Sonic Mania Plus: Official Reveal (Coming July 17th) - NO SPOILERS

[JosepHenry]

Oh yeah, the ending needs some work, it really feel rushed without the transition to TM.

Remeber how Sonic 3K worked? Sky Santuary started falling down and they had to run to the top and jump into the Death Egg... 

Also I would prefer if the ending was sprite based over the lacking animation.

[Diogenes]

59 minutes ago, Jango said:

Some zones are easy to think about a transition, but others like Hydrocity to Mirage Saloon... yeah, how the fuck did Sonic and Tails grabbed the Tornado AND pick up Knuckles like that from the "hole" they were at the end of HCZ?

Same way they got out of Hydrocity the first time, why not. Everyone rides a water stream up, they pop out near the Tornado, Eggman or one of the Heavies flies by, and they jump on the plane and give chase.

[FlameStream]

They also don't have to make that much sense. Just something is enough to please most people.

[Marco9966]

14 hours ago, Jack the Maniac said:

So do you think Mania Plus will add the missing transitions and/or more cutscenes for Knuckles' story and possibly Mighty & Ray? I sure hope so.

So Adventure still happens after the Classic games and Mania?

[BaronGrackle]

Not everyone would like it, but they could "fix" every missing zone transition by adding a Phantom Ruby flash, such as the one between Green Hill and Chemical Plant.

Sonic and Tails beat Hydrocity Zone, then *RUBY!FLASH* they're flying with Knuckles at Mirage Saloon Zone.

Lazy, sure. But believable.

[Razule]

37 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

So Adventure still happens after the Classic games and Mania?

If it does happen in Classic Sonic's universe, it sure won't happen on-screen

10 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Not everyone would like it, but they could "fix" every missing zone transition by adding a Phantom Ruby flash, such as the one between Green Hill and Chemical Plant.

Sonic and Tails beat Hydrocity Zone, then *RUBY!FLASH* they're flying with Knuckles at Mirage Saloon Zone.

Lazy, sure. But believable.

Maybe just show Knuckles running up to Sonic and Tails at the end of Hydrocity and then flash to them on the Tornado. Doesn't even need a Ruby transition, just imply they flew back up to top and got back to it in Angel Island Zone.

[Red Hot Jack]

6 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

So Adventure still happens after the Classic games and Mania?

Mania's events happen in the classic dimension and its timeline, and then they cross during Generations and Forces. Adventure happens after the classic events modernified in the modern timeline. 

Classic timeline: Sonic 1 -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic CD -> Sonic 3 & Knuckles -> Sonic Generations (crossover) -> Sonic Mania -> Sonic Forces (crossover) -> Sonic Mania Adventures.

Modern timeline: Classic events with Modern designs -> Sonic Adventure -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Sonic Heroes -> a bunch of minor games that may or may not be canon -> Sonic 2006 (events erased themselves) -> Sonic Unleashed -> Sonic Colors -> Sonic Generations (crossover) -> Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Forces prequel comics -> Sonic Forces Episode Shadow -> Sonic Forces (crossover).

[Jango]

Real talk tho'? Sonic 3 style transitions are super cool and charming and I wouldn't trade them... But.. heck I'd be lying if I say I didn't wanted too see animated transitions in the same style of the opening/Adventures <3

Tomba/Tombi on the PS1 had these sometimes, it was too cool. 

[Tenko]

 

3 hours ago, Jango said:

Real talk tho'? Sonic 3 style transitions are super cool and charming and I wouldn't trade them... But.. heck I'd be lying if I say I didn't wanted too see animated transitions in the same style of the opening/Adventures <3

Tomba/Tombi on the PS1 had these sometimes, it was too cool. 

That would make it more true Saturn era project as animated scenes like in say Saturn Bomberman or in things like C&C live action cutscenes, were a big thing of that era to show off the new CD based format. The only thing standing in the way would be the time, and more importantly I think the budget.

While we have got Mania Adventures and an expansion of sorts out of the success of Mania, which don't get me wrong, is fantastic and shows they have faith in the product and how well it did.Sega still seems hesitant to put any real money, to the extent of a AAA game, behind what I guess is considered a smaller project like Mania. Regardless of how much it ended up making them on the limited budget it had. I don't really see them even adding to the animated scenes Mania had with the expansion which is a shame. If there is a Mania 2, I hope they do give them a bigger budget for the animated segments tho, the opening and Adventures are both fantastic!!

