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Should Infinite return to the Sonic series?

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7 minutes ago, A crocodile said:

No, there's nothing to bring back. He's literally a caricature of every generic "grimdark" villain ever. If you want to modify him to be "written better", you'd have to make changes that would deviate from what everyone already thinks of him so much you may as well make a new villain that at least would start off life without a tarnished reputation. 

You would not have to modify anything that much. All your need to do is expand the scope.of why he joined eggman. What is his end goal. Does he want to simply be the strongest creature alive or Does he simply want the world to burn. What are the extent of his powers. His cockiness lead to his defeat.mulitple times. Honestly it's a undergrad writing assignment.  It wouldn't take much to bring his story up to par

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I mean they brought back Zavok sorta from the Deadly Shits.....so anything is possible. I ain't really for or against Infinite returning. I'm just kinda...whatever. If anything he'd score points with me if he just made it so we never see the Deadly I Hate Them in any form again. I mean I felt they at least tried with Infinite. 

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2 hours ago, FFWF said:

Oh, really, where was that?  Seems like an odd name for him to have as a simple jackal mercenary, prior to becoming an enigmatic science experiment who explicitly threw away his past identity.

Ian Flynn explicitly asked about it when doing the prequel comic, and that is what he was told.

Speaking of, I doubt the Jackal squad would come with him if he returned. Not only is he not shown caring for them that much, they matter so little that ABT was left to fill in their designs.

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53 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Ian Flynn explicitly asked about it when doing the prequel comic, and that is what he was told.

Speaking of, I doubt the Jackal squad would come with him if he returned. Not only is he not shown caring for them that much, they matter so little that ABT was left to fill in their designs.

Thank you; that's more or less what I expected.  The "we don't to want to have to think about this" school of canon...  Well, at least I can say that they would surely retcon it in a heartbeat.

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Hell to the N.O. When the OC/Avatar character you create in Forces has more substance than the villain, you need to re-evaluate things. They had the potential to make him an interesting character with the powers granted from the Phantom Ruby, but they absolutely wasted it with his weak ass motivation (i.e. Shadow hit me, wahh.) 

If he were to appear in another title and IF they were to make better use of his powers or flesh out his motivations, then maybe. But as far as I'm concerned, he got erased from all existance towards the end of Forces.

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3 hours ago, DaddlerTheDalek said:

Maybe sometime in the future but with better writing.

So never then? I agree!

For real though id rather not, the whole phantom ruby shit was so headache inducing and poorly done after Mania id rather we just move on new concepts Sonic Team can mangle instead of drawing this one out.

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If the Heavies come back, i’ll Be asking where he is, like Chaos without Tikal in Battle. 

 

I don’t understand why you’d pick a set of generic archetypes over a single generic archetype that actually is cool. 

 

I like him the the way he is. He’s sick and demented, making zero doubts about his animosity. He has no redeeming qualities, with a backstory that’s realistic and petty, like many great evils in real life. Not every villain is remotely sympathetic. Not everyone is like Merlina or Fiona. Some of them are pure evil.

 

The HBHs seem to be enyojed, despite their weak backstory (why did the Ruby assign Wacky personas to them? Who were they before being made into EggRobos? Are they truly sentient?), why not Infinite? And he’s still more fleshed out than the zeti. We at least have some idea of who he was. 

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If you prefer the dark edgy era of Modern Sonic games, then for you infinite might have potential in a return. I'm one who doesn't so for me he's yet another terribly written character that should not return.

In general, It'd be better for the franchise to pick a direction and stick to it, regardless of what that is. If its Modern Edgy Sonic, go full modern edge. In that case, bring Infinite back with a better writer (although that's doesn't even top Modern Sonic's list of problems). But be consistent and stick to it unless it definitely does not work, with the goal of course being for Sonic to attract broad audiences like Mario does.

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54 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

If the Heavies come back, i’ll Be asking where he is, like Chaos without Tikal in Battle. 

 

I don’t understand why you’d pick a set of generic archetypes over a single generic archetype that actually is cool. 

 

I like him the the way he is. He’s sick and demented, making zero doubts about his animosity. He has no redeeming qualities, with a backstory that’s realistic and petty, like many great evils in real life. Not every villain is remotely sympathetic. Not everyone is like Merlina or Fiona. Some of them are pure evil.

 

The HBHs seem to be enyojed, despite their weak backstory (why did the Ruby assign Wacky personas to them? Who were they before being made into EggRobos? Are they truly sentient?), why not Infinite? And he’s still more fleshed out than the zeti. We at least have some idea of who he was. 

Because the Hard Boiled Heavies weren't hyped up to the ends of the earth in PR, nor do they represent parts of the series that most people wish it would move away from.

Fact of the matter is, Infinite is exactly why people mock this series. He represents every negative stereotype people associate with this franchise.

>Edgy design. Check

>Poorly written background. Check.

>Two dimensional personality. Check.

 

And I understand a lot of modern Sonic fans love that type of stuff, but it's important to understand why those very things are often mocked to begin with, because Sonic Team seem incapable of making it's audience take any of that stuff seriously due to their incompetence.

