Mega Drive Mini announced. "ATGames are no more!"

[Sean]

WILY

WARS

[Conando]

I was skeptical at first, because mini consoles haven't necessarily had great line ups, save for the SNES Classic (but no Chrono Trigger is a goddamn crime), but Wily Wars, Phantasy Star IV, Contra Hard Corps, and BOTH the Illusion games? Jesus Christ, SEGA, you REALLY want my money!

[simtek34]

I know it probably won't happen, and we'll get Sonic 3D Blast in Wave 4, but I have a small feeling that Sonic 3 & Knuckles will be in Wave 4. SEGA has gone through a lot of licensing for a lot of these games, like Konami and Capcom games, and the Disney Illusion Games. Who says they can't meet up with Brad Buxer and the MK Estate? Could be a big surprise for the system

[Tornado]

It's kind of... odd, that they are including a brand new port of an arcade game that is pretty shit instead of the already-existing port of the sequel to it, but the rest of the list isn't bad either. Some really good inclusions (Road Rash II!) and another Star Fox 2-level shocker (Mega Drive Tetris!?).

[TheOcelot]

Also, the final list of games for the Jp release:

Quote

lisia Dragoon

Assault Suits Leynos

Columns

Darius

Dynamite Headdy

Monster World IV

Langrisser II

Lord Monarch: Tokoton Sentou Densetsu

Road Rash II

Slap Fight MD

Snow Bros.: Nick & Tom

Tetris

 

Quoting from the TSS article:

SEGA has revealled a "Mega Drive Mini CD, 32X, Sonic 1 and S&K" decoration models.

 

This is nice and all but I'd rather they release an actual 32x/CD mini with playable 32x/CD games. A guy can dream...

[Tornado]

Apparently, the Tetris version also isn't the original Mega Drive port of the Sega arcade game. It's a theoretical "this is how an arcade perfect port would have looked if Sega had released it later" new version.

 

 

 

 

Which... I'm not really a fan of, to be honest. Mega Drive Tetris, problems or not, is a historically significant game. This one will be... just another new version of Tetris, except deliberately made worse than it could be to fit the aesthetic of a Genesis game. It's a minor thing, but... why? No one thinks of Tetris or Darius when they think of the system (Darius II wasn't even called that in the US), so what's the point?

[Sega DogTagz]

Decorative Mods?  That's actually kind of cute.

2 hours ago, TheOcelot said:

This is nice and all but I'd rather they release an actual 32x/CD mini with playable 32x/CD games. A guy can dream...

Well, now they have the shell's for those units on standby. Might pave the way for a 32x/CD mini after the Genesis finishes its run. (no point to revealing or releasing that now)

[Plasme]

We don't get Sonic 3 but we do get Sonic Spinball.

Lol.

[Tornado]

No one should have ever expected we would get it in the first place.

[Sean]

Just mod S3K in. Since we have Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 AIR I don't really see the big deal behind wanting Sega to port S3K anymore

The rest of the roster makes up for it tenfold. Would have liked to have Ristar though. I'm also assuming there's going to be no region select which means we're stuck with the shitty harder version of Dynamite Headdy

[Myst]

19 hours ago, Tornado said:

No one should have ever expected we would get it in the first place.

Considering we're getting Wily Wars and Disney games, yeah, I thought that was a possibility. =/

On 6/4/2019 at 4:15 PM, Plasme said:

We don't get Sonic 3 but we do get Sonic Spinball.

Lol.

Spinball was utter trash. Why does Sega feel the need to include it in every collection? It's not exactly a high point for their flagship character. That is like Nintendo putting Mario is Missing or Mario's Time Machine on the SNES Classic.

Spinball is a game that Sega should be embarrassed of, not trying to shove down consumer's throats. Heck, it makes 3D Blast look good by comparison.

[Sean]

Sluggish walking physics aside, Spinball is fine for the first couple levels. The Showdown is complete ass, though

I can have fun with the game if I sit down with it but it's one I've never beaten legitimately in my life time

[Plasme]

I don't believe in the Sonic 3 music conspiracy theories. SEGA just never promotes it because Sonic 2 is far more popular and iconic. Sonic 1 is the first game and gets kudos for that, but outside of the hardcore fanbase, no one really knows what Sonic 3 is. Most people think of it in the same way as Sonic CD. Heck, sometimes they think of Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as independent games.

