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Sonic Fan J

Amy's Sidekicks, the Success of Tails, and the Ever Growing Team Rose

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3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Only if said character roles are acknowledged in universe. Sonic doesn't exactly tell Tails what to do when they fight together, Sonic's big brother role to Tails is separate from their hero and sidekick dynamic.

Amy would only have authority over Cream not just because she's 6, but because Cream's too passive...

That's a fair take, sorry. 

9 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

It would be fun to see the roles reversed at least once though to see how Team Dark's mission look from the POV of the actual leader. Just like with Knuckles though, this is another situation where a character's popularity dictates what goes on instead of any type of in world logic as the starting point of a story.

It would be fun, of Rouge or even omega got a thing that was their thing, but for multiple reasons shadow's kinda always gonna be the it guy. I think Rouge doing things by herself gives her a chance to shine away from shadow's scene eating powers. As far as Actual leader POV, rouge said she would follow shadow anywhere,  so it seems shadow's the actual leader when it comes to shadow stuff? Maybe rouge gets to be leader when it comes to rouge stuff... but we never get to see rouge stuff. We always see shadow stuff and that's the problem. 

As for knuckles...Well yeah. That's also the issue with team dark too. I wish they could come up with a story reason for knuckles to be traveling the world to have him around and junk. And not just the ME broke again because knuckles is shit at his job

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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

As for knuckles...Well yeah. That's also the issue with team dark too. I wish they could come up with a story reason for knuckles to be traveling the world to have him around and junk. And not just the ME broke again because knuckles is shit at his job

That's one of the things that I like about the Phantom Ruby; it's something that the Master Emerald would surely react to and just like the island in Chaotix (Japanese manual story here) Knuckles heads out to investigate and ends up partnering up with Sonic and Tails since they are also in pursuit of Eggman who has it. It really is a shame that in Forces they didn't play off of this angle which would have justified putting Knuckles in charge of the Resistance just because he would consider it his personal mission and without Sonic around there would be no way anyone would be able to try anything without him jumping down their throats.

 

Getting back on topic and away from Knuckles... kind of, does anyone who played Forces feels like the Avatar almost could have been in a sidekick role to Knuckles and Amy? The two of them are pretty much the ones leading the Resistance and should have been with the Avatar in the field. Realistically, since they were going for an OC fantasy in the first place every level should have paired the Avatar up with a member of the cast with us trying to keep up while helping them meet their objective. It would have tied into the narrative better and made better use of the cast.

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On 4/19/2018 at 12:56 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

I must agree with E.C. above me. Quite a big topic, it just... why Amy needs a sidekick? Does Silver need one? Or Knuckles? Shadow?

Shadow has Rouge? Ok, does Rouge need a sidekick? Or Omega, (just to cover all bases)?

I really do like the idea of Silver and Knuckles having someone else they can chat with every once in a while. But in terms of action sequences, no, they're .

Similar case with Shadow, who instead voluntarily helps out Rouge and does shit for GUN out of [whatever he would name a] friendship and developed convenience, respectively.

Meanwhile, Omega clearly wouldn't give a shit about the idea unless there's a rare something who could stroke his ego without being considered insulting or his equivalent of thunder stealing. 

On 4/19/2018 at 12:56 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

Besides, Tekno and Sticks weren't her sidekicks. They were her friends. Amy had no authority or anything over them.

 

On 4/19/2018 at 1:49 PM, StaticMania said:

Only if said character roles are acknowledged in universe. Sonic doesn't exactly tell Tails what to do when they fight together, Sonic's big brother role to Tails is separate from their hero and sidekick dynamic.

Amy would only have authority over Cream not just because she's 6, but because Cream's too passive...

That's actually very good observation and/or way of going about it.

On 4/19/2018 at 2:17 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

 It really is a shame that in Forces they didn't play off of this angle which would have justified putting Knuckles in charge of the Resistance just because he would consider it his personal mission and without Sonic around there would be no way anyone would be able to try anything without him jumping down their throats.

 

Yeah, it is. Him being the leader is clearly a publicity thing out of universe, but there were still avenues for precedent and story elements that could've gone into it.

On 4/19/2018 at 2:17 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Getting back on topic and away from Knuckles... kind of, does anyone who played Forces feels like the Avatar almost could have been in a sidekick role to Knuckles and Amy? The two of them are pretty much the ones leading the Resistance and should have been with the Avatar in the field. 

Yeah, that's kinda more or less how the Avatar felt they were. I didn't really design her with that or much of anything story relevant in mind,.

Well, with Knuckles, anyway. 

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Does Amy need a sidekick?

