Mania/Classic series and the lack of characters

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't mean that everyone needs to be playable, I would like some more though, as I said Amy, plus maybe Sally or Sticks or Tangle, after all there is demand for these minor characters, just like there was for Mighty and Ray. They could be interesting to play as. And yes, new villains, why not, this Classic series has a lot of potential if they make it bigger.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Adding Amy is a must, that's obvi. Metal would be pretty sweet to.

With that said, adding new playable character is something that requires though. Yeah, it seems like a super easy way to force re-playability (sure works on me) but notice that Knuckles already needs his own version of stages. So new gameplay need to be though out, cause "Shove Knight" way of remaking stages for every new character would take too much time. But there is also factor making everyone unique, balancing issues, etc.

I'm starting to think that they picked Mighty & Ray over Amy as a guinea pigs, to see if they can make new gameplay right.

But once they get a hang of it I think this:
- Main 4 in every game (plus Metal if I can dream)
- Mighty/Ray/Chaotix/etc classic as unshockables (won't have to worry how to add them to the story)
- Shadow/Blaze/etc modern as DLC. That way classic purists won't cry over having those terrifying recolors in their game,  while modern fans will be able to play modern characters in a good game. At the same time, number of buys at each character will  show exactly how marketable each one is.

[ShadowSJG]

Modern Sonic is still around, right?

[Blue Blood]

10 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Modern Sonic is still around, right?

No, SEGA officially cancelled Modern Sonic when they announced Mania Plus. They then announced the new racing game focusing on Modern Sonic, but they had already cancelled it by then too. 

[Salamander]

15 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Most series and franchises get by with their core players and very few supporting characters. I don't know why Sonic is seemingly exempt from this.

Like, I don't see anybody getting (notably) tired of seeing Mario scrap with Bowser, or Link scrap with Ganon, or Mega Man scrap with Wily, etc etc. 

 

15 hours ago, Josh said:

You haven't noticed all those franchises get called out for being repetitive constantly? Zelda doesn't get it as much as the other two, but that's because each game literally come with a new cast of characters beyond LInk, Zelda and Ganon and a lot of them don't feature Zelda or Ganon at all. 

If I'm honest, I think in most of these cases that ship has sailed because the series haven't set more of a trend of using different foes.  Zelda's switched it up pretty regularly in terms of not depending heavily on Ganon since early on, though it's still a rare game which doesn't feature some incarnation of Zelda herself; but Mega Man botched its chance to move on from Wily in MM4 (nobody's ever going to believe that Wily isn't behind everything), and Mario has never seriously entertained the prospect of other villains except in rare spin-off-tier titles.  I think Sonic is more or less the same; it would feel seriously weird to have a game starring Sonic which didn't include Eggman at all.

To me, the question these days is more about how you do something interesting with the characters within the confines of that formula.  The Mario RPGs have found some interesting uses for Bowser in their time; Wily didn't show up in Mega Man V for the GameBoy until most of the way through and still wasn't the final boss; Sonic had a whole run of games where Eggman was a major player but not the main villain or final boss (too long a streak, really).  I actually find these variations a lot more interesting than just not including the regular villain at all.

[Sean]

I like what Mega Man Battle Network did with Wily, by making him responsible for a lot of shit that goes down in the series as a whole but not have him be the villain of every specific game. iirc he only shows up in two or three games. The Zero series also implied as such with Dr. Weil. I think the classic MM line could really benefit from something like that; it would definitely freshen things up without having Wily be conspicuously absent from time to time for the sheer sake of it.

[molul]

I'd add Any only for a certain bonus stage. Thus, she could have any ability that doesn't fit classic gameplay, like the hammer.

[Eurisko]

I think if they are going to continue the classic games through 'Taxman' and the Mania name then I think they should keep it "Classic". The classic gameplay doesn't require an over bloated cast of characters. It just needs quality gameplay and a simple story, thats what made the series famous in the first place.

With that being said I'm exited for Mighty and Ray to be included for Mania Plus which brings the cast to five , but any more than that? it could be overkill. I think theres a fine line here that they have to be mindful of and not just include characters because they can but because they should and its a good idea to do so.