Edit : Crossed my mind, we should have Adventures in Mania Plus, either as an unlockable or just there as part of this new complete package. It's good good to just be on YouTube. For that matter put the trailer for Mania with the pencil sketch animation on there too. I was sad that wasn't combined with the intro for Mania when it released. That person who combined the two on YouTube did a great job and it flows nicely, was odd it was missing much like all the Generations ones used only in the advertising!

[JezMM]

To be fair, if they were ever having THAT much trouble with transitions, they could just Phantom Ruby it up.  But waterfunneling out of Hydrocity back onto Angel Island's beach to retrieve the Tornado makes a lot of sense.  Getting to Hydrocity from Stardust Speedway or back to Lava Reef from Oil Ocean might need some Phantom Ruby magic if they aren't willing to draw a bunch of long-distance shots to show the characters travelling between Little Planet, Angel Island and Westside Island though.

 

The adjustment of boss difficulty is definitely good news.  They're the biggest roadblock for a lot of players it seems, and getting a Game Over on an Act 2 boss is extraordinarily punishing in terms of how much gameplay you have to repeat.

[Jango]

The only boss that "got me" in Mania (this is not me bragging) was Oil Ocean Act 1, simply because you can't see the ceiling full of spikes that INSTAKILL YOU. That shit is bad designed, no excuses. Other than that, most bosses are easy to read, some indeed require experimentation and patience, but that's how games work I suppose. I don't want the game to point an arrow at which missile I have to hit in Studiopolis Act 1 boss for example. I can see that the little blue one is malfunctioning (it even bandages on it) and the RED pointy ones are obviously dangerous. These visual cues are enough honestly. The problem with OOZ boss is that you can't virtually see the death trap above you after having to loose a life. There's no reading and testing in this boss. Granted, it will ever only happens once.

Mania bosses remind a lot of Megaman bosses sometimes, you have to be patient and read the boss before attacking it, which is cool if you ask me. And you can always force most bosses anyways :V 

[TheOcelot]

29 minutes ago, JezMM said:

But waterfunneling out of Hydrocity back onto Angel Island's beach to retrieve the Tornado makes a lot of sense. though.

Good point. Yeah, they left the Tornado in Angel Island, so with Hydrocity being so close it would be straightforward to go back, pick up the Tornado and then proceed to Mirage Saloon.

 

I'm happy with there being a mixture of 3K zone transitions and Phantom Ruby warps (although a mixture of the two did seem like a bit of an odd decision). I would have been quite content if the Phantom Ruby just warped Sonic to every single zone (which probably would have been easier for the devs instead of also doing the 3K transitions).

 

Quote

the adjustment of boss difficulty is definitely good news.  They're the biggest roadblock for a lot of players it seems, and getting a Game Over on an Act 2 boss is extraordinarily punishing in terms of how much gameplay you have to repeat.

It's a bit of a strange decision not to include the option in Mania to allow the player to continue from act2 (instead of having to go back to act1) upon getting a game over like you can in the mobile remasters.

I doubt it's high on their list of things to change, but maybe they will.

[superman43]

19 minutes ago, TheOcelot said:

It's a bit of a strange decision not to include the option in Mania to allow the player to continue from act2 (instead of having to go back to act1) upon getting a game over like you can in the mobile remasters.

On the other hand, I think this was intended from the very beginning. Mania is a new game and not a remaster. Therefore, even if the release date was 2017, it made sense to bring the Sonic 3-alike save system back.

[Tenko]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

The problem with OOZ boss is that you can't virtually see the death trap above you after having to loose a life. There's no reading and testing in this boss. Granted, it will ever only happens once.

It was similar to Wacky Workbench in Sonic CD, you couldn't see the ceiling that high up until you picked a platform and went "Ah Shit!". Then learned that you hopped on the low bouncing one to progress to the next platform without dying. 

[Razule]

1 hour ago, superman43 said:

On the other hand, I think this was intended from the very beginning. Mania is a new game and not a remaster. Therefore, even if the release date was 2017, it made sense to bring the Sonic 3-alike save system back.