Personally, I would prefer much more for Amy to have a friend that can actually act as a foil for her, as well as viceversa.

Currently, as per Sonic Team's designation, Cream is supposed to be Amy's best friend/sidekick, but frankly I really don't see their dynamic having that much substsnce, and it definitively doesn't help that Cream is a pretty flat character whose only distiguishable trait is her (excessive) politeness.

Not only does Cream the Rabbit hardly offers anything with which to foil Amy's more intense (and more complex) personality, but I would go as far as saying that their friendship didn't deliver the results that Sonic Team would had desired, but rather quite the opposite: Cream the Rabbit's meek and super-polite mannerism makes Amy come off as rather selfish and demanding, while Amy's quirky character makes one realize just how dull Cream really is. This is a rather harsh contrast to say, Sonic and Tails since on that particular friendship, both characters emphasize the positive aspects of each other as well as complement them, while with Amy and Cream, it is the latter character that falls short and doesn't deliver due to how Cream overlaps over a lot of the things Amy already orovides with to the franchise, and this is much more evident with how a lot of the 2000's games where Cream was relevant (Rush, Battle, Free Riders, etc) happened to be the ones in which Amy got flanderized to be nothing but obsessed over Sonic, while the endearing traits she displayed n games like Sonic Adventure were now transfered to Cream, much to the dismay of Amy fans who saw a drop in her characterization to make room to this newbie character. (No one can tell me with a straight face that Cream didn't leech on Amy's character when you see the rabbit giving one of Eggman's robots a moral speech in Sonic Battle that sounded an awful lot like something that Amy would had said).

Sonic Boom introduced Sticks the Badger and had her being sold to the audience as Amy's BFF, and while I admit there were a few moments of bonding, like the episode where the entire village turns on Sticks for the wrong things that one of her ancestor did, for the most time, I feel like Sticks was more of a part of the gang than Amy's best friend.

The only character I can see to be up to the task would be, IMO, Blaze the cat because of how she is, first and foremost, her very own individual. Second, because her entire character contrasts Amy in pretty much every aspect (one is serious, has no patience for non-sense, has a realistic view of things, is reserved about her emotions and feelings while the other is bubbly, energetic, a bit clumsy, never runs out of optimism nor holds back on her emotions) but still manage to have a very important thing that Blaze shares with Amy: they both care deeply for others, but display it differently.

I imagine that at first, it would be Amy who kind of acts like the sidekick to Blaze, because of how the princess from Sol is much more skilled and experience, and display admiration for her while Blaze at first would me annoyed by Amy's energetic personality and silliness, but it would only be a temporal thing since as time goes by, Amy would learn from Blaze and eventually realize her potential as a heroine, while Blaze would slowly (but steadily) warm up to Amy and open up to her, forming a very close bond of friendship between them in which both act as equals instead of one being subservient to the other. I think that Blaze could very well keep Amy's impulsive nature in check, while at the same time, Amy's empathy for others would keep Blaze from being to drastic or radical when dealing with bad guys.


Regarding Team Rose, I'll mirror VEDJ-F's opinion of hot this was pretty much a thing from the Heroes era that, for the most part, was kept around mainly by the old Archie comics. 

Frankly, I'd rather see Amy being more integrated along Sonic and Tails in order to have her be more prominent and relevant again, but without compromising her freedom and ability to join with other characters whenever Amy feels that she could lend them a helping hand, as I feel that limiting characters to only interact within very specific groups (for example Rouge often appearing either with Shadow and E-123 Omega, or with Knuckles) can not just limit their range of interactions and the facets they could potentially display by playing their personalities with that of other characters, but even backfire like it was the case of Tails in recent games where his existance and reliance was so heavily conditioned around Sonic and only him (or a version from an alternate dimension) to the point of dangerously leaning towards turning him into another Chris Thorndyke.

Likewise I fee that even if Sonic IS the protagonist of the franchise, that should not be an excuse to treat other characters dynamics and relations that do not feature him as unimportant or not worthy of having the spotlight to develop them, something necessary if a potential dynamic between Amy and a character like Blaze  (or any two other characters of your choice) is to ever take place.

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Cream is a pretty nice sidekick for Amy in Sonic 2 Pink Edition. 

Amy's biggest problem is mobility and Cream can really help with that cause she can fly and handles really well. Plus I love bunnies so I think it would look really cute.

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7 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Likewise I fee that even if Sonic IS the protagonist of the franchise, that should not be an excuse to treat other characters dynamics and relations that do not feature him as unimportant or not worthy of having the spotlight to develop them, something necessary if a potential dynamic between Amy and a character like Blaze  (or any two other characters of your choice) is to ever take place.

