My Opinion: Sonic and the Black Knight was the Perfect Swan Song for the Adventure Series

[ClassicKnuckles]

I consider Black Knight to be the final Adventure game, as the other 3D entries have had boosting, and Lost World was a mix, so I still consider this to the last entry. This was the last time Crush 40 did main themes for the game, and they did 3! The music is perfect. The story is amazing, especially the entry, where Sonic's summoned to help Merlina, ,and Sonic is still doing what he does best, and all he has to do is look around, and he know's what's going down, and proceeds to help Merlina. The multiple character playstyles are also fun, and Excalibur Sonic is badass. What's your thoughts on the game? (by the way, Knight of the Wind and Fight the Knight are amazing and sum up the game well.)

[FReaK]

I don't really get why you think that. You were not able to move around freely, the controls were terrible, the story was meh..just because Crush 40 did the music it doesn't make BK an adventure like game. I'd agree with 06 being the last Adventure game, yes...but BK? nah.

[ClassicKnuckles]

No. I liked the gameplay, the story, the levels, cutscenes, music, and literally everything about it. It's just plain fun, and the controls are easy to use. (For me at least.)

[Muscles Maximum]

That doesn't make it anything like the Adventure games though.

[ClassicKnuckles]

The controls feel Adventure-like and the tone does too.

[Muscles Maximum]

No, they literally, factually don't feel at all like the Adventure games. The Adventures have free roaming controls and movement. If anything they can feel quite slippery. The gameplay style is completely different. Black Knight is as linear as you can get, all you can do is strafe left and right, the sword controls are nothing like anything in the Adventures. And even the other playable characters are nothing like how the Adventures handled alternate characters. If you're talking about the tone of the story, yeah sure. Whatever. But the gameplay couldn't be any more different.

I feel like you're trying to say something else but just don't know how to say it or something.

[Diogenes]

So if it was the Adventure series' swan song can we finally let the Adventure games die and move on?

I don't really have a lot positive to say about SatBK. There's a few decent story moments (but only a few) and some of the music is ok, but it looks like an absolute slog to play, with some bafflingly bad mechanics and systems. In several ways it seems like a step down from SatSR, which wasn't exactly a great game to start with.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

This game has absolutely nothing to do with Adventure. Like, at all. Going into specific reasons:

Crush 40 doing the main theme:

Doesn't mean anything. This also wasn't the last game they did the main theme for, they did Free from Sonic Riders, which released a full year after Black Knight. 

Boost Formula: 

Doesn't mean anything. If anything, this is a worst departure from the Adventure style than Boost gameplay was. Black Knight's gameplay essentially has you entirely on-rails for the entirety of the game, only as opposed to Secret Rings, you can choose when/if you move and it's done through that method.

On top of that, if you want to go into the design of the game, 06 and Unleashed is closer to an unofficial close to the series than Black Knight. 06 retains a broken and worse version of the Adventure formula while Unleashed was designed to be a direct successor to the Adventure series, where the gameplay is changed but the story and world-building is established to be similar right down to the Werehog being an alternative gameplay style similar to Gamma or Big, and there being an hub-world filled with various side-tasks for Sonic to do. 

Character Gameplay Styles: 

This is as superficial in terms of gameplay styles as you can get. From what I remember, Shadow, Knuckles and Blaze all practically play like Sonic only with a few minor additional moves. Adventure's gameplay styles are vastly different from each other and makes each character feel distinct enough. Tails' flight capabilities means stages had to have added portions to it to give him shortcuts. Knuckles' style has him at a slower pace than Sonic but able to glide and has higher access to a stage because of his ability to climb objects. That's why his gameplay is based upon exploration and treasure hunting.

Amy is based around avoiding Zero, solving puzzles, and using her hammer to deal with enemies along the way, as well as high jumping at the cost of speed. Big is based around fishing, and Gamma is based around shooting objects and getting through a stage as quick as possible. Adventure 2 further cuts this down to three distinct styles, speed, exploration and shooting. 06 goes back to Adventure's style of having characters play differently with different gimmicks. That doesn't amount to all characters playing like Sonic but with an added move or two.

