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How does Shadow compare to other video game Anti-Heroes?


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1 hour ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

Is it bad that find your approach to reacting to this rather hilarious?

It's no biggie to me either, but he's obviously distorting some aspect of archie shadow in order to make him objectively likable.

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And speaking of beating around the bush...

You can't beat around the bush with sonic fans.

48 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I'll tell you like I tell everyone else on here who throws this at me: I honestly don't care if it's your opinion, it doesn't protect you from criticism.

And your criticism is basically "I like this way this character is, so you're wrong"

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Which is what you were given. Beyond that, I'm not going to entertain your heated Shadow fanboyism, as I know I've told you once before. Especially when a lot of the stuff I said weren't even opinions. :rolleyes:

I'm not being a fanboy here, your the Shadow fan who likes a inconsistently written character from the games with Rose Tinted Glasses, think he's better as a Lawful Good with no grounds to say he is based on the context of his character in those stories, where he is flip flopped from massive irrational jerk who fights children to kind and gentle honorable knight and likes to court fucking princesses/little girls because thats something he does in the games right(sarcasm). You like archie Shadow more as less as the actual Shadow, thats not right. Archie Shadow was all over the place and made no sense in arcs about him and team dark, he barely gets any focus without Rouge and Omega being his guiding narrative and all the fights with the good guys he's are objectively written as him being in the wrong, with him having to make up for his idiotic behavior which only needed to be in SA2 as a one time thing he learns from, so we can see how he himself conducts himself in future games as one of the most mature characters in the series, we instead see Shadow keep repeating the same mistakes in the comics on being a hot head who pushes his luck, which should be a Sonic and Knuckles thing. So excuse me for not liking a poorly inconsistant character with character traits he has never shown and would get mad at being near a flower instead of the cool business like sharp edged shadow we know in love from any of his games. 

 

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Just now, Dash Speed said:

And your criticism is basically "I like this way this character is, so you're wrong"

Not really, but I'm just gonna let your words speak for themselves.

 

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3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Not really, but I'm just gonna let your words speak for themselves.

 

My words are cannon to the character, feel free to disprove them. You and Shadowlax are the ones who tell others Shadow's a heroic goodie good like Sonic and follows the rules without question. But you keep at it, you'll see the reason eventually on Shadow being more harsh, meaner and recently a bigger jerk to Sonic or his crew in other media has always been his natural to his character from the source.  

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...Without getting into what constitutes an accurate description of Shadow in canon (which I suspect may be impossible to pin down), this topic is actually doing a lot to sell me on the idea of Shadow as a lawful good antihero.  If we interpret Shadow as a character who is absolutely inflexible and who once he's decided a course will pursue it without compromise or compassion, then that feels like an excellent foil to Sonic, who also has his goals but is driven a great deal more by his whims and changing mood as to how he goes about it.  If Shadow has any finer feelings (and he'd never admit it), he is completely able to suppress those in a way which Sonic could not (and would not) do.  In that sense, Shadow's "antihero" status is partly determined by the contrast between him and the designated hero of the series in their approach, but the way he expresses himself in such a ruthless and antagonistic way also isn't going to win him many friends and followers, and it's perhaps his biggest blind spot that that approach may actively hinder his pursuit of his goals.

I like what this says about the way Omega and Rouge relate to Shadow, too.  Omega is something like Shadow at his worst, pure distilled violence, nothing but a living weapon with no purpose except to fight until there's no one left; Rouge, even if she too has her moments of ruthlessness and willingness to discard others' feelings, has more of a sense of fun in life and forms a humanising influence.  That's probably what makes them a good team.

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11 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

He literally was out to murder characters as a good guy in the comics.

Except for Black Doom, which was an exception since he was leading an alien invasion to invade the earth and eat everyone who lived on it.

11 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow fights are the most brutal and merciless battles in the series, he fights without no restraint doesn't care about crippling opponents, if Amy had a real hammer and shadow used it on her, she'd die instantly.

Someone already pointed out that that's not true.

Speaking of that moment with Amy and Shadow

732b70ff7f05b15ac97ec13b414ac2f7.jpg

Spoilers: Amy is still alive.

11 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

In generations, he's willing to use chaos spear against sonic which is usually killing attack and less lethal than sonic's homming attack.

