Why Shadow isn't playable more often?

[Skull Leader]

Gameplay wise, Shadow really hasn't done much to stand out and "deserve" to be given a chance over other characters that potentially could bring more unique abilities, and I'm definitively not kidding when I say that even a humble character like Big the cat could provide some more interesting twists with his fishing rod.

In regards to how Shadow stands in the franchise, while he is still very popular, I personally see him more as a product of his time... a fad if you may back from where Sonic Team took the ill-advised decision of taking the franchise into a direction where things were being taken more seriously at the expense of the original charm it had. 

Sure, you could bring Shadow to a game with a more lighthearted atmosphere, but for better or worse, the character will forever be associated to all kinds of things that I frankly don't think have a place in the franchise and which were heavily used for his SA2 debut, and because of it, Shadow will always stand out... and not for the best of reasons.

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, CEAON said:

And you do realize that the overall tone of Team Dark's story was pretty serious, right? Filled with Shadow's identity crisis? 

They go through the same stages and have many of the same story beats as the other teams, since that's how the game is designed. I don't see it unless someone is thinking too hard about it, as y'all tend to do when it comes to Shadow.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Gameplay wise, Shadow really hasn't done much to stand out and "deserve" to be given a chance over other characters that potentially could bring more unique abilities, and I'm definitively not kidding when I say that even a humble character like Big the cat could provide some more interesting twists with his fishing rod.

In regards to how Shadow stands in the franchise, while he is still very popular, I personally see him more as a product of his time... a fad if you may back from where Sonic Team took the ill-advised decision of taking the franchise into a direction where things were being taken more seriously at the expense of the original charm it had. 

Sure, you could bring Shadow to a game with a more lighthearted atmosphere, but for better or worse, the character will forever be associated to all kinds of things that I frankly don't think have a place in the franchise and which were heavily used for his SA2 debut, and because of it, Shadow will always stand out... and not for the best of reasons.

Ya know, after reading this and the more I see these responses of yours, the more I’m really starting to see at this point that it’s less you think Shadow hasn’t done anything to stand out and far more to think you’re really saying this out of a sheer personal dislike of the character that you just want to be rid of.

It says a lot that you disregard his popularity and unique abilities, and then suggest Big the cat has more to contribute by comparison in spite of his own negative reputation.

[Skull Leader]

Well, of course I'm not going to like a character like Shadow if I feel that it does not appeal to me, my preferences, or for things like how the franchise had to change and transform, losing a lot of it's charm just to accomodate for one single character. Maybe Shadow does appeal to others and that's fine, more power to them. But I'm not going to pretend I like Shadow, nor force myself, much less compromise my own opinion, to which I am entitled and will back up if needed, to appease to others. I'm quite certain that you do not need for me to like the character in order for you to enjoy it, nor am I committing any kind of crime for expressing my own opinion, even if it so happens to be a less than positive opinion on him. At the very least, you won't hear from me one liners like "baaaw! the character ruined the game by just appearing" like what you find on the toxic comments of a typical Youtuber.

It doesn't matter how badass, cute, deep, funny, etc a character is, there will always be people that don't like them for their very own particular reasons.

Now, onto the other thig... I'm not saying that Big has more gameplay potential out of spite, wanting to be a contrarian or anything like that. I do sincerely believe what I just said because, what if Big the cat were to be playable in a Genesis like game, using his fishing rod to latch onto any surface and basically use a more simple and streamlined version of Chaotix rubberband mechanics for building speed? (Or to get a better idea, watch a plsythrough of Umihara Kawase for the Super Famicom and tell me if that wouldn't be an neat ability with potential for building momentum in a Sonic game?) Would that concept not hold more merit as something unique and original by how it implemente a new way of playing under the same exact rules over a character like Shadow that, at the most, will only have the same moves as Sonic with a more "aggressive" look into them, similar to what was done in Forces? (Something that Shadow will invariably end up being anyway, since he's supposed to be a "darker/edgier" version of the protagonist).

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Gameplay wise, Shadow really hasn't done much to stand out and "deserve" to be given a chance over other characters that potentially could bring more unique abilities, and I'm definitively not kidding when I say that even a humble character like Big the cat could provide some more interesting twists with his fishing rod.

In regards to how Shadow stands in the franchise, while he is still very popular, I personally see him more as a product of his time... a fad if you may back from where Sonic Team took the ill-advised decision of taking the franchise into a direction where things were being taken more seriously at the expense of the original charm it had. 

Sure, you could bring Shadow to a game with a more lighthearted atmosphere, but for better or worse, the character will forever be associated to all kinds of things that I frankly don't think have a place in the franchise and which were heavily used for his SA2 debut, and because of it, Shadow will always stand out... and not for the best of reasons.