Story, Music, etc

That's all nice, but that has no baring on Black Knight being a sawn song for a specific series. If anything, Unleashed falls under the swan song level because it's design was based on Adventure's, it actually has a varied level set based around Sonic literally adventuring around the world, the music and graphics are absolutely top notch, and the level of world-building and story-telling is as good if not better than Black Knight in that game. Right down to the point that it had Sonic stopping to help normal people with everyday tasks, something decently fitting for someone like him.

Just now, ClassicKnuckles said:

The controls feel Adventure-like and the tone does too.

The controls are absolutely NOTHING like Adventure. How does an on-rails game with motion controls to kill enemies play anything like the wide-open areas of Adventure.

That is very clearly more like Secret Rings than anything.

And if you wanna go by tone? Unleashed beats it. Not only does it have light-hearted moments, especially between Sonic and the townspeople but it has Eggman trying to utilize the power of an world-ending monster that was buried deep into some kind of fable to make way for Eggmanland (Which is another reason why Unleashed would be a swan song more than Black Knight - it actually has Eggman successfully achieving what he was attempting to do in Adventure 1 by finally destroying something and creating Eggmanland). Adventure also had Sonic being decently well-known and praised, enough to the point he had a room in a hotel apparently and people knew him, something that Unleashed also attempts to do.

So I in all honesty have no idea how Black Knight could be considered a "swan song" for Adventure in any sense of the word. It's like calling Mario Odyssey the swan song for Mario World. There's barely anything in common.  

 

[ClassicKnuckles]

Nah. It feels like Adventure to me. The linearity is a side effect of the Wii's control. The linearity is equal to Sonic Colors, and it feels like Sonic colors, but with better level design and controls.

 

Edit: I was reply to the post before the one above.

[Muscles Maximum]

 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

So if it was the Adventure series' swan song can we finally let the Adventure games die and move on?

I don't really have a lot positive to say about SatBK. There's a few decent story moments (but only a few) and some of the music is ok, but it looks like an absolute slog to play, with some bafflingly bad mechanics and systems. In several ways it seems like a step down from SatSR, which wasn't exactly a great game to start with.

Do you just want people to never talk about the Adventure games again or something. This guy isn't saying anything about bringing the Adventure games back, or give us SA3 or anything. He's just saying this game is similar to the Adventure games (which it isn't)

[ClassicKnuckles]

Just now, Strong Guy said:

 

Do you just want people to never talk about the Adventure games again or something. This guy isn't saying anything about bringing the Adventure games back, or give us SA3 or anything. He's just saying this game is similar to the Adventure games (which it isn't)

Yes, that is what I'm saying. I personally feel like it's the second closest that we've gotten to Adventure 3, the first one being 06, and the third closest being Unleashed.

[Eurisko]

This is why I love the Sonic Community , its so varied. I HATED this game , I thought it was just absolutely terrible  the story and those controls???? I did finish the game but I've never been back to it and I don't plan to. It did have great music however and that is its only redeeming feature in my book. Though if you like it ,more power to you.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, ClassicKnuckles said:

Nah. It feels like Adventure to me. The linearity is a side effect of the Wii's control. The linearity is equal to Sonic Colors, and it feels like Sonic colors, but with better level design and controls.

Linearity isn't a side-effect of anything. You go into a game with the specific idea to design it around a certain way. That's how game design works. They designed it to be a linear game based around motion controls. 

If linearity was forced by motion controls, we wouldn't have Mario Galaxy. Or Twilight Princess, or even Unleashed which was based around the boost formula. 

[Ashwalking Bat]

3 hours ago, ClassicKnuckles said:

I consider Black Knight to be the final Adventure game, as the other 3D entries have had boosting, and Lost World was a mix, so I still consider this to the last entry. This was the last time Crush 40 did main themes for the game, and they did 3! The music is perfect. The story is amazing, especially the entry, where Sonic's summoned to help Merlina, ,and Sonic is still doing what he does best, and all he has to do is look around, and he know's what's going down, and proceeds to help Merlina. The multiple character playstyles are also fun, and Excalibur Sonic is badass. What's your thoughts on the game? (by the way, Knight of the Wind and Fight the Knight are amazing and sum up the game well.)

