation really wouldn't do it for me. Part of what appeals to me about SatAM is the chemistry between Sonic and his friends and foes.

[DabigRG]

Idk about their own series, but I do know that I was hoping they'd be[come] more occassional recurring characters like the comic seemed to be suggesting they were in the backstory.

 

Also, Naugus as the main villain over Snively? 

[DCFCSonic20]

Well at the end of Season 2, Robotnik dies and Snively reveals Metal Sonic to no further continuation. I would imagine a game would take place after the series finished.

[Adamis]

17 minutes ago, DCFCSonic20 said:

Well at the end of Season 2, Robotnik dies and Snively reveals Metal Sonic to no further continuation. I would imagine a game would take place after the series finished.

Ixis Naugus, not Metal Sonic.

[LongcrierCat]

I know the fandom loves to joke and talk (it used to be a lot more hard ribbing then from around the late 2000s-early 2010s) about how you could take Sonic, Tails, and Dr. Robotnik out of SatAM and it wouldn't change, but uh. Actually it would change a lot more than you'd think. 

Like Mega says, there's a ton of character chemistry that would just go missing immediately. Sure you could put expies in their place but here's the thing. You'd still get the strongest suspicion that the characters there were meant to be Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik.  

And it's not because of Sonic and Sally's relationship (Sally and Nicole was a much better direction that I'm glad the comics got in on as a huge fan of transhumanist narrative for you know... tons of reasons~ <3) but rather the dynamic with its Robotnik who was a much more militant take on the Eggman but with his same level of egocentric power controlling behaviour but with the manchildishness stripped away (which that's a huge shame because that makes the character feel so much unlike the one Egghead everyone is accustomed to even if it's not a wrong interpretation per say regardless of what a huge Eggman fan will tell me). The show wouldn't be anywhere near the same without Robotnik, Tails, and Sonic. For all of the magic that they'd put into the show, the show was most heavy on cyberpunk technomage fantasy. And Sonic even at the heat of it was still the central character for all it was worth. 

So yes, Sally was a huge focus in the show and you'd be right to think that she was more of a main character to the story than Sonic. She does just as much of the heavy lifting emotionally and plot wise and it is ultimately her and the Fighters and her people's struggle against Robotnik. So you'd think that Sonic was a background character and that Tails shouldn't be such a child, though if anyone knows the show well it's more that Tails was growing more mature and confident and growing into his role over time like a coming of age story later into Season 2 and would have been much more important in Season 3, but it's ultimately Sally and Knothole that gives Sonic that much more reason to fight Robotnik. 

Sonic is still the main character due to the people of Mobotropolis being enslaved as Machine Mobians (I know the term is Robian but I think the other sounds neater) and the threat of his friends' safety was the reason for him to be that much more motivated. In all Sonic material Sonic is a free spirit who loves freedom, hates those who want to impede on that freedom, and protects his friends at all costs? If anything for as involved as Sally is as she should be as a player of the main cast her story works in tandem with Sonic's. See, that's something that bothers me when people don't understand why "Sonic isn't the central focus and character of the show". He is absolutely the focus of the show and has his own reasons besides his friends to fight though the friends are definitely a huge reason. What the Freedom Fighters and Knothole Village are is a translation of the animal friends from the original Sonic games but being allowed to have a voice and be as important a part in the Sonic story even with the show taking its own spin on the world to be more in line with other shows of the time. Though if SatAM was made today in the wake of more stylized and unique shows like Steven Universe, you can bet that they'd utilize the game locations a ton more and make Robotnik more of the manchild bombastic over the theatric militant bombastic. 

And it's not like this huge focus of story and background in a Sonic story was out of line either or else we'd complain about Knuckles and Angel Island making Sonic feel like an insignificant part of the franchise's own mythos in 1994 as that game even solidified that Knuckles has a much more bigger and central role to the Chaos Emeralds than Sonic does if anything. If SatAM had just looked like the games I doubt anyone would have thought twice about Sonic not being the biggest character who does 50 percent of the heavy lifting next to Eggman. 

On the note of Tails, think of it like Steven Universe. Tails looks up to Sonic and the Freedom Fighters and he'd like to be just like his brother and them. Tails has adventures with them more and more to where he's more confident and grows into his role in the team in Season 3. It was only 26 episodes of Sonic SatAM. It would have been less time than when Steven got into a more prominent role in his show's direction.

So it would have changed a lot. 

[Diogenes]

I don't have any interest in the Freedom Fighters, but if this meant they can develop off in their own direction and I never have to hear people asking for them to show up in the games, then sure, go for it.