This right here covers the biggest reason that SEGA needs to gamble and make games that focus on the other characters. Even arcade style mobile games would be something more than we have right now and avoids the only solution that I see being to involving characters in the plots based solely on their investment in Sonic or Eggman. It's why even as Tails has become not even scraps of what he once was he still stays relevant simply because his entire character simply revolves around worshiping Sonic these days. I'd hate to see that happen to any more characters but if SEGA won't make games like the Adventure games anymore where they will have separate stories for all of the characters involved in a plot then I could very easily see it happening. At the point wondering why SEGA has not achieved the success they had with giving Sonic a sidekick with Amy will be the least of our problems.

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14 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

This right here covers the biggest reason that SEGA needs to gamble and make games that focus on the other characters.

 

Sadly, at this point when even the main games in the series are struggling to make decent sales, the days when Sega could seriously have considered making spin-off games featuring characters other than Sonic as the main star are now long gone. There was a time when Sonic was actually popular enough for this sort of experimentation to be possible, hench the likes of Shadow the Hedgehog (a game that might have been ridiculed from day one but, hey, at least it got made). I can actually quite easily imagine a scenario where a spin-off featuring Tails or Knuckles or indeed even Amy could have come out in like 2005 or something. But that train has passed.

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26 minutes ago, batson said:

 

Sadly, at this point when even the main games in the series are struggling to make decent sales, the days when Sega could seriously have considered making spin-off games featuring characters other than Sonic as the main star are now long gone. There was a time when Sonic was actually popular enough for this sort of experimentation to be possible, hench the likes of Shadow the Hedgehog (a game that might have been ridiculed from day one but, hey, at least it got made). I can actually quite easily imagine a scenario where a spin-off featuring Tails or Knuckles or indeed even Amy could have come out in like 2005 or something. But that train has passed.

And that's sad.

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

And that's sad.

Very much so.

As someone who is old enough to remember when Sonic was the most popular video game franchise in the world (when taking into account spin-off's, merchandise, ect), it's really sad to see how the series has fallen so low.

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To be fair, I think it's rare at any time in history that they could capitalise on other characters for spinoffs, to the point where Shadow the Hedgehog basically was the one time they could catch lightning in a bottle and did so because he was massively popular. Tails Adventure is off-kilt I'm not sure if it was capitalising on Tails' popularity or just using Tails because Sonic wouldn't fit, Tails Skypatrol seems to have been a different game to begin with given recent conversations I've seen but then retrofitted with Tails, Tails and the Music Maker is an edutainment game using Tails because he's a young kid, and Knuckles Chaotix wasn't supposed to be a Knuckles vehicle when it was conceived. Only Shadow the game seems to have been straight up a vehicle for the character, and he's probably the only one who could have got that, even in 2005. 

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I don't think you need a spinoff game focusing on other characters (nor is it a realistical option) to have interactions that don't spin around Sonic. Likewise, neither is there a necessity to rely on the Adventure model to have that kind of stuff since you could simply have separate stories like in the case of the first Sonic Rush.

Now, IMO videogames are somewhat limited in how much storytelling you can fit into them because of their interactive nature, more when it is about platformers/action platformer titles.

I think that the current IDW comic would be the ideal place to try having that if in the future it were to have a sister publication much like how the Archie comic had the Universe book to give the other members of the cast room to do their thing.

For better or for worse, Sonic at the end of the day IS the main attraction and selling point of the franchise, and while personally I find other characters of the support cast to be much more endearing and interesting, I think that if the available cards are played properly, there can be some character interaction given focus without involving Sonic himself.

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10 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

For better or for worse, Sonic at the end of the day IS the main attraction and selling point of the franchise...

People should probably get over this little detail...

Stuff like this is one of many reasons why spin-offs about side characters end up failing...

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3 hours ago, batson said:

 

Sadly, at this point when even the main games in the series are struggling to make decent sales, the days when Sega could seriously have considered making spin-off games featuring characters other than Sonic as the main star are now long gone. There was a time when Sonic was actually popular enough for this sort of experimentation to be possible, hench the likes of Shadow the Hedgehog (a game that might have been ridiculed from day one but, hey, at least it got made). I can actually quite easily imagine a scenario where a spin-off featuring Tails or Knuckles or indeed even Amy could have come out in like 2005 or something. But that train has passed.

I dont think that train has passed

However,I do think the people in charge aren't competent to put out consistently good products to make those prospects more enticing.

Don't know if thats worse 

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

People should probably get over this little detail...

Stuff like this is one of many reasons why spin-offs about side characters end up failing...

Just because Sonic is the main attraction doesn't mean it's gonna stop people want the other characters actually doing something besides kissing his ass.

