Sonic as part of a larger trend

[batson]

One aspect of the Sonic franchise and it's place in pop culture history  that I think tends to be overlooked is just how similar the Sonic franchise is to other late 80's/ early 90's series about humanoid animals fighting against environmental destruction. I suppose a lot of younger fans might be entirely unaware of this, but the fact is that, narratively speaking, Sonic was absolutely NOT a novel concept back in 1991. In fact it was part of what could probably be called an entire sub-genre of childrens entertainment at the time.

For instance, picture this scenario: a superpowered blue humanoid animal living with his equally superpowered band of friends in unspoiled nature is forced to take up the fight against humans that pollute and destroy his home. What am I describing? Not Sonic, bu rather the plot to the 1990 cartoon The Little Flying Bears:

You might also picture this scenario: On a far away planert that was once lush and green, a group of humanoid animals fight to retake their one beautiful home from an overweight human scientist that has used robots to counquer and pollute their land. No, I'm not describing SatAM. I'm describing the 1987 cartoon The Bluffers:

What are your thoughts on this? To what extent were you aware that Sonic's basic plot was pretty much part of a large trend at the time of the series creation? Have you any familiarity or memories of any of these similar franchises?

[Tarnish]

I have never heard anyone claim Sonic was narratively speaking a novel concept. I don't think that's what made it stand out when the first game was released. For me personally, it stood out for its gameplay, not for its narrative. The narrative was neat I guess, but definitely not the selling feature or main appeal.

So yeah, it was just another cute(ish) animal fighting off foes story, but it stood out in other aspects.

[Ashwalking Bat]

Honestly, I agree with Tarnish here. The games are where most of Sonic's appeal came from. Though in the cartooning front, I could see what you kinda mean. However, I think the whole environmentally friendly trend was something that a lot of cartoons at the time used to teach kids about taking care of mother earth. I highly dought there was any other prerogative there.

Besides it's either they continued making this... heap of drawings-

 

Or they go more in the vain of a more dark toned but environmental supportive plot for Sonic, as was the trend kids cartoons were doing-

 

But in doing the latter, they also did establish a lot in the lore of the world that Sonic and Friends lived in. Now I maybe not as in tune with the comics and if they came first before the show, or visa versa. But I do know that it was more about what can get ratings and the most out of a child's attention. And for better or worse, the SatAM approach was more successful in the long run. And it due to this show too that it spawned a bigger following of Sonic fans and the lesser talked about amount Furries, that cropped up more.

[Sonic Fan J]

The most humorous thing about this topic is that it doesn't take into account the story as it was presented in Japan. If the translations I read of the original Japanese Manual from the first game are correct, then Eggman wasn't even aiming for any environmental devastation for world conquest type angle. In fact, in the translations I've read (mostly on Sonic Retro) in the original game Eggman had declared Sonic his lifelong enemy without Sonic ever really knowing why but still  made a mess of Eggman's plans anyway. By the time their conflict arrives at South Island and we play the first game Eggman expected Sonic to arrive ,which was no surprise since the locals somehow contacted him and asked for his help, and had placed Sonic's animal friends in his robots not so much for power, but as a means of forcing Sonic to hold back so that he might have a chance to best him.

 

So, in light of the Japanese side of things it would seem the narrative of nature vs. man was completely absent beyond simple coincidence. The emphasis brought to it was probably a western SEGA decision due to the success with those themes at the time. Comically even as a six year old I found those themes aggravating and didn't actually notice them in Sonic.

[Chili Dawg]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

The most humorous thing about this topic is that it doesn't take into account the story as it was presented in Japan. If the translations I read of the original Japanese Manual from the first game are correct, then Eggman wasn't even aiming for any environmental devastation for world conquest type angle. In fact, in the translations I've read (mostly on Sonic Retro) in the original game Eggman had declared Sonic his lifelong enemy without Sonic ever really knowing why but still  made a mess of Eggman's plans anyway. By the time their conflict arrives at South Island and we play the first game Eggman expected Sonic to arrive ,which was no surprise since the locals somehow contacted him and asked for his help, and had placed Sonic's animal friends in his robots not so much for power, but as a means of forcing Sonic to hold back so that he might have a chance to best him.

