Why Shadow isn't playable more often?

[BaronGrackle]

To be fair, I enjoy playing Tails in Sonic 2.

Same game. Same powers. Different pilot on the Tornado.

[GOAT]

As bad as 06 is, the idea of having Sonic, Shadow and Silver be playable was the right idea. I would love a game where the 3 characters you can play are those and the gameplay is close enough to Sonics where all three are viable.

[Blacklightning]

Just now, GOAT said:

Silver

 

1 minute ago, GOAT said:

gameplay is close enough to Sonic

Are... are you sure we played the same game here?

[GOAT]

2 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

 

Are... are you sure we played the same game here?

Obviously Sonic 06 was different. What I am saying is. I wish they made a game that had all three playable with similar gameplay.  That would be sweet.

[A person, that exists]

Eh, I guess it's because the new games don't really need Shadow.

Not to mention, do you really want Shadow to be in EVERY game? Like, a bit of Shadow here and there is nice, but making him play major roles in every single Sonic game just kinda takes away the magic, take Rivals and Shadow's own game for example.

As for the "Shadow has no reasons NOT to be in the game story-wise", that's total bull. Shadow is a government agent, of course he has better things to do, other than pursue Sonic for no reason whatsoever (Kinda like Amy, now that I think about it). The "Make him an unlockable" thing is also kinda weird, because with no story attached to it, newcomers wouldn't understand who the heck is Shadow and why is he there.

But, if Shadow HAS to appear in every single game, I would like him to have his own sets of levels with a different story. Not DLC, really, but rather unlockable content, kinda like the final story in Heroes or SA1, where you have to beat the main stories first. However, I guess that making Eggman and the Eggman robots bosses in Shadow's episode is kind of illogical, because the good doctor is fighting Sonic every five minutes, so, why not bring Black Doom back? Not only would this be a rather interesting comeback, but it could also show Shadow's importance: While SOnic is saving the world from Eggman and getting all the spotlight, Shadow acts in the, ahem, shadows to stop a larger threat.

Not to mention that that would make a perfect opportunity for the writers not to write Shadow into Sonic's story, and therefore avoid the "Pointless but cool Shadow" trope, that plagues games like Forces or Colors DS. 

53 minutes ago, GOAT said:

Obviously Sonic 06 was different. What I am saying is. I wish they made a game that had all three playable with similar gameplay.  That would be sweet.

Rivals had that, actually. 

[Darth InVaders]

Why Tails isn't playable more often?

Why Knuckles isn't playable more often?

Well, while I admit I really wish we could get these 3 characters playable more often, I also do not want them shoehorned in - that is what got the Sonic series in trouble in the first place. It is a lot of work to develop all these play styles and then create miles worth of stages and a story around that character, when they still haven't perfected Sonic himself.

First they should make a game more like Green Hill Paradise Act 2, where Sonic uses momentum and ball physics like he should with no automated splines and get that down (though I know GHP2's more open level design would probably be too much). Then they should make a game with Sonic, and then add one of his friends every now and then (I'd start with Tails, then Knuckles, then Shadow).

[Razule]

1 hour ago, A person, that exists said:

The "Make him an unlockable" thing is also kinda weird, because with no story attached to it, newcomers wouldn't understand who the heck is Shadow and why is he there.

Unlockables are kind of for fans though, or at least they usually are things fans would recognize. It would cut off a lot of possibilities if they didn't do things simply because "newcomers wouldn't recognize it". 

[Dash Speed]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:30 PM, A person, that exists said:

Eh, I guess it's because the new games don't really need Shadow.

Not to mention, do you really want Shadow to be in EVERY game? Like, a bit of Shadow here and there is nice, but making him play major roles in every single Sonic game just kinda takes away the magic, take Rivals and Shadow's own game for example.

As for the "Shadow has no reasons NOT to be in the game story-wise", that's total bull. Shadow is a government agent, of course he has better things to do, other than pursue Sonic for no reason whatsoever (Kinda like Amy, now that I think about it). The "Make him an unlockable" thing is also kinda weird, because with no story attached to it, newcomers wouldn't understand who the heck is Shadow and why is he there.

