We need to define what is nostalgia, it's not what everybody thinks!

[Marco9966]

Watch this video:

This is from a guy who played Adventure games in his adulthood! In 2013! Not in his childhood like a lot of us! So he is definitely not affected by nostalgia and we can hear a more objective opinion on Sonic Adventure's successes and less liked aspects!

It's better to use gameplay mechanics and expand on them, instead of remaking green hill so many times!

What do you think?

Don't reply unless you watch the video fully! It's very constructive and has lots of good points.

[Eurisko]

I know he said watch the whole video first but 30 seconds in and he's given us the definition of the word nostalgia and then contradicts it. From the portion that I was able to sit through he blamed Izuka for nostalgia? You can't blame someone for something that is subjective to ones personal life experiences. 

For example , I LOVE the music from the Sonic 2 multiplayer results screen , why? Because it reminds me of when I was a kid at my friends house in a crowded games room full of kids playing Sonic 2 split screen winner stays on. So when this music was used for the skill shop in generations it was awesome. Though Izuka couldn't have possibly known that I'd have such a connection to it.  Nostalgia can't be enforced on anyone , it's either you feel it for something or you don't. 

I will say this though , future games could do with more original levels. 

I don't normally watch these sort of videos on YouTube because they are so negative half the time and most of the time they are a waste of time. I wish the people who make them would just enjoy the franchise or leave it alone. 

[Marco9966]

It's good to have nostalgia, I would have been incredibly happy if they used Station Square again. Once, but not 10 times!

 

 

[Eurisko]

2 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

It's good to have nostalgia, I would have been incredibly happy if they used Station Square again. Once, but not 10 times!

 

 

I agree with that. You can't keep using the same thing over and over or it just gets stale.  His whole video ihas very little to with nostalgia but more about how he would do things. I get that Green Hill has been done a bit and a few other zones for that matter but it's not all to with making people feel like they're 8 again. I think- in recent years anyway- that because Generations was so successful and it struck a chord with fans and Sonic Team to a certain degree went: "Ahhhhh that's what they want" and decided to do it a couple of more times.  

 

[Tarnish]

I agree with this guy. Not once have I ever thought "man, it would be so awesome to go through stage x again in a new game". What I always thought was "man, it would be so awesome to experience the thrill and joy of the physics of the classic games again" or "man, it would be so awesome to have a game again with the Sonic Adventure 2 grinding physics". It was the feeling, the experience, the gameplay style that I wanted back. Not the same setting or the exact same music, regardless how good they might have been. Those do NOHTING for me without proper execution, and Sonic 4, Generations wand Forces all were a failed execution for me. All I ever felt while playing Sonic 4 or Generations was "man, I sure wish I was playing the original stages instead of these HD garbages". No matter how pretty they were, I preferred the mechanically more fun and interesting stages. But all SEGA/Sonic Team is capable of is replicating the setting and music, and even those with only a varying level of success (Sonic 4..). They can't replicate the feeling, the experience. Sonic Mania managed that. And before anyone says "it's probably because the art style is the same", Sonic Fan Remix also gave me that same feeling of the classics, even tho the art style is very different in that demo.

And I also agree that I want to see the formulas evolve and improve. There's so much more there could be done with both the 2D classic and 3D adventure gameplay styles without the need of going off in the deep end with stupid bolted on crap.

Also, don't know how popular or in demand the Adventure formula actually is, but I'll just post this:
 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Can someone give me a York notes version. I don't wanna sit through someone's recommended video or whatever *insert random group here* plucked up to try and say 'this proves we're right.'

[MetalSkulkBane]

6 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Can someone give me a York notes version. I don't wanna sit through someone's recommended video or whatever *insert random group here* plucked up to try and say 'this proves we're right.'

It more-less goes like this

"Nostalgia

Putting Green Hill Zones everywhere = bad

Going back to Classic 2D style cause it worked and evolving it like Mania = good

Ipso Facto

People demand Adventure Style back = NOT that they are nostalgic and want Emerald Beach or something

People demand Adventure Style back = Adventure style worked and can be evolved."

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

7 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Don't reply unless you watch the video fully!

As a moderator I'm just going to say...no. Please feel free to ignore this, everyone. To the original poster - if you want to make a point, and want others to respond to it, it's your responsibility to make it yourself and write it in your post. Don't rely on a video to make your points for you and then demand that everyone watch the entire thing or else disallow them from replying. Using videos as a supplement or something is acceptable, but these "I watched an interesting video, please watch it in its entirety because it makes my points better than I could, therefore there's no need for me to actually make a case for what I'm proposing, and I will refuse to acknowledge your arguments unless you watch this whole video" type of arguments and posts are actually quite irritating.

I'm not going to shut down this topic because it seems like a discussion is starting anyway and we do have a summary of the video's contents thanks to MetalSkulkBane. However, in the future do not resort to "watch the video!!!" as an "argument" and if you're going to include a video as a major part of your post, please include a summary of it yourself (and your text should really be the main point, not the video).  Thanks.