 

So, in light of the Japanese side of things it would seem the narrative of nature vs. man was completely absent beyond simple coincidence. The emphasis brought to it was probably a western SEGA decision due to the success with those themes at the time. Comically even as a six year old I found those themes aggravating and didn't actually notice them in Sonic.

Western marketing perhaps more blatantly spelled out that Eggman was a Republican guy who doesn't like the environment, but such things were present in Sonic from the beginning. I mean the very concept of animals being turned into robots is a pretty simple nature vs mechanization thing, and one need only look to Sonic CD's bad futures to see Sonic Team warning against unchecked industrialization and pollution.

And just ask the man himself:

“Dr Robotnik is a slightly radical representation of all humanity and the impact humanity is having on nature. In 1991, it was a very sensitive subject to talk about the environment and while I had my viewpoint, I did not speak of it. With Sonic, I was given an opportunity to express my views in a different way and did so, showing Robotnik using pollution and creating machinery which desecrates the environment and it is down to Sonic to change his ways.”

-Yuji Naka, 2010

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2010/10/naka-sonic-created-with-environmental-themes/

 

[Osmium]

The conflict between Sonic and Eggman I always interpreted as an ideological one about freedom and the chaos associated with it vs total suppression and authority before anything else. I always thought the environmental aspects were just chosen as a nice medium to show them off, as it's a good visual medium while being easy to understand for kids. Since Eggman gets no use out of just animals and the animals have minds to dissent; therefore putting them into robot shells turns them into nice little drones for his plans. Sonic wants everyone to be as free as him so this obviously doesn't fly. 

Has anyone noticed how AoStH fits the feelings of the games quite closer by not warping this while SatAM does? 

[Chili Dawg]

6 hours ago, A crocodile said:

The conflict between Sonic and Eggman I always interpreted as an ideological one about freedom and the chaos associated with it vs total suppression and authority before anything else. I always thought the environmental aspects were just chosen as a nice medium to show them off, as it's a good visual medium while being easy to understand for kids. Since Eggman gets no use out of just animals and the animals have minds to dissent; therefore putting them into robot shells turns them into nice little drones for his plans. Sonic wants everyone to be as free as him so this obviously doesn't fly. 

Has anyone noticed how AoStH fits the feelings of the games quite closer by not warping this while SatAM does? 

I think that Sonic can speak to multiple ideals is one of the reasons that despite jumping on a lot of trends, Sonic was massively successful enough to keep going forever and ever regardless of quality  and not just a flash in the pan 90s thing. One need only look at the character to see he's got a kind of secret sauce of various elements at play here. The character is broad enough to be reinterpreted and reinvented again and again across medium, but as long as he has that spiky  hair and confident smirk he has that inherent coolness factor that will always attract new 6-11 year olds, and his timeless welcoming Mickeyesque elements are inviting to the very young and the older set who may not be as wowed by 'tude but are charmed by the inherent likability. Whether it's freedom vs opression, man vs nature, order vs chaos, blue vs red, America vs commies,  Sonic as a character just kinda works, and I think that ultimately grants him more staying power than some googly eyed squirrels who are gonna talk about recycling (which is a worthy cause). 

On AoStH vs Satam, I've always felt SatAM was Sonic the Hedgehog by people who never really cared for Sonic the Hedgehog. Not to say AoStH is a show written by a bunch of Sonic fans, but I feel like the folks making that one sorta saw Sonic 2 and were given the characters and decided to have some fun with 'em. SatAM to me feels like a show that desperately wishes Sonic wasn't even part of it. 

[batson]

19 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

So, in light of the Japanese side of things it would seem the narrative of nature vs. man was completely absent beyond simple coincidence. The emphasis brought to it was probably a western SEGA decision due to the success with those themes at the time. Comically even as a six year old I found those themes aggravating and didn't actually notice them in Sonic.

As has already been stated by Chilli Dawg, the man vs nature theme was very much intentional from the japanese side of things from the very beggining. Of course the interesting thing is that this theme doesn't appear to have really been a major thing in japanese pop culture at the time, meaning that the environmentalist theme of Sonic was either created with the intention of appealing to the west, or it was just a lucky coincidence that the theme of the series just so happened to be all the rage in western kid culture at the time.