[Sonikko]

23 hours ago, FFWF said:

 

If I'm honest, I think in most of these cases that ship has sailed because the series haven't set more of a trend of using different foes.  Zelda's switched it up pretty regularly in terms of not depending heavily on Ganon since early on, though it's still a rare game which doesn't feature some incarnation of Zelda herself; but Mega Man botched its chance to move on from Wily in MM4 (nobody's ever going to believe that Wily isn't behind everything), and Mario has never seriously entertained the prospect of other villains except in rare spin-off-tier titles.  I think Sonic is more or less the same; it would feel seriously weird to have a game starring Sonic which didn't include Eggman at all.

To me, the question these days is more about how you do something interesting with the characters within the confines of that formula.  The Mario RPGs have found some interesting uses for Bowser in their time; Wily didn't show up in Mega Man V for the GameBoy until most of the way through and still wasn't the final boss; Sonic had a whole run of games where Eggman was a major player but not the main villain or final boss (too long a streak, really).  I actually find these variations a lot more interesting than just not including the regular villain at all.

I agree with you 100%, but we did have a game that didn't include Eggman at all, S&TBK. Not saying that's a good idea anyway!

 

As for an answer to the opening post, I don't want the cast to grow that big, not this soon, not "just because it can be done".

Modern Sonic has tons of characters that end up being unused after a couple of games, simply because you can't support a cast that large, either they all make an appearance and nothing else, or they're just padding for the game at one point. I don't want that to happen to Mania, and I'm pretty sure the Mania team knows better than that.

Mania is explicitly tailored towards a different audience, if you want that kind of experience, with an overblown cast of questionably "interesting" characters, you should look at the modern Sonic games and spin-offs, Mania will probably not be your thing.

I can see some characters from the past being brought back from time to time, like Mighty and Ray, but I honestly don't think we'll see modern characters classicized, and I feel that's for the best, even if I really love Blaze for instance and would like to see her appear in a new game. They should just stick to the main cast, maybe introduce Amy if they can make her not a chore to play as, and that should be it.

Mario manages to do it consistently fine, I can't see why Sonic can't do it too.

[Meta77]

You can make a game with a large cast. The thing is though you have to actually make a large enough game to put them in instead of reusing the same level 4 times

[Meta77]

Being set in the past sonic wouldn't know shadow yet. Also it nay explain why we no longer see 2 of the most obscure characters ever such as being killed or k8dnapoed after the game?

[BaronGrackle]

Amy is a natural choice and can likely be made to take Knuckles' paths via wall-smashing.

[Splash the Otter]

I'd be down for playable Amy and Fang, plus classic versions of some modern characters.

On 3/20/2018 at 10:31 AM, FFWF said:

If I'm honest, I think in most of these cases that ship has sailed because the series haven't set more of a trend of using different foes.  Zelda's switched it up pretty regularly in terms of not depending heavily on Ganon since early on, though it's still a rare game which doesn't feature some incarnation of Zelda herself; but Mega Man botched its chance to move on from Wily in MM4 (nobody's ever going to believe that Wily isn't behind everything), and Mario has never seriously entertained the prospect of other villains except in rare spin-off-tier titles.  I think Sonic is more or less the same; it would feel seriously weird to have a game starring Sonic which didn't include Eggman at all.

I really hate this mindset that Eggman needs to have some kind of presence in every game. It's one of the main reasons I consider him overrated.

[StaticMania]

Eggman needs to be in every game for the same reason Bowser needs to, because like Nintendo, SEGA never bothered to create other villains that can in the long term be a replacement for Eggman.

It has nothing to do with popularity.

[GentlemanX]

Nintendo could use the X-Nauts, Tatanga, Wart, Fawful, or any other one off villain they wanted should they so choose.

They don't because Bowser is expected and wanted to be the big bad. I think that's perfectly reasonable logic to make in the Sonic series as well with regards to Eggman. Games like Black Knight prove the game doesn't need Eggman to function fine, but in general it is expected for Eggman to be the main villain and therefore he is 90% of the time.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with that or with say games like Adventure, SA2, Heroes, 06, or Unleashed where Eggman isn't the final boss. He's still the main villain or one of the significant threats in each title there with only Heroes having a bait and switch which actually decreases his actions in the game. And again, it's just a plot twist rather than keeping Eggman or his iconography out of the game. Just playing a part or most of it or hearing about it you wouldn't know.

[Almar]

19 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Nintendo could use the X-Nauts, Tatanga, Wart, Fawful, or any other one off villain they wanted should they so choose.