[Sean]

4 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I don't believe in the Sonic 3 music conspiracy theories. SEGA just never promotes it because Sonic 2 is far more popular and iconic. Sonic 1 is the first game and gets kudos for that, but outside of the hardcore fanbase, no one really knows what Sonic 3 is. Most people think of it in the same way as Sonic CD. Heck, sometimes they think of Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as independent games.

This is some of the most batshit insane mental gymnastics I've seen on this forum in a long time

[Plasme]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

This is some of the most batshit insane mental gymnastics I've seen on this forum in a long time

I didn't even post anything particularly aggressive in my post, but here you are, reigning down hell like usual.

I just disagree that there's this big Sonic 3 music conspiracy theory (which is why fans just assume that SEGA doesn't want to re-release it and promote it as much as they do with Sonic 1 and Sonic 2). The music theories are very speculative and rarely have any evidence specifically in linking their opinions to SEGA not wanting to promote the game because of its music issues. And I think saying that 'Sonic 2 is more popular and iconic than Sonic 3' is not exactly "mental gymnastics", I think most fans would agree with that. 

So I really don't see why you think it's so laughable to think  that Sonic 3 doesn't get re-released as much as Sonic 2 because it isn't and never has been, as popular. 

[Sean]

"Sega hasn't released Sonic 3 since 2011, has never remixed any of the offending tracks in Sonic 3, has turned Taxman and Stealth away from remaking Sonic 3 despite them working on a pitch build, and has remained completely silent on the issue despite one Sonic 3 composer confirming back in 2012 that a lawsuit was about to go down and another composer REFUSING to discuss the game due to the 'legal shit' he's been dealing with regarding the game's music and Sega themselves.

"But it's all just a fucking conspiracy and it's only because Sonic 3 isn't popular."

[Plasme]

My problem with the Sonic 3 music conspiracies is that people aren't level headed about it and want to read the evidence to fit their agenda.

Taxman and Stealth's project not getting greenlight has no bearing whatsoever on the music issues of Sonic 3. SEGA could just not want to release it on mobile for various other reasons, such as that Sonic 3 has never been as popular as Sonic 1 and 2. Sonic CD got the release because it was a rare novelty at the time and very few people had played it if they didn't pick up Gems. So marketing wise, it was this Sonic game most people hadn't played and built up curio status in the media as a result. Sonic 3 didn't have that kind of appeal. Maybe it has something to do with the music, it's entirely possible, but its entirely speculation. It not being released on mobile certainly doesn't prove that it was because of the music.

The offending tracks have in fact been reused in various re-releases of the game. People go on about the Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection having different music, but Sonic Jam (which was a port, so the game being emulated excuse can't be used) was released a few months later and used the original music. So that argument goes out the window (it makes no sense that they couldn't make MIDI renditions of the songs but were allowed to re-release the existing offending tracks in a new port). Sonic Mega Collection and the Steam emulations didn't have to replace the music and still haven't (despite the Sonic CD port having to change the Toot Toot Sonic Warrior theme to remove the vocals). Typically when there's legal issues the game is immediately pulled (as is the case with Donkey Kong Country on the Wii). You can still buy Sonic 3 on Steam. Donkey Kong Country having legal issues is also speculative, but at least that's a bit more believable since the entire game was pulled. Or in the case of GTA San Andreas, the game gets updated to remove the offending tracks (not happened with Sonic 3)

The songs have never been remixed, which could point to something. That's the only decent evidence which I know of. But as a sidenote, I do remember discovering that Ice Cap has been remixed in an album affiliated with SEGA. I can't remember where it was, if anyone knows it please tell me what it was. I remember people used to argue around it because the melody was made different enough to not be a legal issue.

And the posts you mention go back almost ten years, we have no idea if that's still an issue now. 

So yes, I do believe that Sonic 3 did at various points have music issues and legal troubles, but there's no way of knowing that it's still an issue now, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it's stopping the game from being re-released. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

My problem with all this is I don't understand why SEGA could go through the effort of not only getting Capcom and Konami on board for Castlevania Bloodlines/Mega Man Wily Wars, latter of which is fairly rare at this point due to a limited US release, and could go through getting rights from Disney for the Castle of Illusion stuff, but didn't even try with S3&K.