But, if Shadow HAS to appear in every single game, I would like him to have his own sets of levels with a different story. Not DLC, really, but rather unlockable content, kinda like the final story in Heroes or SA1, where you have to beat the main stories first. However, I guess that making Eggman and the Eggman robots bosses in Shadow's episode is kind of illogical, because the good doctor is fighting Sonic every five minutes, so, why not bring Black Doom back? Not only would this be a rather interesting comeback, but it could also show Shadow's importance: While SOnic is saving the world from Eggman and getting all the spotlight, Shadow acts in the, ahem, shadows to stop a larger threat.

Not to mention that that would make a perfect opportunity for the writers not to write Shadow into Sonic's story, and therefore avoid the "Pointless but cool Shadow" trope, that plagues games like Forces or Colors DS. 

Rivals had that, actually. 

Same could be said for Tails, Knuckles and Amy. Do we need them, in every Sonic based plot and continuity as the main cast alongside Sonic and Eggman, their not protagonists, their side characters, and they have less to do with the story based on their lore

[Shadowlax]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:30 PM, A person, that exists said:

Eh, I guess it's because the new games don't really need Shadow.

Not to mention, do you really want Shadow to be in EVERY game? Like, a bit of Shadow here and there is nice, but making him play major roles in every single Sonic game just kinda takes away the magic, take Rivals and Shadow's own game for example.

As for the "Shadow has no reasons NOT to be in the game story-wise", that's total bull. Shadow is a government agent, of course he has better things to do, other than pursue Sonic for no reason whatsoever (Kinda like Amy, now that I think about it). The "Make him an unlockable" thing is also kinda weird, because with no story attached to it, newcomers wouldn't understand who the heck is Shadow and why is he there.

But, if Shadow HAS to appear in every single game, I would like him to have his own sets of levels with a different story. Not DLC, really, but rather unlockable content, kinda like the final story in Heroes or SA1, where you have to beat the main stories first. However, I guess that making Eggman and the Eggman robots bosses in Shadow's episode is kind of illogical, because the good doctor is fighting Sonic every five minutes, so, why not bring Black Doom back? Not only would this be a rather interesting comeback, but it could also show Shadow's importance: While SOnic is saving the world from Eggman and getting all the spotlight, Shadow acts in the, ahem, shadows to stop a larger threat.

Not to mention that that would make a perfect opportunity for the writers not to write Shadow into Sonic's story, and therefore avoid the "Pointless but cool Shadow" trope, that plagues games like Forces or Colors DS. 

Rivals had that, actually. 

He isn't playable in every game. This last game was the first time he was playable in a main sonic game in like... a decade. Your logic falls apart there. And I don't care about magic, I want shadow playable more. The magic is , I get to play as shadow... that's it. 

As for story reasons. He could either want to save the world from something, or gun sent him to save the world from something. Solved. 

 

[Salamander]

3 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Same could be said for Tails, Knuckles and Amy. Do we need them, in every Sonic based plot and continuity as the main cast alongside Sonic and Eggman, their not protagonists, their side characters, and they have less to do with the story based on their lore

Funnily enough, I agree.  No reason not to swap out cast members now and again to keep things fresh rather than stale, although it's true that certain characters look less plausibly absent if it's a cast-heavy game in general.

[Multikaris]

I wonder what his playability in Forces means for the future of playable characters in general. Both of the Phantom Ruby Saga games sold over 1 million and had multiple playable characters. Maybe next Sonic Team game will have more playable established characters, rather than just versions of Sonic or a character maker? But, how will they be used? Will they still be an enjoyable experience? 

[SaturnWolf]

I think it's because, in general, his character has sort of run it's course.

He had his redemption arc in Sonic Adventure 2, died, came back to life, and then a whole lot of garbage happened. 

Shadow in general doesn't really fit super well in the more Modern Sonic titles like Colors, Lost World and Generations because of how he's designed and the sort of era he comes from, the era of super dark and serious Sonic games where, aside from Forces, more recent titles have been pretty light on the story, let alone the seriousness? Tails and Knuckles could fit into newer games fine, sure, but it would be super jarring to see Shadow blaze through Green Hill. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

30 minutes ago, CEAON said:

it would be super jarring to see Shadow blaze through Green Hill. 

 

You do realize it literally happened in Sonic Forces, right? World didn't exploded.

Just saying, if there was DLC to Lost World that allows me to beat the crap out of Deadly Six with Shadow, all dialogue removed (If I really want to I'll do edgy narration myself) then I would call that a 100% positive result.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You do realize it literally happened in Sonic Forces, right? World didn't exploded.