 

No the Hard Boiled Heavies aren't really much better, but they're far less obnoxious than Infinite ever will be.

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I've talked about what I like about Infinite before. Short version: I think he'd be a fun lackey for Eggman to have and I would enjoy watching cutscenes of him trading banter with our various heroes and villains.

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16 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

>Edgy design. Check

>Poorly written background. Check.

>Two dimensional personality. Check.

 

 

Eh, The first thing doesn't really matter? If people like the design, they like no matter if some loud folks don't like it. Shadow is proof of this

The last thing also doesn't matter because to be quite fair... that describes a fair number of sonic characters, the 2nd one does tbh. 

I don't think those all make for bad characters , I do think infinite is a bad character. And I agree with him being hyped up effectively ruined him. But I don't think those are check marks, you can argue shadow falls into that category. But shadow, despite not being in games remains popular. I think you need to present the character, flaws in all in  good video game and people will jive with them more. I mean that isn't infnite's only problem, I mean speaking of shadow infinite literally calls out shadow calling himself the " ultimate merc" and lets be real here he was never going to live up to shadow because i'll admit this as a shadow fan. Shadow has the advantage of being apart of a " good ol' days" memory set for a great deal of people, and infnite was fresh, so they were setting him up for failure. 

But I don't really think everything you listed is nessiciarly a character break, even in combination

 

But to answer op's question, yeah but like with his squad. That's much more interesting than him working for eggman

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh, The first thing doesn't really matter? If people like the design, they like no matter if some loud folks don't like it. Shadow is proof of this

The last thing also doesn't matter because to be quite fair... that describes a fair number of sonic characters, the 2nd one does tbh. 

I don't think those all make for bad characters , I do think infinite is a bad character. And I agree with him being hyped up effectively ruined him. But I don't think those are check marks, you can argue shadow falls into that category. But shadow, despite not being in games remains popular. I think you need to present the character, flaws in all in  good video game and people will jive with them more. I mean that isn't infnite's only problem, I mean speaking of shadow infinite literally calls out shadow calling himself the " ultimate merc" and lets be real here he was never going to live up to shadow because i'll admit this as a shadow fan. Shadow has the advantage of being apart of a " good ol' days" memory set for a great deal of people, and infnite was fresh, so they were setting him up for failure. 

But I don't really think everything you listed is nessiciarly a character break, even in combination

...You do realize Shadow was (and still is to a lesser extent) an extremely controversial character because of those things right? 

But yea, those things in a vacuum aren't bad, but I'm not talking about them in a vacuum. I'm talking about how badly they tend to be handled because Sonic Team can't write compelling and backstories characters for shit. Even as a fan of Shadow myself, it's not really hard to understand why people didn't like him for so many years as much as people did like him.

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11 hours ago, JezMM said:

I think story-wise there'd still be good potential for him as a villian who wants revenge on Sonic for humiliating him, sans his powers, but without his powers he'd lose the thing about him that made for some nice boss fights - the whole "if you get hit you get teleported to the danger zone and have to survive for a few moments" shtick.

I feel like the issue with this is like , he already failed that revenge thing. He already looks like a giant coward, because shadow is the reason he is why he is. But all he did to shadow was trick him for 45 seconds... and then shadow broke out of the trick. Him wanting revenge on sonic , will always feel weird because even though I made this comment in jest in another thread. Story wise, it seems like he's like...afraid of shadow and just switched targets. 

I guess being kind of a coward could be his thing?

6 hours ago, FFWF said:

 

Edit: Regarding the above, I would say that Infinite is superior to the Deadly Six in at least the sense that he felt like a Sonic character, which the Deadly Six absolutely did not.

 

This 100% 

The D6 are dreamwork firstdrafts

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

...You do realize Shadow was (and still is to a lesser extent) an extremely controversial character because of those things right? 

Eh, In the same way any edgy character is. 

Venom is " controversial " people hate him because he's edgy. But people love venom, some venom's more than others, so he's kept around.

So not really controversial no 

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But yea, those things in a vacuum aren't bad, but I'm not talking about them in a vacuum. I'm talking about how badly they tend to be handled because Sonic Team can't write compelling and backstories characters for shit. Even as a fan of Shadow myself, it's not really hard to understand why people didn't like him for so many years as much as people did like him.

Sure, but some people not liking an edgy character doesn't mean its controversial, there are just people like that out here. 

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14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Eh, In the same way any edgy character is. 

Venom is " controversial " people hate him because he's edgy. But people love venom, some venom's more than others, so he's kept around.

So not really controversial no 

Sure, but some people not liking an edgy character doesn't mean its controversial, there are just people like that out here. 

If a character causes such a divide in opinions, guess what. That''s controversial.

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

If a character causes such a divide in opinions, guess what. That''s controversial.

I don't think that's a divide

There are people who like and hate popular characters. That's what makes them popular you know? I think when you talk about a controversial character, is where the like hate dvide is divide obfuscated. Like no one is making the argument  " Is shadow popular " , they know he's popular, they know why he's popular. Some people don't like , that's fine. 