Like I get that music rights are a thing, and there's probably a clause in Michael Jackson's estate that might stop that soundtrack being used, but IIRC - wasn't there an alternatively PC OST made at one point to replace the music? I mean, I love the S3&K OST, but if it came down to it, I'd rather just they re-release the game, with the replaced OST as opposed to not bothering with it at all.

And this argument of S3&K isn't popular is fucking ridiculous. It's one of the most well-regarded games in the entire series. On top of that, your entire argument falls apart when they decide to place in Sonic Spinball, one of the most meh games in the whole series, based loosely on SatAM, and is nowhere near as popular as the main series over S3&K, the ending to the classic trilogy, and one of the most beloved games by fans.

[Blacklightning]

10 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Like I get that music rights are a thing, and there's probably a clause in Michael Jackson's estate that might stop that soundtrack being used, but IIRC - wasn't there an alternatively PC OST made at one point to replace the music? I mean, I love the S3&K OST, but if it came down to it, I'd rather just they re-release the game, with the replaced OST as opposed to not bothering with it at all.

Not entirely. Most of the PC OST is just MIDI interpretations of the originals with a few odd exceptions. Those off the top of my head being: Knux's theme in Sonic 3, Launch Base, Icecap and Carnival Night. I don't think anything on the Sonic & Knux side of things is affected at all.

[Myst]

Wasn't Angel Island and Hydrocity used in Mania? Just have Tee Lopes do soundalikes for a rerelease.

[Tornado]

Oh boy. There's a lot to unpack here.

 

13 hours ago, Plasme said:

I don't believe in the Sonic 3 music conspiracy theories.

Yeah, we know.

Quote

SEGA just never promotes it because Sonic 2 is far more popular and iconic.

No one cares how much you like Sonic 2.

Quote

Sonic 1 is the first game and gets kudos for that, but outside of the hardcore fanbase, no one really knows what Sonic 3 is.

This is an interesting soundbite. I'll get back to it in a second as well. It's complete horseshit and I'm sure you're aware of it, but still, I'll get to it.

13 hours ago, Plasme said:

I didn't even post anything particularly aggressive in my post, but here you are, reigning down hell like usual.

 

I'll get to this at the very end.

Quote

And I think saying that 'Sonic 2 is more popular and iconic than Sonic 3' is not exactly "mental gymnastics", I think most fans would agree with that. 

Perhaps. There isn't a single way you can quantify that in terms of 2019, but perhaps.

 

 

That's not what you were arguing though.

Quote

Sonic CD got the release because it was a rare novelty at the time and very few people had played it if they didn't pick up Gems. So marketing wise, it was this Sonic game most people hadn't played and built up curio status in the media as a result.

Making nostalgia-grab rereleases for games people largely haven't played is such a time honored tactic. Especially when using them as marketing fodder for numbered sequels to a completely different, much better known and revered game that they didn't rerelease at all.

 

13 hours ago, Plasme said:

My problem with the Sonic 3 music conspiracies is that people aren't level headed about it and want to read the evidence to fit their agenda.

Yes, compared to claiming (with absolutely no basis) that Sega won't release the game generally considered the peak of the entire franchise is because people wouldn't buy it  even though to that point it was released on a near-yearly basis like most Sonic/Genesis games were, I can see how speculating that a game with obvious but deliberately anonymous contributions from a scandal-ridden and humongously popular musician who has since died may be related to it not having new releases would be a completely outlandish "conspiracy theory."

 

Quote

SEGA could just not want to release it on mobile for various other reasons, such as that Sonic 3 has never been as popular as Sonic 1 and 2.

"Sega could just not want easy money from a humongous market that buys pretty much anything if its less than $5."

Sega would release fucking Sonic-themed anal beads if they could get profit on it. They stroke off the Genesis library so much that it has shot nothing but dust for two entire console cycles. The beginning of this thread was full of "who gives a shit" when this console was originally announced, because Sega has released at least two collections of Genesis games of some sort every console generation for twenty years and this one was looking just as terrible as the three previous Genesis collections they had released over 3 consecutive years. If it was on Genesis and they produced it, Sega will make sure you had a chance to buy it.