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I believe that a game about Amy can work she doesn't need to have her name in the title just have a story about her bonding with Sonic closing the gap between there hearts more. With that in mind Sticks was Amy's best sidekick as she won't be a third wheel sense she hardly makes fun of her when she makes her advancements at Sonic about love ( But don't make her act like Boom Amy).

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Amy was the straight woman to Sticks' raving conspiracy theorist survivalist (and to the leading males besides Tails). Their dynamic wouldn't translate well to the games since Amy is largely characterized as not especially level-headed compared to anybody short of Knuckles.

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I think part of the reason Cream never really settled very comfortably into the role of Amy's sidekick despite that allegedly being the reason for her creation is because there was no [onscreen?] inciting point for their relationship.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the decision to formally introduce her in Sonic Advance 2(even if I never played it), as it represents her fun/versatility compared to most new characters and gave her something most characters lack--a parent and/or family member. And though Amy being locked behind the closest story point of being held captive by the rebuilt ZERO, that has little effect on the bigger issue of the Advance games stories being pretty light anyway.

But the point is that Amy and Cream never really. Even in Heroes, their offscreen meeting and connection is mainly based on Amy's general compassion rather than any developing connection between the two.  And also because Team Rose's writing/storytelling is pretty juvenile/fundamental/slow. And while Shadow's game does indeed nicely tap into that versatility thing by managing to sneak her in as one half of Amy's personal objective, it would unfortunately be one of the later/last displays of any [positive/meaningful] connection between the two.

It probably doesn't help that it was another factor of Amy's streak of development ending with Blaze's introduction, which actually did have Cream meaningfully interact and develop a relationship with the firecat.

2 minutes ago, Almar said:

Amy was the straight woman to Sticks' raving conspiracy theorist survivalist (and to the leading males besides Tails). Their dynamic wouldn't translate well to the games since Amy is largely characterized as not especially level-headed compared to anybody short of Knuckles.

Essentially.

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I don't think it is so much that they never shown how Amy and Cream became friends (heck, even with Sonic and Tails all they've done in SA1 and X is show how they meet but not how they bonded) but rather that Cream essentially had not much to offer to foil Amy due to how she is, to put it short, a watered down version of Amy with none of her flaws (or any noticeable flaw for that matter).

I'm not the kind of audience that buys the friendship between characters just because there are hugs or brofists, since IMO what makes or break them is the chemistry, especially if the two characters have something to foil and complement each other. 

Cream didn't deliver due to her being pretty redundant, and since for a time she basically compited with Amy (like how Cream became friends with Blaze solely for being the newer character, despite Amy actually having something that Blaze could had latched to: Amy was very, very open with her emotions and how she expressed them, something the cat princess was not able to) this resulted in both characters ending up underdeveloped, not to mention the disservice of trying to replace Amy or at least take away her endearing traits to make room for a new character (if the idea of Eggman - my 2nd favorite character - being supplanted by cardboard kaiju rejects annoys me, then I'm not going to be exactly thrilled either when a similar thing happens to Amy) as well as the disservice of Cream not having been something more unique that could stand on it's own merit rather than leeching what another character already offered. There is a good reason why there can't be two Han Solo's on the Millenium Falcon.

Oh well, at least there's the olympic games to satisfy my needs of what a friendship between Amy and Blaze would be like, which if that cute victory animation is anything to go by, would me a lot like that of Nono and Lal'C from Diebuster.

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@Skull Leader the thing about Tails is his relationship with Sonic really stems more from Sonic putting up with him and his ability to keep. If you check the backstory in Sonic 2 from the Japanese manual when Sonic first gets to Westside Island he notices Tails following him around but blows him off figuring the fox can do what he wants. Even when the adventure actually starts Sonic runs off on his own and Tails follows of his own volition without any invitation or input from Sonic. As a whole, without that information it only seems like their relationship never built up in any form simply because we're supposed to believe that their relationship developed over the course of Sonic 2. To me any failure to establish Sonic and Tails relationship is limited to the era when the story was told and SEGA of America was still driving there own agenda instead of having to bend over backwards to SEGA of Japan.

 

Onto Amy and sidekicks, I've noticed the Sonic is the main character argument crop up so I would like to take a different approach to that argument. Yes Sonic is the main character but we don't always have to follow the story from his perspective. Since Amy is the focus of this thread though lets take a look at if we had a good narrative in a Sonic game and looked at the unfolding events from Amy's point of view. There is really no better perspective to show off the positive effects of Sonic's actions or the shocking aspects of his failures than from Amy's perspective. Additionally, since Amy is not known for keeping up with Sonic at all times it would justify the use of ancillary characters more so both for her to have someone to interact with when Sonic is off screen and also as a way to highlight her faith in Sonic. While not a perfect solution n some instances it would create a scenario where Amy could be given a sidekick if necessary or perhaps taking the time to flesh out her relationship with Cream, her supposed sidekick.