22 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

And it's not like this huge focus of story and background in a Sonic story was out of line either or else we'd complain about Knuckles and Angel Island making Sonic feel like an insignificant part of the franchise's own mythos in 1994 as that game even solidified that Knuckles has a much more bigger and central role to the Chaos Emeralds than Sonic does if anything. If SatAM had just looked like the games I doubt anyone would have thought twice about Sonic not being the biggest character who does 50 percent of the heavy lifting next to Eggman. 

I don't really agree with that. Knuckles may have had more lore than Sonic, but it doesn't actually amount to much, and it's dwarfed by the story of Sonic dealing with him and Eggman. Plus Sonic gets his own mythic importance by way of the Hidden Palace mural. And 3&K is only one game (well, sort of, you know what I mean) in a running series; even if it had been a game all about Knuckles, it wouldn't have been enough to twist the entire series away from Sonic.

 

[LongcrierCat]

It was still enough to say that Sonic isn't the most important character in his series, though. That's a huge thing I see this fandom arguing is the importance of characters and use that to say that some characters' importance needs to be downplayed more since "Sonic is the one that needs to be most important." That's what I've seen the most when it comes to that point of logic. However, you are right and I do agree that it didn't amount to much. 

I mean, I'd take the Freedom Fighters in their own series, too, but it also feels like a huge part of it would be missing since they were largely a creation of Sonic itself. Their antagonist was Sonic's. They'd have to probably give us an Iron Queen except the rights on her character even got caught up in the Penders Case (really though, fuck that man, I can see why the Star Trek IP holders kicked him out). I mean who would replace Robotnik? A brand new techno mage authoritarian fascist? They'd have to put a ton of work into that to get away from how they were such a huge part of Sonic. And aren't the character rights for the actual FFs and Mobotropolis a lot less tangled up than the comics character rights pre-reboot? I'm just disappointed that Sega still wants nothing to do with that part of Sonic and that they seem to only be able to burn bridges to the fanbase around those parts and to the fanbase of this series overall if Sonic Forces was any indication. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

It was still enough to say that Sonic isn't the most important character in his series, though.

Is it? Because I don't see any prophecies about Knuckles going Super and fighting Eggman in space to recover the Master Emerald and save Angel Island. Knuckles being the Master Emerald's guardian makes him more important than the average joe off the street, but Sonic is the one who actually gets shit done, whether cosmically ordained or not.

[LongcrierCat]

Well, it had the potential to say Sonic wasn't the most important character in his series. It's weird because of how Knuckles is also the most inconsistently written character aside from Tails and Amy. You had several branches of both the series and the fanbase with their own vision of who Knuckles was and even the games made it clear in the Adventures that he's a character who has a Chaos Emerald Force that senses the emeralds but also hinted that he's either both smarter than you'd think or kind of dumb for someone who's been raised in their culture to do the thing. Sure, Sonic is maybe the chosen one, or maybe Knuckles is more powerful and has Chaos Powers besides Emerald Force and he maintains the balance of the universe. It's a huge case of "no one knows and Sega doesn't seem to care". 

You have no idea how many times I've tried to explain this series to a casual fan who would want to get more into this series and they get confused immediately. If anything I don't blame the fans for having their own Knuckles or Sonic or Tails or Amy due to how inconsistent the games are at even portraying them. 

That's why I loved the comics and cartoon is because it was very accessible and easy to learn and jump into with a rich story and nice lore. In the case of the comic it was great at using material that Sega doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with even though it was in their own Game Gear games or arcade history and would have probably made more references to the Sonic Mangas had it had more time too since it made use of everything it could get its hands on to play with. It also helped that it had just great characters or bases for characters in the case of Antoine (poor Antoine, so shafted in a personality). 

[DCFCSonic20]

1 hour ago, Adamis said:

Ixis Naugus, not Metal Sonic.

Always thought that was Metal Sonic for some reason lol. Would make sense though, he wanted to deem revenge on Sonic after he rescued Sally's father from his world.

[LongcrierCat]

It's the eyes, DCFC. It's the red shining like headlights and the overall shape. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

It was still enough to say that Sonic isn't the most important character in his series, though. That's a huge thing I see this fandom arguing is the importance of characters and use that to say that some characters' importance needs to be downplayed more since "Sonic is the one that needs to be most important." That's what I've seen the most when it comes to that point of logic. However, you are right and I do agree that it didn't amount to much. 

Yeah, it's like the people who complain about characters like Rotor.