If it's a new game, wouldn't it make more sense to progress beyond something like that from the original games than to bring it back? 

[JezMM]

Oil Ocean Act 1 I've never had trouble with because it's my default state to hang around in the middle of the arena when I'm fighting a boss I don't yet understand, since it's the position that gives me quickest access to either side of the screen if I figure out I need to dodge those ways.  I also figured that, since I could already hit him from the ground, the lids were clearly going to be a threat rather than an aid, so I just made sure to not be on them when they went up regardless, and jumped towards the ones that came back down before the ones I was standing on in the center could go up.  I THINK anyway.  I probably performed this less elegantly than I describe my first time lol.

For me the problem bosses would be Flying Battery 2 - which doesn't give you a clear read on when it's vulnerable at all and contains instant-deaths - if you're super unlucky, AFTER the boss is defeated - and Oil Ocean 2 - which is just merciless due to the large amount of projectiles, long wait times between attacking opportunities, and the fact that rings don't bounce on the ground.

 

I think for Flying Battery, I'd make it so spikes are non-solid and just damage you if you get caught underneath them.  I'd also add rings to the arena - either a small, respawning amount after each "loop" (like 3), or a fixed amount all over the arena which obviously repeat but you've used them, they don't come back.

For Oil Ocean, I would keep the boss as is in terms of attacks - it is late-game after all, but obviously I'd make it so rings bounce on every surface, including the oil.  I'd also make it so, with skill, you can reduce the time spent waiting for attacks.  Extend the "hit the extra parts enough times and they're destroyed" logic to the leapy snake thing and the shooty snake thing.

My suggestion would be for the leapy one to give it a head and a tail that both have a spike on them, attached to a damagable ball.  The middle portion is still lacking in collision or damage.  The idea is if you're skilled, you can hit the first ball by jumping on it as it passes under you, then bounce from that to hit the other ball.  Or you can play it safe and just go for one or the other - jumping into the safe zone then up again to hit the ball at the "tail" of the snake.  Perhaps 3 hits on each ball to destroy it and remove it from the battle, or 4 hits total on either side?

As for the shooty one - keep it the same, but have it crackle with electricity on and off, or have a spike pop out of the top of it on and off etc, every few seconds.  Since this one gives you ample opportunity to attack it, I'd say it'd need a Sonic-standard 6-8 hits to remove it from the battle.  If you destroy both snake things then the battle loop just becomes Eggman popping up over and over, speeding up the battle.

 

Having said this, I think the game in general would benefit from a Sonic Advance style options menu that, without passing judgement, allows you to reduce boss difficulty simply by chopping their health down by a few pegs.

[Tenko]

I personally see no issue with any of them, in fact I would say most are too easy. They are meant to be bosses, not minor inconveniences. You do run into issue with difficulty tho since Sonic is still a title aimed primarially at young children. Perhaps this Encore Mode will act as a type of hard mode of sorts.

As for speed running or doing no hit runs, I dont want to be that guy, and it's probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but that's up to you to learn the patterns, avoid the obstacles, to hone your skills, just like it was back in the day before patches and revisions and the potential for change in a game once it was released was almost non existent. The developer shouldn't be making bosses easier just because personally you have issues with said boss, or even if a handful of people do, or hell even if a forum topic full of people can't do it yet. It is possible and many have shown that it is, so unless it's broken and very badly fundamentally flawed, and not just challenging, to me thats just asking for an easy way out, that you expect to beat it easy every time, and to me, that's not a boss, a boss is something you have to learn, not faceroll.

Now this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's just my opinion on it, so please don't hire assassins and what not!! /little rant over

[superman43]

7 hours ago, Razule said:

If it's a new game, wouldn't it make more sense to progress beyond something like that from the original games than to bring it back? 

Not really if the games tries to simulate a SEGA Saturn game. Plus I don´t think that repeating the Act 1 is too much of a punishment for anyone (though, I must agree that playing Titanic Monarch from act 1 all over again is cruel).

[Jango]

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

[Red Hot Jack]

I liked it, it shows how strong of a machine Metal is. It's definitely the longest and most persistent boss in the game. Of course it drags a bit too much for my tastes, but it's good.