They don't because Bowser is expected and wanted to be the big bad. I think that's perfectly reasonable logic to make in the Sonic series as well with regards to Eggman. Games like Black Knight prove the game doesn't need Eggman to function fine, but in general it is expected for Eggman to be the main villain and therefore he is 90% of the time.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with that or with say games like Adventure, SA2, Heroes, 06, or Unleashed where Eggman isn't the final boss. He's still the main villain or one of the significant threats in each title there with only Heroes having a bait and switch which actually decreases his actions in the game. And again, it's just a plot twist rather than keeping Eggman or his iconography out of the game. Just playing a part or most of it or hearing about it you wouldn't know.

Wart has little to set him apart enough from Bowser to bother with him for the platformers. Neither do the X-Nauts and Tatanga. Fawful is a meme character. The Mario games never tried to have a continuity outside of subseries (Mario and Luigi, the first Paper Mario trilogy) with even little info like the Mario Bros. having a surname changing so for all intents and purposes every duel with Bowser is the first. 

The non-Eggman villians range from giant monsters to edge recolors. With the latest one being an edgelord with a meme worthy backstory (Infinite). They're all weak since they all get forced into being the dark, edgy, totally serious business monsters Eggman isn't. It comes off that the developers really would rather exclude Eggman but don't since the players would riot.

[Splash the Otter]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Eggman needs to be in every game for the same reason Bowser needs to, because like Nintendo, SEGA never bothered to create other villains that can in the long term be a replacement for Eggman.

Who said anything about replacing him?

Quote

It has nothing to do with popularity.

It has everything to do with popularity. Just look at how new villains are treated if they even look like they might upstage him.

22 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Nintendo could use the X-Nauts, Tatanga, Wart, Fawful, or any other one off villain they wanted should they so choose.

They don't because Bowser is expected and wanted to be the big bad. I think that's perfectly reasonable logic to make in the Sonic series as well with regards to Eggman. Games like Black Knight prove the game doesn't need Eggman to function fine, but in general it is expected for Eggman to be the main villain and therefore he is 90% of the time.

1. Sonic isn't Mario, nor should he be expected to mirror every aspect of Mario.
2. Maybe it's time Sega started defying expectations.

Quote

To be honest, I don't have a problem with that or with say games like Adventure, SA2, Heroes, 06, or Unleashed where Eggman isn't the final boss. He's still the main villain or one of the significant threats in each title there with only Heroes having a bait and switch which actually decreases his actions in the game. And again, it's just a plot twist rather than keeping Eggman or his iconography out of the game. Just playing a part or most of it or hearing about it you wouldn't know.

Eggman can still be the main villain without having to appear in every game.

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

The non-Eggman villians range from giant monsters to edge recolors. With latest one being an edgelord with a meme worthy backstory (Infinite).

What's your point?

[Almar]

That villains who aren't Eggman are worse than him more often than not. Isn't it obvious?

[StaticMania]

19 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Who said anything about replacing him?

This isn't about replacing him, it's about him not being necessary to appear in every game. So obviously no villain is good enough to have a solo role.

Mind my wording.

[Splash the Otter]

20 minutes ago, Almar said:

That villains who aren't Eggman are worse than him more often than not. Isn't it obvious?

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

This isn't about replacing him, it's about him not being necessary to appear in every game. So obviously no villain is good enough to have a solo role.

Mind my wording.

You aren't making any sense.

[Multikaris]

32 minutes ago, Almar said:

That villains who aren't Eggman are worse than him more often than not. Isn't it obvious?

Well, there are some really silly villains other than him, but they’re no better than the edgy ones.

[Almar]

18 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

So show us these exceptions.

[StaticMania]

52 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

You aren't making any sense.

There's no reason to not have Eggman in every game...and no other villain created for the series is good enough to come back as the sole antagonist nor are Sonic Team good enough at writing a new interesting enough villain for that role.

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

So show us these exceptions.

Mephiles Vs Eggman (06 version of him)

Scourge, Finitevus, Eclipse and few other villains in Archie Comics

Lastly, lack of examples doesn't equal prove. In 2010 every one knew that good movies about female superheroes are impossible.

[Splash the Otter]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

So show us these exceptions.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I mean that whatever faults the other bad guys might have are unrelated to them not being Eggman.

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

There's no reason to not have Eggman in every game...

You can say that about pretty much every character.

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

and no other villain created for the series is good enough to come back as the sole antagonist nor are Sonic Team good enough at writing a new interesting enough villain for that role.

Then maybe it's time they ditched Pontaff and got better writers.