Just saying, if there was DLC to Lost World that allows me to beat the crap out of Deadly Six with Shadow, all dialogue removed (If I really want to I'll do edgy narration myself) then I would call that a 100% positive result.

I want dialogue. 

Or rather I want a future game that happens to have Shadow playable, and you can fight the deadly 6. Its basically no challenge, and he is disappointed in all of them. As sort of reference to them being disappointing bad guy characters, as a former bad guy character assessing them

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I want dialogue. 

Or rather I want a future game that happens to have Shadow playable, and you can fight the deadly 6. Its basically no challenge, and he is disappointed in all of them. As sort of reference to them being disappointing bad guy characters, as a former bad guy character assessing them

1 My point was Shadow fitting in current games, not current games fitting for Shadow (if you get what I mean). I'm trying to prove that Lost World with Shadow would work without much work (heck, mods like that probably exist). Your comment isn't invalid, just not connected with my point.

2 With that said, your idea hurts gameplay for plot sake. You want 6 crappy boss fights, just for sake of Shadow looking macho? Seems like a waste of time to me. Even squashing them into one boss would take a lot of work.

3 Lastly, I not fan of this type "my fav characters beats up lamer guys" writing. This franchise degraded its villains enough (Eggman in Colors, Deadly Six and Eggman in Lost World, Eggman in Boom....). Deadly Six should be either improved or forgotten. If I need someone making fun of Sonic past mistakes I'll just look at Sonic Twitter.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

1 My point was Shadow fitting in current games, not current games fitting for Shadow (if you get what I mean). I'm trying to prove that Lost World with Shadow would work without much work (heck, mods like that probably exist). Your comment isn't invalid, just not connected with my point.

A mod does exist as far as i'm aware. But unfinished. Lost world so trash that the modding community kinda gave up on it

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

2 With that said, your idea hurts gameplay for plot sake. You want 6 crappy boss fights, just for sake of Shadow looking macho? Seems like a waste of time to me. Even squashing them into one boss would take a lot of work.

I don't think it hurts gameplay at all. I think you could get 6 actuall good boss fights out of the deadly 6 in a new game. And it isn't about shadow looking macho, you could use it as a sort of fun meta humor about the series. Jokes are fun man.

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

3 Lastly, I not fan of this type "my fav characters beats up lamer guys" writing. This franchise degraded its villains enough (Eggman in Colors, Deadly Six and Eggman in Lost World, Eggman in Boom....). Deadly Six should be either improved or forgotten. If I need someone making fun of Sonic past mistakes I'll just look at Sonic Twitter.

I think its fine with deadly 6 , they are goofy ass characters from a goofy ass game. What I don't want this with is say infinite. While the idea of infinite becoming an eternal jobber is funny, he's so much of a failed concept, that would just be reinforcing how bad he is. It works for the deadly 6 because their designs are sillier and weren't meant to be that serious in the first place. While i'l be the first one to say i'm a bit tired of the sonic self deprecating, I am fond of self criticism and self reflection through humor. And having the successful character criticize the one that didn't work out , might actually yield successful analysis. 

You seem to be getting aggressive assuming this is some shadow macho thing

No, jokes are funny and introspection is cool man. Calm ya self. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

32 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think it hurts gameplay at all. I think you could get 6 actuall good boss fights out of the deadly 6 in a new game. And it isn't about shadow looking macho, you could use it as a sort of fun meta humor about the series. Jokes are fun man.

I think its fine with deadly 6 , they are goofy ass characters from a goofy ass game. What I don't want this with is say infinite. While the idea of infinite becoming an eternal jobber is funny, he's so much of a failed concept, that would just be reinforcing how bad he is. It works for the deadly 6 because their designs are sillier and weren't meant to be that serious in the first place. While i'l be the first one to say i'm a bit tired of the sonic self deprecating, I am fond of self criticism and self reflection through humor. And having the successful character criticize the one that didn't work out , might actually yield successful analysis. 

You seem to be getting aggressive assuming this is some shadow macho thing

No, jokes are funny and introspection is cool man. Calm ya self. 

10

I assure you I wasn't trying to be aggressive. I guess I kinda jumped to conclusion that your idea is just about idolizing Shadow and ignoring everything else.

With that said I still have a hard time imagining this joke to work. I can't just visualize it in a funny way.