In both Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Generations, Sonic and Shadow have attacks are similar in strength.

11 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

And you call him a good guy despite his battles are basically curbstomp scenes and completely over the top brawls.

It's funny how the only universe this is true is in the 3rd season in Sonic X, which is not canon to the games.

You've already explained multiple times you don't enjoy the canon version of Shadow anyway, so moving on...

11 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Last I checked Shadow was in the wrong the whole time and Rouge called him out of it.

Neither Knuckles nor Shadow were wrong about options involving the Master Emerald. The problem is that instead of talking about it and reaching a suitable solution for both parties, they were quick to punching each other's lights out instead.

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My words are cannon to the character, feel free to disprove them. You and Shadowlax are the ones who tell others Shadow's a heroic goodie good like Sonic and follows the rules without question.

You really aren't reading Shadowlax or Conquering Storm's Servant posts then, because you're really missing their points and doing them and everyone else who disagrees with you a disservice.

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9 hours ago, FFWF said:

...Without getting into what constitutes an accurate description of Shadow in canon (which I suspect may be impossible to pin down), this topic is actually doing a lot to sell me on the idea of Shadow as a lawful good antihero.  If we interpret Shadow as a character who is absolutely inflexible and who once he's decided a course will pursue it without compromise or compassion, then that feels like an excellent foil to Sonic, who also has his goals but is driven a great deal more by his whims and changing mood as to how he goes about it.  If Shadow has any finer feelings (and he'd never admit it), he is completely able to suppress those in a way which Sonic could not (and would not) do.  In that sense, Shadow's "antihero" status is partly determined by the contrast between him and the designated hero of the series in their approach, but the way he expresses himself in such a ruthless and antagonistic way also isn't going to win him many friends and followers, and it's perhaps his biggest blind spot that that approach may actively hinder his pursuit of his goals.

That's a really good summation.

I also think shadow works in that way, because shadows strait shooter attitude isn't always seen as wrong. There are quite a few times where shadow wanting to get the point, helps a lot. Also funnily enough, him being ruthless hasn't not earned him followers? Maybe its the nature of sonic land, but it seems like people still want him to be around and be friends with him, despite his disposition. Not really a counter to your point, by anymeans  just a funny observation. 

I don't know if you are interested in the comics. But IDW might be interesting going foward if they play on that idea of shadow's disposition ( along with a bunch of fake shadows have been running around doing bad guy stuff ) causing folks not to trust or like him. On the other hand, it could be fun if they went full meta and the towns people were the fanbase costantly screamingly they love him. Either or

9 hours ago, FFWF said:

I like what this says about the way Omega and Rouge relate to Shadow, too.  Omega is something like Shadow at his worst, pure distilled violence, nothing but a living weapon with no purpose except to fight until there's no one left; Rouge, even if she too has her moments of ruthlessness and willingness to discard others' feelings, has more of a sense of fun in life and forms a humanising influence.  That's probably what makes them a good team.

While i'm anti team dark, I just don't think they work as a team. I do think its why these three work as friends. Bonus you didn't mention, the other fun bit is shadow the stand off grumpy guy is kind of the moral center of the team. While rouge is fun and humanizing , there are plenty of moments in a lot of media where she shows flagrant disregard for everyone for her needs. And omega is a special metal violent baby. Shadow's kind of the one at who will tell them they kind of need to do the right thing. And that guy being the moral center is an interesting dynamic

That said though, I think they all need a long break from one another and to exist as characters by themselves for a while. But this isn't the thread for that

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20 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

My intent wasn't to down an opinion than to warn that something might not be accurate from another perspective...which you can kinda see how this is turning out given the response in return.

Although you might not see it that way given how I handled it, so I don't blame you.

Yeah, I'm quite aware Dashing's... sudden less than respectful attacks on opinions so far. And it's okay. Your opinionated to some level of bias. But unlike Dashing Speed, you are at least presenting a decent case for your side. So there really isn't any reason to worry too much. I'd rather take consideration in what you and Shadowlax have mentioned over his, anyway.

 

19 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

You can't beat around the bush with sonic fans.

I would disagree, because that's what you've been doing. Or at least you playing keep away with opinions that are not agreeable.