Hmmmm. It's a little hard to see what exactly you are trying to get across. There is only one regard to an 'adventure' of sorts that this game would have, is namely is that it's a storybook game. But outside that, it's more a on rails linear game with pretty abysmal controls, honestly. Much like Secret Rings. That's mostly due to the Wii hardware with the controls being pretty finicky. Though Sonic Forces is the current worst offender of on rails gameplay. Either way, Crush 40 doesn't make a Sonic game an adventure, the content the makes the story and game does. All Crush 40 does is add music to make the soundtrack sound good, like any band or music composer does. And I will not deny the music by them is pretty damn great in Black Knight. The Massive Power Mix for With Me, being my fave.

But getting back on this. The story itself being good is subjective. It's a Sonic the Hedgehog take on the King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table story. If you want a more faithful but funny take of that. I point you Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Though ultimately SatBK is a mess of a Wii game and tedious as all hell to even get through. The fact I got though it and beat it was a miracle on it's own. I found that I didn't want to pick it back up, after I was done with the main story.

Though it's great you find joy in the game still. But I will have to sadly say that not everyone shares your enthusiasm with the game. And as others have said, minds do change overtime as they let what they played stu in their heads a bit. Taking all the good with the bad. Or in this case, taking all the bad with what little good that exists.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Ashwalking Bat

[knuckles20]

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

So if it was the Adventure series' swan song can we finally let the Adventure games die and move on?

I don't really have a lot positive to say about SatBK. There's a few decent story moments (but only a few) and some of the music is ok, but it looks like an absolute slog to play, with some bafflingly bad mechanics and systems. In several ways it seems like a step down from SatSR, which wasn't exactly a great game to start with.

No. If we keep getting classic pandering, I want a game 100% dedicated to the Adventure era that doesn’t get compromised by classic bait Sonic.

 

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, SaberX said:

 

I can't say I find good story moments at all...but the feeling I get from this game is that it makes Sonic like a divine being or something. Not to mention that Sonic and his free way of life has nothing really wise to share for the knights. It would have more sense if an elder and wiser figure like I dunno...the sword, gave this knights life lessons than Sonic. I felt like I was watching that Sonic X episode of the moon where everyone was stupid except Sonic and his incredibly amount of knowledge.

 

The wisdom of Sonic's knowledge in Black Knight wasn't overblown or exaggerated though. Its not a stretch like that moment in Sonic X where everyone was suddenly blind to basic science and math aside from Sonic. Tails was right there for crying out loud.

Your bashing the story like Sonic was going around teaching life lessons that were beyond his years and farther than his own understanding, when in actuality its little more than the simplicity of his worldview that proved to be what the people around him needed most. Sonic did little more wisdom sharing beyond showing them the value of doing what was right. To be the hero that made the hard choice to deal with the situation in front of them, and not to be so over-reliant on what the world around them wanted them to see. To filter out the thoughts and beliefs of others and act in the interest of the greater good. That's not Sonic being a divine being, that's Sonic being the same hedgehog we've all known for the last 25 years, being thrust into a caste system that had no experience with anything outside of loyalty.

Shoot, you could play they theme "It doesn't matter" over each cut scene and have a perfect understanding of Sonic's rationale and mindset. (WHOO! I Re-Railed the Topic!)

 

Its also a bitter pill to swallow to see you say there were no good story moments. If your not one of those kind of fans who happens to like watching Sonic take a beating (on some level I feel like we all are) then you can overlook the brutality that ushered in Excalibur's rise, but then there is still the scene were Sonic sacrifices his trial to help a stranger, His eagerness to "run" away from Lancelot and even a little ship tease with Blaze. And that's before you get into the SatSR synergy with the Merlina backstab, Sonic's general disdain for his trusty sword and shoot, there is even a post credit conversation with Amy that is just delightful.

I just kind of feel like if you can't find one thing in the story worth its weight - your just not giving it a chance.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

It's just one of those odd side Sonic titles like Sonic 3D blast/CD or something like that. It's fine for what it is but comparing it to the adventure games isn't a  wise thing to do or putting it on the same list as them.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, SaberX said:

I never said it was exaggerated though. Just straight lame(like that Sonic X episode), when you take account that using Sonic life lessons is basically like migrate someone from our present time to the old medieval times.  Even you or me could basically do the same thing that he did.