Oh and I just remembered that I forgot to bring up my old favorite of the many "anthropomorphic animals fight against polluters" shows, Biker Mice from Mars. The show basically shamelessly took elements from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Toxic Crusaders and mixed them up, but it was awesome:

 

[Sonic Fan J]

8 hours ago, batson said:

As has already been stated by Chilli Dawg, the man vs nature theme was very much intentional from the japanese side of things from the very beggining. Of course the interesting thing is that this theme doesn't appear to have really been a major thing in japanese pop culture at the time, meaning that the environmentalist theme of Sonic was either created with the intention of appealing to the west, or it was just a lucky coincidence that the theme of the series just so happened to be all the rage in western kid culture at the time.

I feel that @Chili Dawg really covered it pretty well here

On 4/20/2018 at 8:19 PM, Chili Dawg said:

Western marketing perhaps more blatantly spelled out that Eggman was a Republican guy who doesn't like the environment, but such things were present in Sonic from the beginning. I mean the very concept of animals being turned into robots is a pretty simple nature vs mechanization thing, and one need only look to Sonic CD's bad futures to see Sonic Team warning against unchecked industrialization and pollution.

And just ask the man himself:

“Dr Robotnik is a slightly radical representation of all humanity and the impact humanity is having on nature. In 1991, it was a very sensitive subject to talk about the environment and while I had my viewpoint, I did not speak of it. With Sonic, I was given an opportunity to express my views in a different way and did so, showing Robotnik using pollution and creating machinery which desecrates the environment and it is down to Sonic to change his ways.”

-Yuji Naka, 2010

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2010/10/naka-sonic-created-with-environmental-themes/

 

and it got me thinking that it's almost a shame that Hayao Miyazaki wasn't globally famous yet. Since reading that I can't help pondering how a team with one of the most outspoken men in Japan on environmental concerns (really anything if you put the topic in front of him) and the vision of Sonic the Hedgehog would have ended up. I say this even knowing how much Miyazaki will beat people over the head with his ideologies but I love his movies and have daydreamed before about a Ghibli/Sonic team up XD

[Multikaris]

Even older than The Little Flying Bears and The Bluffers is this episode of Gumby, where I think the Roboticization idea comes from:

 

Here, Gumby is taken into a glass chamber and turned into a robot slave to work in a factory. Sound familiar?

 

EDIT: This was made around the same time as The Bluffers. 

 

Edit: Bluffers came around in 1984! 

[batson]

On 5/28/2018 at 11:23 PM, Miragnarok said:

Even older than The Little Flying Bears and The Bluffers is this episode of Gumby, where I think the Roboticization idea comes from:

 

 

 

Honestly, the fact that the Sonic series started to downplay the whole roboticization thing makes me kinda sad (and yes yes, I know that in the games the animals weren't actually turned into robots but rather used to power robots, but whatevs). Sonic rescuing his animal friends from that cruel fate was the main story of Sonic 1, and it was such a memorable way to portray the whole nature VS technology theme, but the last Sonic game where it was made a big deal out of was Sonic Adventure with Gamma's story. Well, at least Lost World briefly brought back the theme with the Zetiz attempting to roboticizise Tails, which was neat.

[Tarnish]

Bummer we never got a Sonic & Captain Planet crossover..

[DryLagoon]

19 minutes ago, batson said:

Honestly, the fact that the Sonic series started to downplay the whole roboticization thing makes me kinda sad (and yes yes, I know that in the games the animals weren't actually turned into robots but rather used to power robots, but whatevs).

I think SA1&2 helped make it more clear gameplay wise that the animals were powering them. You break an Eggman robot? You get a little animal to use for Chao. You break a G.U.N. robot? You get a chaos drive to use for Chao. So even though they don't say outright in the game itself that the G.U.N. robots are powered by them, you can use what you know about Eggman's robots to figure that out. I think it's a pretty cool way to introduce a new item as it makes sense G.U.N. would use different methods than Eggman, and continues with information on Gerald's research. (and for those who don't care it only slightly changes gameplay)

Quote

Chaos Drives are crystallized chaos energy that are usually contained in devices. They seem to be a power source for robots. The Chaos Drives were initially designed by Professor Gerald Robotnik as a means of transferring energy to living tissue, as part of his work on Project Shadow.

 

[Plumbers_Helper]

The nature vs technology theme has definitely been there since the beginning. The Japanese manual for Sonic 2 outright says Eggman is responsible for the oil spill in Oil Ocean:

Dr Eggman has spilled oil into the sea.
You can't use your favored dash on slippery oil!
Advance by making full use of slides, fans and gas cylinders!