[JezMM]

5 hours ago, Tenko said:

I personally see no issue with any of them, in fact I would say most are too easy. They are meant to be bosses, not minor inconveniences. You do run into issue with difficulty tho since Sonic is still a title aimed primarially at young children. Perhaps this Encore Mode will act as a type of hard mode of sorts.

As for speed running or doing no hit runs, I dont want to be that guy, and it's probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but that's up to you to learn the patterns, avoid the obstacles, to hone your skills, just like it was back in the day before patches and revisions and the potential for change in a game once it was released was almost non existent. The developer shouldn't be making bosses easier just because personally you have issues with said boss, or even if a handful of people do, or hell even if a forum topic full of people can't do it yet. It is possible and many have shown that it is, so unless it's broken and very badly fundamentally flawed, and not just challenging, to me thats just asking for an easy way out, that you expect to beat it easy every time, and to me, that's not a boss, a boss is something you have to learn, not faceroll.

Now this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's just my opinion on it, so please don't hire assassins and what not!! /little rant over

I just think that by insisting on adhering to retro-style difficulty levels and punishments for failure, they're limiting the audience of the game greatly, particularly to those who only enjoy playing games casually, maybe those who played the original games as teenagers and no longer have the time to dedicate to playing zones over and over again until they learn a boss' attack pattern.  There's no reason to not make a game more accessible to players of a lower skill level.

Heck, I BET the vast majority of Sonic fans now who would criticise easy modes and such probably messed with cheat codes to see later levels they hadn't reached yet the MOMENT they found out those cheat codes existed.

Regardless of the above, I do definitely feel there's some serious balance issues with Sonic Mania's difficulty.  Flying Battery is such a spike in difficulty that I really feel Zone 4 wasn't the right place for it at all (though it'd be tough to move it because honestly the rest of the zones build in difficulty FAIRLY smoothly, so if we JUST moved Flying Battery, that'd leave Studiopolis and Press Garden next to each other).  As mentioned, Oil Ocean's Act 2 boss is way harder than any boss that comes between it and the final bosses.

2 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

I really like it, though I do feel that, despite how much I was ALL OVER that 8-bit Sonic 2 fanservice, the Silver Sonic section is a little flawed.  Tons of players, myself included, only found out you could spin dash Silver Sonic through word of mouth.  The problem is that jumping into him in mid-air KIND OF works SOMETIMES so it feels like that's the correct solution and it's just really hard to pull off.  On the flipside, once you DO know the spin dash trick, the boss becomes a complete non-issue, stupidly easy really.

I like the length though coz it kind of serves as a "mid-game climax", giving a similar feel to the boss gauntlet we get in Launch Base during Sonic 3 Complete.

[superman43]

29 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I like the length though coz it kind of serves as a "mid-game climax", giving a similar feel to the boss gauntlet we get in Launch Base during Sonic 3 Complete.

Yeah, that was the purpose. I said many times that after Iizuka came up with returning zones, the team made up a superb level order. If you look into it, you can see the pattern.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

It's the only boss in the game I don't hate and actually enjoy fighting aside from the final and extra bosses.

So yeah, it's good.

[Jango]

@JezMM Hehe, I can't lie, you got that right pal, I did used the game genie thingy back in the day on Sonic & Knuckles Collection at least. I remember being stuck for the longest time in Sandopolis Act 2. I was also one of those that got stuck in Carnival Night's barrel...  I was like 8 to 9 years old even!

I eventually managed to beat every classic game the right way, a couple of years later. Maybe yeah, some bosses in Mania are a bit too harsh for their own good and Flying Battery is only a drag if you take the high route (yep, they did the reverse way in this zone). The lower route is more straight forward. Still, Act 2 is long as hell, and the boss isn't the kind you can force your way. Not gonna lie, I had a Time Over on FBZ Act 2 on my first playthrough, during the boss ;(

An easy mode isn't the solution I would go with, but maybe make some bosses demand less hits to defeat? And a couple of rings in the arena. The OOZ octopus boss could spill a few rings now and then during the fight.

All in all, they're my favorite Sonic bosses in any 2D game.

[Meta77]

You know people gripe a lot about oil oceans boss. He was the weakest imo. I got stuck in the left corner but I had a flame shield and downed him in a few seconds from flame dashing him in a sea of fire lol. The worst was flying b because you can't double hit it to fast