With Big in mind, the two best games to keep in mind are Umihara Kawase and to an even greater extent Action Henk. Action Henk’s hookshot was made for Big, as is its slide.

 

Shadow on the other hand would feel very awkward in something like Mania or Colors. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Well, of course I'm not going to like a character like Shadow if I feel that it does not appeal to me, my preferences, or for things like how the franchise had to change and transform, losing a lot of it's charm just to accomodate for one single character. Maybe Shadow does appeal to others and that's fine, more power to them. But I'm not going to pretend I like Shadow, nor force myself, much less compromise my own opinion, to which I am entitled and will back up if needed, to appease to others. I'm quite certain that you do not need for me to like the character in order for you to enjoy it, nor am I committing any kind of crime for expressing my own opinion, even if it so happens to be a less than positive opinion on him. At the very least, you won't hear from me one liners like "baaaw! the character ruined the game by just appearing" like what you find on the toxic comments of a typical Youtuber.

I mean, I’m not exactly telling you to like a character you dislike. That really wasn’t my point given that I have characters I don’t like as well, such as Big the cat (outside of Archie Comics at least).

But for the sake of analysis, injecting personal prejudice into your point kinda shoots itself in the foot and makes your case come off as a thin-veiled version of toxic rant that kinda says the same thing, if worded otherwise.

Quote

Now, onto the other thig... I'm not saying that Big has more gameplay potential out of spite, wanting to be a contrarian or anything like that. I do sincerely believe what I just said because, what if Big the cat were to be playable in a Genesis like game, using his fishing rod to latch onto any surface and basically use a more simple and streamlined version of Chaotix rubberband mechanics for building speed? (Or to get a better idea, watch a plsythrough of Umihara Kawase for the Super Famicom and tell me if that wouldn't be an neat ability with potential for building momentum in a Sonic game?) Would that concept not hold more merit as something unique and original by how it implemente a new way of playing under the same exact rules over a character like Shadow that, at the most, will only have the same moves as Sonic with a more "aggressive" look into them, similar to what was done in Forces? (Something that Shadow will invariably end up being anyway, since he's supposed to be a "darker/edgier" version of the protagonist).

No, mainly because of the fact that you can just as easily come up with something unique for Shadow as well, which Sonic Team have done in Sonic 06 (in spite of how terrible and buggy that game was).

You can give Shadow ranged abilities, use his rocket boots to give him more mobility than Sonic or have him hover over hazards, use Chaos control to bypass obstacles that other characters would hve trouble with, and generally make him more offensive-oriented like Knuckles, but with his own set of abilities.

Just about any character can have unique merits if you grant them reasonably.

[Blacklightning]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

You can give Shadow ranged abilities, use his rocket boots to give him more mobility than Sonic or have him hover over hazards, use Chaos control to bypass obstacles that other characters would hve trouble with, and generally make him more offensive-oriented like Knuckles, but with his own set of abilities.

Just about any character can have unique merits if you grant them reasonably.

I'm sure I already said this at some point, but I feel a good Sonic moveset is always mobility first and fighting second. Both at the same time if possible, but mobility always takes priority. This is true even of characters who otherwise appear to be combat focused, like Knux (even if you were to take gliding out of the equation entirely, his punches themselves have movement properties depending on the game, like the lunge on his third punch in SA1 or the homing nature of his combo in SA2). By contrast, this is a property Shadow's yet to display when he's not just copying Sonic verbatim, and most of his non-teleporty abilities go as far as to drag him to a complete stop whenever they're used.

Honestly, if it were up to me I'd just design almost his entire moveset around teleporting, kinda like what he does in the intro of his own game:

And any other moves he has on top of that are built directly to compliment a teleport about to happen or already happened (like Chaos Blasting instead of DBZing someone to death wherever it's appropriate). Hell, give his jet boots more purpose besides a fancy running animation, like I dunno, a double jump instead of a jump dash.

[Shadowlax]

I mean, shadow basically can fly with them shits now. You could probably do a lot of shit with the jet boots. Also yeah , Shadow with a teleporting moveset sounds neat. 

( especially if they made some form of game, where you did action. And played as a character, like a character action game, where you play as shadow . ) 

[JosepHenry]

I disgree completely about Shadow already doing enough.

Shadow is the character that has the most potential of them all, yet they keep not getting him right. He's supposed to be just a darker Sonic clone. Just as cocky and confident. He almost never has meaningful interactions with anyone, yet his personality mixed with some more cheerful and lighthearted characters could bring some really fun interactions. I think him paired up with Sonic could bring that just fine. Also Blaze is also a Sonic clone, I wish she was playable too but she has the other dimension excuse.

At least I can thank Forces of at least letting him be playable...