Psh, I don't think you are me are going to walk into a medieval castle and convince a gathering of the greatest Knights who ever existed to throw away the only core values they were taught form birth and (the same values they were currently fighting and willing to die for mind you) cave to the ideology of a stranger.

 

If you think that's something any old person can do then I fully invite you to head over to the middle east and step in to mediate that conflict. I expect peace come morning.

 

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Worst offender is that you took only the part of the dialogue between the knights to use as counter-argument against the "Sonic divine being". I said the game as a whole: Sonic being called, Sword bashing like a master, Sonic dialogues, Super "Golden Armor", Sonic being the so called King at the end(all hail Sonic), etc.

 

Even with all that added to the consideration, he hardly jumps right into divine status. While he does pick up the sword quickly, Caliburn spends much of the first half of the game calling him a hack to his face. He's too dense to see through Merlina's ruse and isn't able to see her as a threat until its too late, quite literally handing her the power she needed for her own conquest. For all the glory that goes into that golden armor, it couldn't be achieved without the input from the other Knights.

 

Sonic is no more divine here than he is in any other story.  In fact, he's less so since its his own mistakes and decisions that lead to the rise of the big bad. There are so many outliners in the franchise that Black Knight hardly has to watch its step here.

 

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But anywho, can't say I didn't give story a chance. I gave, so thats why I thinks its pretty bad. Oh and I don't mean to be rude or offend, but I don't give a heck about this so called "ship tease".

It's not that I can't comprehend why someone would think its bad -- I disagree, but opinions.

 

You said there was not a single thing good about it. Not, one thing. That I find hard to comprehend. If there is a moment in this franchise you enjoy somewhere, there is probably something comparable in Black Knight somewhere. Between Merlina's relate-able plight, Sonic and Caliburn's banter, Sonic gradually earning his title, The Lady of the Lakes trials and misdirection... I mean, to just say nothing is good is just throwing the baby out with the bath water. Talking in absolutes like that gets you in trouble.

[Diogenes]

7 hours ago, SaberX said:

I can't say I find good story moments at all...but the feeling I get from this game is that it makes Sonic like a divine being or something. Not to mention that Sonic and his free way of life has nothing really wise to share for the knights. It would have more sense if an elder and wiser figure like I dunno...the sword, gave this knights life lessons than Sonic. I felt like I was watching that Sonic X episode of the moon where everyone was stupid except Sonic and his incredibly amount of knowledge.

It does have a bit of a problem with making Sonic a little too perfect, yeah, but the one thing I can give it some credit for is that it was willing to have Sonic be the "bad guy" from a certain perspective, if only to a limited extent. He's an outsider to all this knight stuff so he's able to cut through its bullshit, and he's not worried about how that's going to reflect on him, because he's doing what he genuinely thinks is right. That, taken on its own, is a pretty good take on Sonic's character.

Of course there isn't actually any real nuance to this, "King Arthur" is so blatantly a bad guy that you'd never think to question if Sonic is in the right, and of course in the end he is, and he's practically a saint otherwise. But those couple of lines about being a king slayer and not always being the hero are pretty good at least.

[Osmium]

14 hours ago, SaberX said:

I can't say I find good story moments at all...but the feeling I get from this game is that it makes Sonic like a divine being or something. Not to mention that Sonic and his free way of life has nothing really wise to share for the knights. It would have more sense if an elder and wiser figure like I dunno...the sword, gave this knights life lessons than Sonic. I felt like I was watching that Sonic X episode of the moon where everyone was stupid except Sonic and his incredibly amount of knowledge.

Finally, someone who agrees with me. I've always detested how "wise" the game tries to sell Sonic off as. He really almost does come off as a prophet. He comes, gives some very basic plain philosophy (about how he's not a part of the system mannn) then fucking defeats them in battle despite this being his first time even using a sword. 

I really just don't like how explicit all of it is talked about. I know it's a game for kids but does Sonic actually have to say "I have no master except the wind blows free" and "I don't mind being the bad guy" (most likely a paraphrase)? It's so damn corny and I just don't imagine Sonic saying stuff like that in the slightest. Oh I know he thinks this way full stop but if you want to show it can't you be a little more clever about it then have him explicitly spout basic philosophy about obedience and moral obligations? It's a strange position for Sonic to take really.