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, CEAON said:

I think it's because, in general, his character has sort of run it's course.

He had his redemption arc in Sonic Adventure 2, died, came back to life, and then a whole lot of garbage happened. 

Shadow in general doesn't really fit super well in the more Modern Sonic titles like Colors, Lost World and Generations because of how he's designed and the sort of era he comes from, the era of super dark and serious Sonic games where, aside from Forces, more recent titles have been pretty light on the story, let alone the seriousness? Tails and Knuckles could fit into newer games fine, sure, but it would be super jarring to see Shadow blaze through Green Hill. 

He was both edgy and lighthearted in LEGO Dimensions.

"First you'll need to hone your senses in order to find the ULTIMATE FLOWERS."

 

"Yes, THESE are the flowers we need! Now to figure out which will look best WHERE... It has to be the ULTIMATE ARRANGEMENT. Are you REALLY up to the task? Or are you just another faker?"

[SBR2]

Here's the thing. I've been snarky about Shadow on here but I do like him. But he's literally just Sonic gameplaywise. You can throw in some Chaos Powers sure but for the most part there's nothing you can do with him Gameplaywise that you couldn't do with Sonic.

[SaturnWolf]

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You do realize it literally happened in Sonic Forces, right? World didn't exploded.

Just saying, if there was DLC to Lost World that allows me to beat the crap out of Deadly Six with Shadow, all dialogue removed (If I really want to I'll do edgy narration myself) then I would call that a 100% positive result.

Yeah, a post apocalyptic Green Hill with everything going to a more Sand Hell type of motif. Not entirely the same thing. 

 

3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

He was both edgy and lighthearted in LEGO Dimensions.

"First you'll need to hone your senses in order to find the ULTIMATE FLOWERS."

 

"Yes, THESE are the flowers we need! Now to figure out which will look best WHERE... It has to be the ULTIMATE ARRANGEMENT. Are you REALLY up to the task? Or are you just another faker?"

Sure, that COULD work, but that would require competent writers on the game's side, something we really don't have.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, CEAON said:

I think it's because, in general, his character has sort of run it's course.

He had his redemption arc in Sonic Adventure 2, died, came back to life, and then a whole lot of garbage happened. 

Shadow in general doesn't really fit super well in the more Modern Sonic titles like Colors, Lost World and Generations because of how he's designed and the sort of era he comes from, the era of super dark and serious Sonic games where, aside from Forces, more recent titles have been pretty light on the story, let alone the seriousness? Tails and Knuckles could fit into newer games fine, sure, but it would be super jarring to see Shadow blaze through Green Hill. 

You do realize that he was in the lighthearted game that was Heroes, right? Game with colorful, saturated colors and was about as dark as Colors, Lost World, and Generations put together.

That is straight up nonsense what you’re saying, and is transparent as hell in what you’re implying.

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You do realize it literally happened in Sonic Forces, right? World didn't exploded.

Technically happened before Forces in the form of Seaside Hill back in 2004.

 

[SaturnWolf]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

You do realize that he was in the lighthearted game that was Heroes, right? Game with colorful, saturated colors and was about as dark as Colors, Lost World, and Generations put together.

That is straight up nonsense what you’re saying, and is transparent as hell in what you’re implying.

 

And you do realize that the overall tone of Team Dark's story was pretty serious, right? Filled with Shadow's identity crisis? 

[Diogenes]

Shadow did feel kind of out of place in Heroes but I'm not fond of Heroes' overall tone to start with, so it's kind of a wash.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

36 minutes ago, CEAON said:

And you do realize that the overall tone of Team Dark's story was pretty serious, right? Filled with Shadow's identity crisis? 

It was about as serious as your average Disney movie, so that’s not really major offense against it.

[Shadowlax]

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I assure you I wasn't trying to be aggressive. I guess I kinda jumped to conclusion that your idea is just about idolizing Shadow and ignoring everything else.

With that said I still have a hard time imagining this joke to work. I can't just visualize it in a funny way.

That's fair , i'm not a proffesional comedian or writer. 

I'm a fan of meta humor, or story telling being used to criticize writing or tropes. And a lot of the meta humor in sonic, disappointing me because its JUST self deprecating. I would like meta humor to be in used in a way that can be constructive and in many ways make elements of the franchise look good. I think scourge from the comics after a point was an excellent example of this