[Shadowlax]

16 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

I disgree completely about Shadow already doing enough.

Shadow is the character that has the most potential of them all, yet they keep not getting him right. He's supposed to be just a darker Sonic clone. Just as cocky and confident. He almost never has meaningful interactions with anyone, yet his personality mixed with some more cheerful and lighthearted characters could bring some really fun interactions. I think him paired up with Sonic could bring that just fine. Also Blaze is also a Sonic clone, I wish she was playable too but she has the other dimension excuse.

At least I can thank Forces of at least letting him be playable...

When haven't they got him right, in your opinion. 

I wouldn't call shadow confident.

I would call him self assured. And while that seems like it means the same thing, in this context there is a distinction . 

[JosepHenry]

17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

When haven't they got him right, in your opinion. 

I wouldn't call shadow confident.

I would call him self assured. And while that seems like it means the same thing, in this context there is a distinction . 

Not right as he could be I should say. Sonic '06 Shadow lacked expressiveness and emotion for example but he was pretty good in there anyway.

Also he is confidant and cocky, the "I'm the coolest" quote pretty much says that.

[Shadowlax]

6 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

Not right as he could be I should say. Sonic '06 Shadow lacked expressiveness and emotion for example but he was pretty good in there anyway.

Also he is confidant and cocky, the "I'm the coolest" quote pretty much says that.

The i'm the coolest quote might as well not exist , because the rest of his character in that game, and subsequently never acts like he said that. Especially when his whole deal is him being afraid of his power and seeing himself as a monster, even a bit in sonic adventure 2. And I think sonic 06 shadow expressed himself fine enough, he got across what he wanted to.

 

[Dash Speed]

You know what, after reading this thread, I have to ask what constitutes Shadow as a relevant character if his own popularity is juxpositioned with his polarized reception and inconsistent fan demand of wanting him vs not wanting him? Shadows a sonic copy? Shadows too edgy? Shadow needs to wait till other characters get a turn?(lol), and Shadow is out of place are the ones that stand out for me here in trying to rationalize why Sonic Team in all their incompetence doesn't use Shadow in more appearances in games, even though he's the 2nd most popular character in multiple polls in years gone by.

What's with the passissiveness about holding Shadow back? He's been out of main steam sonic games in over 8 years, the guy still wins polls and has such a colossal fandom that you literally can't put shadow on the same level as other characters minus sonic since he's more popular than all of them. Does it really matter of he's hogging the spotlight if that's what poll numbers reflect? It's about how he's not even allowed to stick around in being a main cast member alongside tails, knuckles and Amy in current sonic titles , meaning that Sega really doesn't respect/trust shadow on the same level as those characters in a way. Minor roles as of boom and forces are no enough to sell the character.

Shadow has been neglected and stripped of all his iconic staple coolness that every fan remembered him as, they use his character recently with no real respectable interest in keeping him relevant in bringing new fans to the series.

It's easy to say they don't do this for any other character but 2 things that seperate him from say Blaze

 1. Shadow isn't any other character if logically speaking he is so popular enough to exist and work in sonic plots equally as His own character draw(see miles edgeworth or zero)

2. Unlike tails, Knuckles and amy, Shadow doesn't have a direct friendship with Sonic but is billed as His rival. Yet, They are still put in more games than Shadow and are labeled main core characters for marketing purposes than shadow is,  Shadow  being more popular than them on a poll standpoint should be Eggman status in being Sonics co star theoretically speaking.

But somehow Sega will not listen or even acknowledge his existence in a important way with how they overlook adding him in smash recently(seriously they missed a true chance to spark a new gen of sonic fans with a character that represents most of its mass fan following) because they just either hate him or literally just have no business skills to take a big risk on him. His own game should have taught them how to never to let them differ Shadow from gameplay or anything serious. It's not that hard to build Shadow from the way they have build sonic. They should know this, they should know people love shadow more than the majority of major sonic characters and at least, give him more a role to play with sonic like tails and Eggman but have some faith he can tell his own story distinct from sonic with the same gameplay style. That's what I feel is one of the things holding Shadow back from being a truly well received character with interesting gameplay and some actual interest in his character and personality....faith.

No one has any faith in Shadow any more........not his fandom, not the writing of his character in a consistent way(they keep changing his character over and over to get the fans off their backs about him not being good enough for sjws), not even Sonic Team and Iizuka has any faith in him and it shows with every sonic that puts him down the latter of irrelevant optional character that has no equal focus to the classic three(see sonic team racing).

 

[Salamander]

2 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

(they keep changing his character over and over to get the fans off their backs about him not being good enough for sjws)

...Dare I ask.

[Dash Speed]

5 hours ago, FFWF said:

...Dare I ask.

One word. Sonadow.