[Osmium]

8 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

This is from a guy who played Adventure games in his adulthood! In 2013! Not in his childhood like a lot of us! So he is definitely not affected by nostalgia and we can hear a more objective opinion on Sonic Adventure's successes and less liked aspects!

It's better to use gameplay mechanics and expand on them, instead of remaking green hill so many times!

I was not a kid in the usual terms when I first started playing Sonic. I don't have childhood association or memories with Sonic that go back to when I couldn't speak. I was around 14 when I even started to care of Sonic's existence (started playing in 2013 myself) and I played the Mega Drive games and an assortment of others and find the Mega Drive games (including CD) to contain things that appeal to me most, and I think they are still an incomplete product as improvements can still be conducted, both in 2D and in 3D analogs. As a result I don't really have a direct bias towards any direction of the series, that roots from nostalgia at least. 

That's just my background I guess. It is good to remember that "OOO NOSTALGIATARD" is indeed a bad counterargument to use against someone in favour of past installments in any IP or series as you don't know their background to it at all. People can form their own opinion of anything from a rational standpoint irrespective of environment if they put their minds to it. 

[knuckles20]

I agree. Just because I prefer the Adventure formula over the Classic formula, that doesn’t mean I want City Escape to be the first stage in every game.

[Marco9966]

I wanted to post this also because Adventures fans are always told "but this game aged badly", "but the camera sucks", "but Sonic is the only one fast", "but it's too dark for a kid's game".

Well, here is a guy who never played Sonic Adventure until now, and he didn't have these complaints as much as some Sonic fans and some critics.

Our love for Sonic Adventure is not just nostalgia, it's also love for great gameplay, great story, great content diversity! Something we lack since 2008! (Sonic Unleashed was boost, but at least it had the merit of having some ambition and caring from the team story-wise).

Sorry if I didn't explain myself more in my first post, I just thought the video help more get this off my chest

Here is a video (it's a music, not an explanation video) a music-clip tribute to the greatest moments of 3D Sonic!

 

[Diogenes]

Finding one guy who likes the games independent of nostalgia doesn't disprove the notion that a lot of the love for the games is rooted in nostalgia. The problems with those games still exist.

[Marco9966]

Boost games have no problems with camera AFAIK, so why SEGA doesn't also do new Adventure games with a better camera?

(The camera is not even a big a problem in my opinion, we just need to be experienced in the game!)

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Boost games have no problems with camera AFAIK, so why SEGA doesn't also do new Adventure games with a better camera?

(The camera is not even a big a problem in my opinion, we just need to be experienced in the game!)

The reason they don't have issues is because you never need to adjust it because the levels are so heavily scripted.  Camera systems are incredibly complex to design (because the game's coding can't understand concepts such as "the player can't see something important at the moment" - everything has to be carefully crafted by the developers to just make sure that doesn't happen ever by accounting for as many possibilities that might cause the camera to get in the way of the player's ability to play the game as they can.

Doing that for a game where you're not changing directions often and you're not taking unpredictable actions due to the linearity of the stage design is a lot easier than doing it for an Adventure-style game where you're changing direction more often and doing things without heavy scripting.  You can't just slap a camera system from one gameplay style onto another for it to work.

Like, it might not seem like it, but from a game designer's perspective, you may as well have just said "Puyo Puyo vs Tetris has no camera problems, so why doesn't SEGA just do an Adventure game with a better camera?".

[Marco9966]

So they can look at other open-platformers like Mario or Zelda, where we can roam freely in an area.

[JezMM]

1 minute ago, Marco9966 said:

So they can look at other open-platformers like Mario or Zelda, where we can roam freely in an area.

Looking =/= having the ability to recreate what they're looking at.  That takes skill, time and money, and every game has to be made on a budget of these things, which is what leads to decisions like "if we design the game to be linear enough, we can program the camera to be in the perfect position at all times because we know the player can't go anywhere other than these places".  A game like Sonic, where you are expected to be able to traverse areas at high speeds, will bring it's own challenges in too.

Like, I know it must suck to have your ideas get shot down like this, but it feels like you don't really understand how game design works and how even the simplest things don't come for free.  I really hope Sonic Team can get the time and budget to REALLY work on something like what you propose but... they had three years to make Forces and look what came out of it.

[Marco9966]

I think we can have a middle ground:

SA had all these non-linear levels and camera problems.

But Sonic Heroes was linear, but vast at the same time, the roads were not too tight. And we could move freely unlike boost.

[Sean]

Don't tell classic fans that they're blinded by nostalgia when you, an Adventure fan, are being exactly that.

[knuckles20]

40 minutes ago, Sean said:

Don't tell classic fans that they're blinded by nostalgia when you, an Adventure fan, are being exactly that.

Same go for the classic fans when they tell us we only like the Adventure series, Heroes, etc because of nostalgia.

[BaronGrackle]

I grew up with the Genesis games but never jumped to the Dreamcast. Only in my recent adult years did I even watch them on Youtube.

In my opinion, it feels like SA2 and the Genesis games have a completely different tone from each other... with SA1 feeling like a middle ground between them.

I think someone can hate anime and love the Genesis games. I don't think someone can love SA2 without also liking anime.