Silver is a controversial character because his place in the fanbase is generally obfuscated, there isn't a roaring fanbase for silver , he's in a weird spot from a weird game in the series sega will tell you people like him. But then he shows up and blaze doesnt show up in forces and people start shitting on him. 

Controversy is like where you need to like, have a conversation and there are like views people aren't clear on and the standing isn't clear. Shadow's an edgelord from a beloved game in the series, and some people don't like that game and him. Its nothing really controversial about that, some people don't like a character.  And I would make the argument shadow isn't controversial because most people playing these games don't really care about that controversy . They are old enough to go " i remember sa2 i like or did not like that " or " Oh i'm 5 and I think shadow looks cool , or does not " and that's about where that begins an ends. 

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think that's a divide

There are people who like and hate popular characters. That's what makes them popular you know? I think when you talk about a controversial character, is where the like hate dvide is divide obfuscated. Like no one is making the argument  " Is shadow popular " , they know he's popular, they know why he's popular. Some people don't like , that's fine. 

Silver is a controversial character because his place in the fanbase is generally obfuscated, there isn't a roaring fanbase for silver , he's in a weird spot from a weird game in the series sega will tell you people like him. But then he shows up and blaze doesnt show up in forces and people start shitting on him. 

Controversy is like where you need to like, have a conversation and there are like views people aren't clear on and the standing isn't clear. Shadow's an edgelord from a beloved game in the series, and some people don't like that game and him. Its nothing really controversial about that, some people don't like a character.  And I would make the argument shadow isn't controversial because most people playing these games don't really care about that controversy . They are old enough to go " i remember sa2 i like or did not like that " or " Oh i'm 5 and I think shadow looks cool , or does not " and that's about where that begins an ends. 

You're making this sound way more complicated than it actually is.

If a character is both simultaneously liked and hated by a large amount of people, THAT IS A DIVIDE. I don't get what you're trying to say. That Shadow isn't controversial, but then everything you just said outlined that he is. There isn't a consensus on him because there are people who feel he should have left the series after SA2 about as much as people who like having him around.

Silver isn't even as contentious because he hasn't gotten anywhere near as much attention as Shadow, so his opinions are far less notable. 

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20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're making this sound way more complicated than it actually is.

 

I think you are making a bigger deal out of it than what it is. Most people I feel don't really care. And some loud people on the internet don't like a character. It happens, I don't feel like that's controversial. 

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Maybe. Retool Infinite and you could possibly end up with a new take that’s far more worthwhile, because majority of the stuff about him was so poorly done that he needs a do over.

As he currently stands, his character is so weakly portrayed that he’s as obnoxious as the D6, just on the opposite extreme of the spectrum. Goes to show how off the series writing os post-Colors.

His most prominent redeeming feature is that out of all the powerful, godlike characters in the setting, he is the only one to never betray Eggman after joining him of his own free will...and this is the same character that almost managed to kill Eggman in what little backstory he was given.

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I think you are making a bigger deal out of it than what it is. Most people I feel don't really care. And some loud people on the internet don't like a character. It happens, I don't feel like that's controversial. 

No, I'm literally telling you what the definition of something is and you're trying to say its not with no evidence to back it up. :\

If  X has a an equally amount of support from Side A and opposition from Side B, guess what. That's controversial. I don't care if you don't agree with it or not, but that's literally what the definition of controversial is; a subject matter that spawns disagreements from both sides, and in case I just imagined the last 15 years or so, I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of a lot of elements in this series.

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Uh, I guess? I mean, I'm not one to just turn anything away from getting another shot, but I'm not entirely sure here..

 

See, here's the messy thing about Infinite: he's the first villain we've had since Shadow and by extension Mephiles to actually look like a Sonic character, yet he still falls into an issue that pretty much every one besides the Deadly Six fell into--he's not very manageable.

No, seriously, he has a lot of the same trappings: he's overpowered af, his powers relies on a very gamebreaking element beyond what the cast can normally handle, he's practically irredeemable in his vileness, and his presence understandably required a darker tone most of the time.

 

Also, I don't know if you caught this, but the Phantom Ruby itself was fuckin destroyed with the Mega Death Egg Robot. Which means that even if Infinite survived having it ripped out(if he wasn't just made a Mobini in its Badnik), his whole shtick is likely completely gone. Which isn't to say they couldn't reveal he survived and that they couldn't just say some of the power remains Mogul-style, but I kinda doubt it at the moment.

13 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

While we're on subject of controversial villains, who do you think is better: Deadly Six or Infinite?

The Deadly Six, though I guess it could depend on the context.

13 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Depends. If he was intended to be dead at the end of Forces, he should stay dead. If he was intended to be alive, it'd be interesting to see him go back to mercenary work post-Ruby and maybe fill the role some fans want Fang back for.

It's been confirmed that Infinite is his real name, not a moniker, so that'd be what they do.

Sounds neat.

Really now? Interesting.

 

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