[Diogenes]

That is...the opposite of clarifying things.

[Dash Speed]

18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That is...the opposite of clarifying things.

It's probably a number of things, but it one of my core issues that I speculate about what's been happening to Shadow recently, they pander shadows current character to thr sonic fangirls from the sjw communities who somehow make up the majority of the current state of sonadow.

[Wraith]

There's no special reason. They have a general hesitance toward adding new playable characters in general.

He'll probably become more common now that they've done it in Forces without making much of an incident. 

[Zaysho]

37 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

It's probably a number of things, but it one of my core issues that I speculate about what's been happening to Shadow recently, they pander shadows current character to thr sonic fangirls from the sjw communities who somehow make up the majority of the current state of sonadow.

"I see fanart I don't like on Tumblr" is not an argument. Since all you've been doing recently is plug your fanboyism into every conversation you can, I don't see any reason to let this continue. You'll be receiving a strike.

[Rowl]

i think the issue with Shadow is that you can only make him playable, if he serves a purpose in the story. Otherwise I see no reason why he should be playable again. This is not only a rule for Sonic, this goes for pretty much any other series. Mario for example also sometimes has Peach or Toad as playable characters in their main line games, but only than, if they can offer something or have an excuse for been playable. 

Shadow and other Sonic characters needs this to. The developers can not just shoehorn him into a game, just for the sake off. 06 showed us how this could turn out.

[Shadowlax]

Oh boy what's going on in here

Oh dear

Ok

22 hours ago, Rowl said:

i think the issue with Shadow is that you can only make him playable, if he serves a purpose in the story. Otherwise I see no reason why he should be playable again. This is not only a rule for Sonic, this goes for pretty much any other series. Mario for example also sometimes has Peach or Toad as playable characters in their main line games, but only than, if they can offer something or have an excuse for been playable. 

Shadow and other Sonic characters needs this to. The developers can not just shoehorn him into a game, just for the sake off. 06 showed us how this could turn out.

Sonic 06 turned people off because it was awful , and would have been awful regardless of the amount of playable characters. And your first point doesn't make too much sense either because, in a game about punching a doctor in the face...he could also want to punch a doctor in the face.

Ok so now that that is out of the way, i guess this is a response to you, and dash speed. And to put it simply, you are over complicating a problem, and sonic forces shows you are. Its pretty clear that if the DLC didn't exist, shadow would have just shown up midway through the story and that's it. They legit just "shoehorned" him into DLC and it was fine... not only was it fine, people liked it and there's been a lot of discussion about him being there instead of classic sonic. So they put him wherever they want, the shoehorning argument while it does have elements of truth, is also kind of a big cover for sonic teams incompetence, cowardice, being out of touch or a combination all 3.

The simple answer is, they didn't want to make other characters playable, they were scared because they misinterpreted criticism. Now folks like Dash speed will be like " well if that's the case why are knuckles, amy and tails around ore often " to put simply because the shadow fanbase wants shadow to be playable. So here's where the element of truth comes into play. So they don't want shadow around because they don't want to mess with his character, because they don't want him to be seen as someone who just stands around waiting for sonic. They did that once, in generations and it was made fun of , heavily, and shadow's appearances now seem actively combating this narrative.

So to put simply, they want shadow to be his own thing. But shadow wasn't playable, so shadow never showed up really. Now they are testing the waters again, water test seemed successful even in a not great game , he's probably gonna show up more.

That doesn't mean sonic team doesn't make mistakes or the entire premise of what I just said is built of the sonic team misinterpreting criticism in the first place. But I feel like you all are over complicating what is essentally " We want shadow to be doing shit when he's around , that's apart of his appeal" . And I think while they do want him to be seen a certain way you all might be overestimating the story importance of sonic.

Also Dash Speed's statements about "SJW's on tumblr " don't make any sense because this is a series who's controlling parties don't seem to think much of and actively reduce the role of girl characters and have been for years. And on some level don't even seem to acknowledge the fact that sonic does have a pretty large girl fanbase. Ruby eclipse does,  sonic team does not. So the idea they are " Catering to SJW"s on tumblr " is weird when sonic team has a problem with its girl characters...I wish they would cater to them more.  Having girls in prominence would be cool, but that only happens when sonic team isn't the ones making the thing. I guess my point is, that statement is beyond ridiculous.

[MadmanRB]

Simply put there is too much similarity in Sonic and Shadows gameplay.

Shadow in terms of gameplay is not interesting, this is why his starring game has bullshit like firearms in it.

At least when playing as Knuckles or Tails the mechanics are a little different, Knuckles can glide and climb as Tails can fly for short distances.

But Shadow? meh boring to play to be honest.

I mean it fit Sonic adventure 2 but outside of that shadows gameplay is too simular.