 

19 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

It's no biggie to me either, but he's obviously distorting some aspect of archie shadow in order to make him objectively likable.

And your criticism is basically "I like this way this character is, so you're wrong"

I'm not being a fanboy here, your the Shadow fan who likes a inconsistently written character from the games with Rose Tinted Glasses, think he's better as a Lawful Good with no grounds to say he is based on the context of his character in those stories, where he is flip flopped from massive irrational jerk who fights children to kind and gentle honorable knight and likes to court fucking princesses/little girls because thats something he does in the games right(sarcasm). You like archie Shadow more as less as the actual Shadow, thats not right. Archie Shadow was all over the place and made no sense in arcs about him and team dark, he barely gets any focus without Rouge and Omega being his guiding narrative and all the fights with the good guys he's are objectively written as him being in the wrong, with him having to make up for his idiotic behavior which only needed to be in SA2 as a one time thing he learns from, so we can see how he himself conducts himself in future games as one of the most mature characters in the series, we instead see Shadow keep repeating the same mistakes in the comics on being a hot head who pushes his luck, which should be a Sonic and Knuckles thing. So excuse me for not liking a poorly inconsistant character with character traits he has never shown and would get mad at being near a flower instead of the cool business like sharp edged shadow we know in love from any of his games. 

What it sounds like to me is that you have some personal vendetta on the idea of Shadow being anything but a killing machine. While you are entitled to that opinion, what you are really doing is counter productive to a opinionated debate on what Shadow is morally. You're using the fact that it's your opinion as a crutch which warrents no respect, as much as ridicule for being disrespectful of other's opinions. No matter how biased they can be.

If anything, it's as Sonictrainer has just said-

8 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

You really aren't reading Shadowlax or Conquering Storm's Servant posts then, because you're really missing their points and doing them and everyone else who disagrees with you a disservice.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Didn't think I'd comment on a Shadow thread anytime soon, but @Shadowlax and @Dash Speed's debate has actually made me look at Shadow more as Neutral Good or "True" Good by 3rd Edition D&D definition. He's someone always looking out for the better good and doing whatever is necessary to achieve. He isn't chaotic as he doesn't act on whims but his own set moral outlook and he isn't lawful either as he'll disregard the law if it is necessary for the greater good. That is for all extents and purposes a Neutral or "True" Good character and typically the alignment that best describes a hero more so than an anti-hero to me.

On a slightly aside tangent though, I've been skimming Megaman imagery of late (don't follow the series but 11's trailer got me curious) and everytime I see Zero all I can think of is Shadow for some reason. I may be totally off base so could someone more familiar with him and all of his problems maybe clear that up for me and address why they give similar vibes to me (asides from girls they like dying horribly on a regular basis it seems).

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2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Didn't think I'd comment on a Shadow thread anytime soon, but @Shadowlax and @Dash Speed's debate has actually made me look at Shadow more as Neutral Good or "True" Good by 3rd Edition D&D definition. He's someone always looking out for the better good and doing whatever is necessary to achieve. He isn't chaotic as he doesn't act on whims but his own set moral outlook and he isn't lawful either as he'll disregard the law if it is necessary for the greater good. That is for all extents and purposes a Neutral or "True" Good character and typically the alignment that best describes a hero more so than an anti-hero to me.

On a slightly aside tangent though, I've been skimming Megaman imagery of late (don't follow the series but 11's trailer got me curious) and everytime I see Zero all I can think of is Shadow for some reason. I may be totally off base so could someone more familiar with him and all of his problems maybe clear that up for me and address why they give similar vibes to me (asides from girls they like dying horribly on a regular basis it seems).

Oh zero and shadow are extremely similar, X is pretty similar to shadow too though he lacks some elements. 

The only Megaman Character who is closer, is Bass Specifically from Battle network series that specific bass. Which Is literally shadow, that's not a joke. Its like they saw shadow, and made that version of bass, from back story to temperament to execution a lot closer to shadow than the previous incarnation that was a lot more rowdy. And while I have no proof of this, given the battle network games came out in the early 00's if you told me the person who made that bass, liked sonic adventure 2. I wouldn't put it past you. 

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I see. So the similarities weren't just me seeing things that weren't there. Admittedly though I am surprised to here that X is also similar to Shadow in some ways.

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