[Polkadi~☆]

I grew up on the Classic and Adventure games. And if there's one thing I want more than anything, it's another game in the Adventure gameplay style. Not because of story or setpieces or whatever, but because the gameplay is well made, refined, and still perfectly playable.

Does this mean I want a straight rip of the Adventure gameplay?

No.

While the games are great and I always come back to them, they can always be improved. Better controls, better level design, better mechanics, etc. Even new mechanics would be great to work with. New upgrades, new abilities, a control scheme that doesn't have 100 moves mapped to one button, oh baby take me now. Take the problems of the formula, and improve them.

Just because something is old, doesn't mean it's bad.

 

So does that mean I want to see City Escape agai-- no

[Korke]

Time to deliver my own cents.

I, too, am part of the few people who only played the adventure games after being grown-up. My first Sonic games were on the Genesis, and then the GBA, but I never made the jump to the Dreamcast/PS1/PS2/whatever. The SEGA Saturn would be my last console ever, and since then, I've grew up on PC since my 7 yrs old. Would only touch the adventure games when my interest on Sonic returned on 2010/2011 for god-knows-whatever-reason.

But let's get to the point. Of course the adventure titles are flawed as hell, although I personally forgive most of the mistakes made on SA1 because it was the first shot. However, I'm not so forgiving on SA2 because it was meant to be better.... while in the end it was worse in termos of gameplay.

Even with the camera issues and glitches, aaaaand some bizarre physics behavior, I still say that SA1 was the 3d sonic game that I enjoyed the most. Heck, it is the only game that ever tried to emulate the rolling physics of the classics.

I don't have any issues with SA2 storytelling, but the linear level design is clearly a problem.

The genre roulette should had been gone as well - they could had easily made every character (except eggman) play the stages like how a Sonic game is supposed to be. Or, at least, to not make things worse: Shooting stages from Gamma were few and quick, while Eggman/MechTails took an entirety of 1/3 of the game.

Not to mention how the treasure hunting were made a lot worse by forcing the radar to only capture one signal per time...

 

 

I would like to see an attempt to bring back a little bit of the Adventure formula. It is easy to detect and write off what was wrong. Also, I remember there was one project of fangame, "Sonic Utopia" .... It did have a lot of praise from the community, and it did have a lot of SA1 in it, so I guess it could work.

[Iko]

I think they shouldn't try to recreate a style of gameplay that worked in the past or that has nostalgia value in it, but take the good elements from it and implement them in a new style.

Even games that are considered bad have good elements... this is what Sega, and any software house, should do IMO, look into the previous games and see what's good in them, then bring those good things into new games.

I'm convinced that there are good elements in most sub-series of the Sonic franchise, Classic, Adventure, Modern/boost, Advance and Rush especially, but I prefer a completely new formula that takes some elements from those games rather than a game that recreates the exact same gameplay 1:1 for nostalgia's sake (I'm also looking at Sonic Mania).

Also, I hope 2D sonic won't remain a Classic exclusive, because I think that modern 2D has potential too, and I would love a spiritual successor of the Advance series some day, an hybrid of classic and modern with momentum based gameplay and new gimmicks.

[Tracker_TD]

7 hours ago, Iko said:

I'm convinced that there are good elements in most sub-series of the Sonic franchise, Classic, Adventure, Modern/boost, Advance and Rush especially, but I prefer a completely new formula that takes some elements from those games rather than a game that recreates the exact same gameplay 1:1 for nostalgia's sake (I'm also looking at Sonic Mania).

Also, I hope 2D sonic won't remain a Classic exclusive, because I think that modern 2D has potential too, and I would love a spiritual successor of the Advance series some day, an hybrid of classic and modern with momentum based gameplay and new gimmicks.

Advance was just the Classics done worse - in terms of level design, and in terms of physics. Why go back to that, when they can build on the Classic gameplay that's already established as a better base for doing basically the same thing (adding new gimmicks), as they already have done by incorporating new moves such as the Drop Dash, the upcoming new characters Mighty and Ray (who apparently bring 'unique abilities' to the table), new environments etc etc. This just reads more like "I don't like Classic Sonic, and using him must be a nostalgia ploy."

Like, I grew up with Modern Sonic. I prefer Classic Sonic. Is that somehow 'nostalgia?' What if some folks just prefer the design and aesthetic of the earlier titles? Putting basic preference down to 'nostalgia' has gotten so bloody boring when it's been demonstrated that there's a reason these games are loved beyond that (i.e. they're bloody good), whereas something like the Adventure titles are on more shaky ground in that regard. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I played Advance games multiple times (my first 2D Sonic) and I'm certain they aren't even close to Sonic 2-3, Mania. They have few nice ideas, but basic gampaly and level design (what really matter) is simply worse.

I mean, partner gimmick, trick systerm, even punch butto were cute additions, but not they didn't innovate the gameplay. Drop Dash is probably bigger and better working addition.

I liked the new sprites, but they aren't deal breaker. Honestly, only addition of Amy and Cream was really cool and nothing stops Mania sequels from adding more characters.