 

Except apparently the company that constantly rereleased mediocre crap like Sword of Vermillion and Columns as part of collections and even standalone digital titles wouldn't release a tentpole Sonic game because it's not popular enough. Right.

Quote

So I really don't see why you think it's so laughable to think  that Sonic 3 doesn't get re-released as much as Sonic 2 because it isn't and never has been, as popular. 

Who gives a fuck about Sonic 2? If the baseline for whether a game is popular enough to be considered for a rerelease is "being as popular as Sonic 2 was," this plug and play and every other one of the half-dozen+ similar compilations Sega has done would have two games on them.

 

 

The baseline for comparison for Sonic game popularity justifying rerelease are mediocre spin off games farmed out to fill out a holiday season. This console that this thread is about has 66% of those games that were released on the Genesis. Spinball is the litmus test for Sonic game popularity. Mean Bean Machine is the litmus test for Sonic game popularity. You know this, because you've already posted in this thread 3 times to that effect before you even raised this completely batshit argument:

On 5/16/2019 at 9:53 AM, Plasme said:

If Sonic 3 doesn't make it in when Sonic Spinball did, then damn.

What's the big deal about Sonic 3 not making it in when Spinball did? The game Mania stood directly on top of to such critical and financial success just isn't popular enough to justify inclusion compared to the spinoff (based on the continuity Sega just shut down) farmed out to independent contractors over 6 months for people who wanted a Sonic game in 1993 but didn't have a Sega CD.

On 5/16/2019 at 1:40 PM, Plasme said:

I don't believe the Sonic 3 music conspiracy theories, if they dont include it then it'll be a shame.

Why is it a shame that Sonic 3 won't be included? The only people that really care about it are people hardcore into the Sonic fanbase; and Sega knows they won't buy a Sonic game targeted specifically at them.

On 6/4/2019 at 4:15 PM, Plasme said:

We don't get Sonic 3 but we do get Sonic Spinball.

Lol.

What's so funny about Sonic 3 not making it in when legitimately popular game Sonic Spinball did? Sega just may not have wanted to include it as a sweetener when the game hasn't been sold outside of the Steam release for a decade; and those reasons absolutely can't have anything to do with something Sega had similar problems with for 4 other Sonic games they released on the system.

 

Quote

And the posts you mention go back almost ten years, we have no idea if that's still an issue now. 

Those posts he mention post-date the most recent release the game has ever had. The fact that it's still on Steam now means nothing, because you don't know the context of which it was released in the first place. The immediate response to any legal drama is not "pull game from every avenue of sale until it is cleared up." Sega could easily be allowed to sell it in spaces they had already put it before any theoretical legal drama started; and they certainly wouldn't pull it unless forced to if that's the only way it's still easily available.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To wrap it up:

13 hours ago, Plasme said:

I didn't even post anything particularly aggressive in my post, but here you are, reigning down hell like usual.

Maybe, instead of being something that justifies the persecution complex you've built up, Sean responded the way he did because he thought the claim you were making was stupid. If this is a situation that frequently occurs with your posts where you call out how wrong-headed conventional wisdom on a topic of discussion is, something I can all too easily believe, perhaps it means something else other than people are just out to get you.

 

 

 

There may very well be reasons aside from all of the issues with the music that has prevented Sega from re-releasing Sonic 3. The evidence is in whispers and not much has been heard in a while. But it is devoid of all sense of reason to repeatedly insist that Sega singled out a Sonic game, and perhaps the highest revered Sonic game at that, to be the Genesis game in their back catalog that they deliberately ignore for a decade whole releasing nearly everything else of note.

[PickleBrows]

I'm surprised Sonic 3D didn't make it into the list since it's usually a regular on compilation releases but I can understand them not wanting to give another slot to Sonic since they're trying to be as all-encompassing as they can manage within their game limit.

Having said that, a small part of me hoped that they might have reached out to Jon Burton to see about giving his Sonic 3D Director's Cut an official release via the MD Mini. Would've been a pretty unlikely thing to happen but it'd have been pretty cool to see a "remastered" version of by the game's original programmer get included.