Granted, Sonic is indeed the main character and thus should have some major degree of power/influence in his series, but the other characters have niches, abilities, and even personalities that should be allowed to shine a bit on occasion.

57 minutes ago, DCFCSonic20 said:

Always thought that was Metal Sonic for some reason lol. Would make sense though, he wanted to deem revenge on Sonic after he rescued Sally's father from his world.

Actually, he still wanted revenge on Robotnik for sealing them in the Void in the first place. Why exactly he would be against Sonic(besides Snively telling him to be) is up in the air.

53 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

It's the eyes, DCFC. It's the red shining like headlights and the overall shape. 

Yeah, I'm not sure why they were designed like that. Maybe they had multiple candidates of who Snively's partner should be before finally deciding it would be Naugus just before the episode was finished, hence the faint raspy laugh.

[Mr Silvia]

I've thought about that, the SATAM finale, how Ben Hurst said that it was going to be Naugus. But why would he reveal one of the main twists of the story, I believe he was trying to get a SATAM movie done until his death. What if those red eyes were supposed to be Jules, or an earlier version of that character? Jules story as presented in Old Archie would fit in nicely with SATAM's backstory IMO. It would also explain why it looks like Metal.

 

As for the original topic... yeah, the basic concept of SATAM could work without Sonic or Robotnik/Eggman specifically. Anthropomorphic animals fighting a lunatic using a machine to turn them into his(or her!) robotic slaves? Sure. But the more you go into the details, the more you have to change things; most importantly Sonic doesn't exist and the Doctor can't be Robotnik/Eggman specifically. You would either need to create a stand in for him or replace him entirely. Still, it could work nicely IMO. SATAM was hardly perfect, and going over everything might be a good way to insure nothing is out of place with what you are creating... creating a consistent tone for the universe from the start would work wonders. Make sure you know what... intensity the story is supposed to be. I would avoid going to either extreme of edgy-ness... but go for it, if that's really the story you want to tell. I really think It inherently leans towards a darker/edgy tone though.

 It might be a decent  idea to use some forgotten characters to help fill in the roster as well. Ian Flynn era Geofferry? A Robian version of Shortfuse? Quality OC'S, even. I honestly think if you made a compelling story about Furry Partisans fighting a dictator trying to Enslave/Murder them, and thought out the Metaverse and general plot before you started, it could work on it's own, with or without Sonic. Hell, I have more faith in literally anyone posting in this topic to create a good story then Sonic Team at this point.

 

Then again, what do I know? I'M CRAZY!!! 

[Cuz]

16 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, he still wanted revenge on Robotnik for sealing them in the Void in the first place. Why exactly he would be against Sonic(besides Snively telling him to be) is up in the air.

That's a good point, I know that was Ben Hurt intent, but Nagus left the void episode on a rather benevolent note.

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What if those red eyes were supposed to be Jules, or an earlier version of that character?

This is actually a pet-peeve of mine since it confuses the history of things. Archie took SatAM's premise to interesting places but, when surmising what something's ancestor would of done, I think it's best not to look at what it's descendant did.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I mean, it could theoretically work and it would be better than these characters not appearing again, while still avoiding the problem of them taking too much time from Sega characters, but I feel like Sonic is way too integral to the Freedom Fighters and the series in general and it would be missing a LOT without him. You could make some sort of stand-in for Sonic, but...ehhhhh, I wouldn't like that, lol. So personally I wouldn't be in favor of it.

I'd love to see another show or media featuring the roboticization concept though...

[E-122-Psi]

A key problem is that in terms of dynamics, Satam and for the large part Archie, didn't really expand beyond Sonic too much. It's not just he's the main character, but the fact he was the abrasive outspoken wild-thinking guy of the group, and about the only one who created some form of conflict between them (besides them getting mildly grouchy with Antoine at times). Sally's protective but overbearing and meticulous approach didn't butt heads with anyone else (part because it never really went pear shaped as often but still), Rotor, Antoine, Bunnie and everyone were all the 'good kids' of the group that followed Sally and were polite to her, with only Sonic really causing the 'we're doing things MY way' arguments with her.