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Since Sonic Unleashed Cream has been on the backburner while Amy was both cemented as one of the pillars of the franchise herowise and be presented as more of a source for support to Sonic as one of his closest confidants (which frankly she be should over Knuckles) with her crush on him still there but toned down from the Dark Age of Heroes through 06. So, we have a rare moment of something getting better?

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On 4/22/2018 at 7:54 PM, knuckles20 said:

Just because Sonic is the main attraction doesn't mean it's gonna stop people want the other characters actually doing something besides kissing his ass.

Does Amy have to potential to draw non sonic casuals like Sonic , Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze and Tails to the series outside of the fandom in terms of appeal? She's cited as one of the girliest characters with a strong image to girls, not everyone.

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22 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Does Amy have to potential to draw non sonic casuals like Sonic , Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze and Tails to the series outside of the fandom in terms of appeal? She's cited as one of the girliest characters with a strong image to girls, not everyone.

Strangely that's exactly why I like Amy. She is a girly and a tomboy to an extent and in a world where everyone is always telling people what type of people they should be instead of being themselves I find it extremely refreshing. The sheer amount of times I've seen girls insulted for being either too girly or tomboyish is rather overwhelming to me so seeing a character who embraces those strangely frowned upon characteristics is very enjoyable for me. If you were to ask me, overly serious characters like Shadow and blaze who have no sillier, more human, sides to them are painfully boring. It's part of what makes a lot of so called great western stories boring to me is because everyone is emotionless one-dimensional serious caricatures of what a real person is like. Amy is the very opposite of that and lives her life to the fullest letting no one tell her what she can or can't be. Her sense of freedom and willingness to run away from everything else just like Sonic is what makes me enjoy seeing stories in this franchise and one of the reasons I am severely unfond of her portrayal in Boom! where she is stripped of her primary personality traits to appease the masses. It strips her of all sense of freedom to be who she is and undermines the freedom Sonic himself represents.

 

As for whether she can draw in a larger audience, she probably can't for the very reasons I describe above. She represents things society frowns upon these days, but comically Sonic himself was introduced to me back in 1991 as a teenage rebel with an attitude which was heavily frowned upon in my experience. I say let her have the freedom to be a girly-girl tomboy because hat's who she is and she should not have to conform to what everyone would prefer is an idea role model. For crying out loud, she's not a role model for the type of person you should be. If she's a role model of any kind it would be in the vein of Sonic himself, someone who chases after their dreams and lets no obstacle stop them, overcoming any challenge life throws their way and never giving up. If that doesn't sell a character anymore than it speaks volumes about the values of society on a whole these days.

 

Apologies if this post comes off harshly but few things boil my blood then when I see being any type of a non-harmful person as a bad thing and I have never understood what makes girly-girls and tomboys bad.

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Just now, Dash Speed said:

Does Amy have to potential to draw non sonic casuals like Sonic , Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze and Tails to the series outside of the fandom in terms of appeal? She's cited as one of the girliest characters with a strong image to girls, not everyone.

Amy has potential to do a lot of things but being girly or having a image to girls doesn't stop people from liking Amy she has a image to both boys & girls like how shadow can have girl fans even though he's manly.

 

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4 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Does Amy have to potential to draw non sonic casuals like Sonic , Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze and Tails to the series outside of the fandom in terms of appeal? She's cited as one of the girliest characters with a strong image to girls, not everyone.

I do think Amy has that potential as much as the other characters. The only thing IMO that Amy needs is, you know, to be given an actual chance.

I think it should say something about Amy's appeal when you take into account her extremely humble origin when compared to the likes of Tails, Knuckles or Shadow, and how 20+ years she's still around, and as one of the more popular characters in fact despite Sega/ST hardly ever giving her the same push that they do for the other characters, all of whom have at least a game as co-protagonists during their debuts.

Likewise I don't think that Amy being girly should be an impediment to coming to like and enjoy the character. I believe that I am more than secure on my own manliness to worry or care of other people's opinion of the stuff that I like and enjoy, since I'm not the kind of guy that compromises to satisfy others.

Plus, I don't think that Amy being a girl plays that much of a factor in her being my favorite as what her character is like, which personally I find to be much more enjoyable and fun than Sonic, and definitively much more relatable and sympathetic than Tails, the supposedly underdog character.

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