[Plasme]

The main problem with your post is that only hardcore fans of Sonic hold Sonic 3 in so much reverence. That's not to say that the average gamer thinks Sonic 3 sucks, they typically think it's good or great, they just aren't as familiar with it. For the average gamer, Sonic 3 is like Mega Man 3, or Donkey Kong Country 3 or Super Mario 2. It's something they know about and have heard is good, but maybe haven't played it themselves. And I'm talking here purely in terms of popularity and not quality.

If you talk to the average gamer, they tend to have very fond memories of Sonic 2 or at least know it's significant, and I know a lot of people here seem to get a bit funny about Sonic 2;s design, but there's no denying that it's probably the most famous game on the Mega Drive in the same way that Super Mario World is the most famous game on the SNES. Sonic 2 is a hallmark in the same way that Halo, Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty are. And I adore Sonic 3 (I actually prefer it to Sonic 2 in many ways, as I'm getting the idea I have some hard on for Sonic 2), but it just doesn't have that level of fame. Sonic 2 was a console seller and the system's defining product, that doesn't just go away because the fanbase now considers Sonic 3 as the superior game in design.

So really, it's no surprise that SEGA have always pushed Sonic 2 at the expense of Sonic 3. As I've said, Sonic 1 was the original so gets special treatment for that. Sonic 2 is Sonic 2. While with Sonic 3, it's kind of in a strange position, it's not as iconic as Sonic 2, but it isn't as fundamental as Sonic 1. It's the game which can always be somewhat neglected because it just isn't as much part of the collective memory.

And I know you were taking the piss a bit with my Sonic CD piece, but I don't see why you disagree. It was clearly marketed around its elusivity, and the reviews were framed around 'here's a lost good Sonic game'. At the time, the game had built up a cult following on the internet generally because of the fact it had a good reputation but no one could play it. It isn't totally unheard of to market a game on the fact that it's a curio and no one's heard of it (in fact, that's exactly what Gems collection did). It's the kind of thing which would only happen in that one place in time and probably would never happen again.

And I do think there are issues with the Sonic 3 music, but a lot of people's arguments just flat out don't make sense. Sonic and Knuckles Collection PC had tracks changed for legal reasons, but then Sonic Jam remade the games from scratch and used the original music for Sonic 3 only a few months later. Makes no sense. In fact, people who talk about Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection always leave out Sonic Jam. Why did the Sonic CD port have to change its Toot Toot Sonic Warrior track for legal reasons but Sonic Jam's Sonic 3 music didn't have to be changed? So I think that outright de-confirms that Sonic and Knuckles PC Collection had different songs for copyright reasons, which is a big factor of the conspiracy.

Then Sonic Mega Collection and every other re-release has the music intact, (and the Steam version can still be bought now with no issues). You could be right that they can still sell existing products, but it still makes me raise my eyebrow, especially when only Sonic and Knuckles PC changed the music and I've just proved that had nothing to do with legal issues over the music. 

I'm not saying that there are no music issues, just that we have no idea what the situation is now, and it's never been as big an issue in releasing it as the romantic story people like to spread. The music has only ever been changed once (and was quickly reset to its original music a few months later in Jam). The fact the game hasn't been re-released as much could honestly be down to all kinds of reasons. 

And honestly, Sonic Spinball could have been put on here over Sonic 3 for the sake of 'variety' and other dumb executive decisions. It's not like these mini consoles don't make dumb decisions, even if this does look like one of the better ones.

[Sean]

That's a whole lot of words backed up by absolutely nothing. You got some quotes by Sega that prove the reason they neglect Sonic 3 is due to popularity? Because I already provided a quote that backed up the legal issues surrounding the game's music. If you don't have quotes then you're just talking out of your ass and I know I'm going to believe two music composers on the game (one of them VERY disgruntled, even) over some random person on an obscure internet forum trying to tell me that I'm full of shit because that's just what they think.

[Plasme]

I'm making a theoretical point. Damn you moderators are aggressive as fuck.

I've already said that the posts you've raised indicate that there were music issues with Sonic 3. It's just that they are nearly ten years old, and we have no idea that they are still relevant to the case as of now. And I don't think they prove that Sonic 3 no longer gets re-released now because of music issues when it could be all kinds of other reasons.