 

Everyone else didn't really have a 'shtick' to stick out. Antoine was the straw loser bumbler, but otherwise needed Sonic to rival with and even when he toned down to be Bunnie's spouse, they were extremely placid. Rotor and Bunnie were fairly inactive and mostly laid back supporting shoulders and secondary characters. Sally without someone butting into her way of doing things or prodding her ego wasn't flawed enough to stick out on her own. Dulcy was Antoine if less loser-ish and problem causing. NICOLE even after a evolving out of being a chunk of plastic was still rather watered down in personality and not even in a distinctive 'AI new to emotions' sort of way. They were all kinda everymanish in quality which I could argue that would make them a rather boring hero dynamic without one of the more bombastic games cast to headline it. The Sally mini series to me furthered that. Sally was pretty boring without Sonic, and other original characters like Hamlin and Geoffery causing riffs weren't as fun and introspective to the main cast.

[RedFox99]

10 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Everyone else didn't really have a 'shtick' to stick out. Antoine was the straw loser bumbler, but otherwise needed Sonic to rival with and even when he toned down to be Bunnie's spouse, they were extremely placid. Rotor and Bunnie were fairly inactive and mostly laid back supporting shoulders and secondary characters. Sally without someone butting into her way of doing things or prodding her ego wasn't flawed enough to stick out on her own. Dulcy was Antoine if less loser-ish and problem causing. NICOLE even after a evolving out of being a chunk of plastic was still rather watered down in personality and not even in an distinctive 'AI new to emotions' sort of way. They were all kinda everymanish in quality which I could argue that would make them a rather boring hero dynamic without one of the more bombastic games cast to headline it. The Sally mini series to me furthered that. Sally was pretty boring without Sonic, and other original characters like Hamlin and Geoffery causing riffs weren't as fun and introspective to the main cast.

Could there be a way to solve this issue?

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

A key problem is that in terms of dynamics, Satam and for the large part Archie, didn't really expand beyond Sonic too much. It's not just he's the main character, but the fact he was the abrasive outspoken wild-thinking guy of the group, and about the only one who created some form of conflict between them (besides them getting mildly grouchy with Antoine at times). Sally's protective but overbearing and meticulous approach didn't butt heads with anyone else (part because it never really went pear shaped as often but still), Rotor, Antoine, Bunnie and everyone were all the 'good kids' of the group that followed Sally and were polite to her, with only Sonic really causing the 'we're doing things MY way' arguments with her.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. In fact this problem is one of the main reasons I'm not as keen on the Freedom Fighters as I used to be, and you put it well. I really like Antoine, Bunnie, and Rotor, but like you said, they're basically just foot soldiers most of the time. To me, they don't have enough in terms of individual goals, causes of interpersonal conflict, or even notable flaws and foibles (well, Antoine certainly did back in the day, not so much in modern Archie, but back then it was usually too one-dimensional to be very interesting anyway), which causes them to come across as bland way too often. I don't like to say that because I definitely have a major fondness for them, but for me personally, there's only so much intrigue you can generate from a bunch of characters whose main purpose is just being friends and part of a team that fights the bad guys, without enough efforts to make them individually remarkable. It actually makes me wonder if those characters would have a greater chance at meeting their potential if we scrapped "Freedom Fighters" as an entity and just had them be their own independent characters (who obviously teamed up a lot and are friends, but don't always band together and aren't part of an organized group - just like characters from the games). And I haven't mentioned Sally throughout this whole thing because she's probably my least favorite Freedom Fighter, even though I don't dislike her; I just tire of her because of her level of prominence being somewhat excessive to me, and her becoming too generically great in every way over the years.

[E-122-Psi]

28 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Could there be a way to solve this issue?

Everyone I suppose did have glimpses of personality, just as mentioned, they didn't really do much with it in favour of Sonic being the pivot or the 'reckless character that convolutes things'.

Sally as mentioned was originally a meticulous opposite to Sonic but similarly arrogant and bull headed. I feel like they could have played more with her over cautious streak and inferiority superiority complex, but it was rarely spotlighted or made to backfire onto her in favour of making her the 'careful one' but never too careful for her own good. I'd loved if they had played on this more, make her a bit more detail obsessed and overbearing and maybe a bit more comically self righteous (so long as it nips her back), but never lose on the fact she only wants to protect everyone and maybe even fears or feels remorseful when she gets too harsh. Twilight Sparkle comes into mind as a more fleshed out attempt at Sally's base character. Basically the neurotic of the group.

Bunnie had her scars from being robotocized, but even without that there felt like there could have been more of a base personality. Early on she was rather hot headed and as ready to bust bad guys as Sonic. Maybe her scars fuelled this and she wanted some payback. Also give her that comically dainty side back. I feel like her pairing with Antoine could have been WAY funnier, between his original pomposity and Bunnie being a potential Tsundere over it.

Rotor early on was the insecure dork. I feel like maybe he should have taken more of Antoine's clumsy awkward traits and have his smarts compensate for it.

Antoine could have had an arc similar to the comics, but keep his narcissism and delusions of grandeur to some degree. Antoine can be more competent, but it's impossible to be to the same degree he THINKS he is.

NICOLE as mentioned is the 'AI new to emotions'. There's loads of character potential ripe with that. I feel like Archie adjusted her too perfectly in a flash besides some very sparse and subtle moments of awkwardness or robotic behaviour.

They maybe could have used more individual goals and roles as well. This was something I disliked about the Freedom Fighter interpretations, nearly every character had little agenda besides 'stopping Robotnik', no other personality whims to seek to make them individual and more proactive.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don’t know. They could develop independently, but they’re mostly known as Sonic Characters of a different canon. They were mostly know through their connection to the Blue Blur himself.

It could work if they put effort into it and it becomes a success, so it’s not something to rule out. But their main dynamic is essentially the same as everyone else, just not as mainstream anymore. It would be no different to someone like Shadow or Knuckles having their own games.

I would prefer them stay Sonic characters tho.

[Splash the Otter]

I think Antoine could work as a replacement for Sonic. He's the closest to Sonic in terms of personality, and his cowardice could be used as a starting point for character development. I picture him being less of a walking French stereotype in this scenario and more of an underdogcoyote who wants to prove himself.

[E-122-Psi]

32 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

I think Antoine could work as a replacement for Sonic. He's the closest to Sonic in terms of personality, and his cowardice could be used as a starting point for character development. I picture him being less of a walking French stereotype in this scenario and more of an underdogcoyote who wants to prove himself.

I think the problem with Satam was that after a while Antoine (and to a lesser extent Sonic) got flanderized into the 'egotists who got their comeuppance' of the group.

While I do like these hubris based failures, I feel like these screw up moments should have shared around the cast to flesh out their defects and make them fallible characters who can drive a story (ESPECIALLY Sally who really needed her vices deconstructed to make her sympathetic). Not to mention they became less excusable when done repeatedly with the same characters over and over again, especially in such high stakes situations, and stifled any chances of character development.

The first instances of this formula (Hooked on Sonics and Sonic Conversation) worked well enough because it also played on their ego, they genuinely just wanted to make a difference and when everything went horribly wrong because of them they were genuinely deflated and sorry (sure it would be characteristic for them to do it again, but it had sympathetic insight here). After that they just became obnoxiously careless and never even tried to learn from their mistakes no matter how many times it got them and the others in danger, and while they were suitingly humiliated in the end, they still often just acted egomaniacal and huffy.

I think that's why many like MLP since it often has these types of stories but between the whole cast and, for a long while early on at least, it seemed to be playing into dynamic development. Take Sally and Sonic's counterparts, Twilight Sparkle learned to be less overbearing and neurotic while Rainbow Dash got less reckless and egomaniacal (though neither losing their key flaws ENTIRELY and sometimes even having cases we see they are a necessary evil). With Satam/Archie the characters either NEVER learned or toned down, or said traits just withered and faded without any real development playing into them.

[Cuz]

 

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Bunnie had her scars from being robotocized, but even without that there felt like there could have been more of a base personality. Early on she was rather hot headed and as ready to bust bad guys as Sonic. Maybe her scars fuelled this and she wanted some payback. Also give her that comically dainty side back. I feel like her pairing with Antoine could have been WAY funnier, between his original pomposity and Bunnie being a potential Tsundere over it.

Bunnie's easily the character I'd most like to see get her own game/series or something to survive Post-Archie. Some of that hotheadedness probably stems from the power that comes with her bionic half. Early-Archie had some good fun with mega man style hand cannons, energy shields, extend-o legs, jets etc. Even without most of those super strength and flight are quite the power set. Not to undercut the tragedy of robotociziation. There's an interesting duality in the power it brings and having/ wanting to give that up. She's become my favorite of the bunch.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

NICOLE as mentioned is the 'AI new to emotions'. There's loads of character potential ripe with that. I feel like Archie adjusted her too perfectly in a flash besides some very sparse and subtle moments of awkwardness or robotic behaviour.

I kind of liked that they didn't dwell too long on adjusting to reality, the 'AI new to emotions' angle feels too played out to me.

[E-122-Psi]

3 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I kind of liked that they didn't dwell too long on adjusting to reality, the 'AI new to emotions' angle feels too played out to me.

My problem with that is that, like with the other Freedom Fighters, they didn't put much else of personality instead of that. Without being robotically minded, she was just kind of a normal boring character that happened to be a computer.