Even the original game shows Eggman polluted a section of the Labyrinth Zone in Scrap Brain Zone Act 3. The 8-bit version had the Chaos Emeralds remove all the air pollution caused by his factory in the good ending.

3 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I think SA1&2 helped make it more clear gameplay wise that the animals were powering them. You break an Eggman robot? You get a little animal to use for Chao. You break a G.U.N. robot? You get a chaos drive to use for Chao.

The same thing happens in Sonic Rush with all the G.U.N robots in Huge Crisis, though they don't drop any Chaos Drives.

3 hours ago, batson said:

Honestly, the fact that the Sonic series started to downplay the whole roboticization thing makes me kinda sad

I've always felt the same way. As a kid, who at the time had only Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and Sonic Mega Collection, I was really confused why Eggman's robots in Sonic Heroes didn't release any animals in them. By the time I finished the game I thought "Oh! Eggman's robots didn't have any animals in them because they aren't Eggman's robots. They're Metal Sonic's!". It made sense to me that a robot overlord wouldn't use inferior organics to build his empire...then 06 completely throws a wrench into things by having Eggman's robots powered by Chaos Drives. I guess he stole them from G.U.N? In Sonic Unleashed you can maybe headcannon it that Eggman is using Dark Gaia's energy to power his robots. While Sonic Team seamed to be forgetting this, Dimps seemed to at least remember Eggman uses animals to power his robots as Sonic Advance 1 & 2 featured them as normal. In Sonic Advance 3 Eggman uses normal rings, but there are still mini games where you can rescue animals from those capsule prisons and even the concept of badniks powered by flowers is used again. Sadly, Sonic Rush was the last Sonic game to use this concept again until Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors...nearly five years latter. They somehow both forgot and remembered this fact in Sonic Generations by only featuring robots with animals in them in optional missions. Sonic Lost World prominently brought this back, as did Sonic Mania, but then Sonic Forces completely forgot about this again. Maybe hand wave it away by saying Eggman used the Phantom Ruby to power his robots?

I don't know why Sega is so inconsistent which this concept, if they simply don't want to use animals then I think they should at least use something, Knuckles Chaotix had Dark Rings, Sonic CD used flowers, etc. A zone idea I always had as a kid was instead of an animal poping out like normal, a Chao does instead and flies off. By the end of the Zone the boss battle would take place in a Chao Garden, complete with the Chao running away in fear. After you land seven hits on Eggman he starts charging an attack that you can't stop. Before Eggman can make his move, all the Chao gain their courage, come back and land the final blow on him. There's so many cool ideas you could play with this concept, I don't know why Sega doesn't seem interested in using it outside nostalgia. Sonic 3D Blast, the Adventure games, and Sonc Lost World are the only games to use this idea in different ways.

[Plasme]

I'll be honest, when I was a kid I don't think I ever consciously thought about the nature vs machinery thing.

[DabigRG]

On 4/20/2018 at 9:14 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

In fact, in the translations I've read (mostly on Sonic Retro) in the original game Eggman had declared Sonic his lifelong enemy without Sonic ever really knowing why but still  made a mess of Eggman's plans anyway. By the time their conflict arrives at South Island and we play the first game Eggman expected Sonic to arrive ,which was no surprise since the locals somehow contacted him and asked for his help, and had placed Sonic's animal friends in his robots not so much for power, but as a means of forcing Sonic to hold back so that he might have a chance to best him.

 

 

Wait, what?!

10 hours ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

.

The same thing happens in Sonic Rush with all the G.U.N robots in Huge Crisis, though they don't drop any Chaos Drives.

The what now?

Honestly, I was under the impression Nega hijacked it for whatever reason or retroactively, that it simply got caught in the growing time space maelstrom

10 hours ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

..then 06 completely throws a wrench into things by having Eggman's robots powered by Chaos Drives. I guess he stole them from G.U.N?

They weren't Chaos Drives.

It's been a while, but I believe the  idea was the Egg Gunners and their Gem powering energy were actually made by the Duke's research team and Eggman simply repurposed them when he took over Aquatic Base.

10 hours ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

 

I don't know why Sega is so inconsistent which this concept, if they simply don't want to use animals then I think they should at least use something, Knuckles Chaotix had Dark Rings, Sonic CD used flowers, etc. A zone idea I always had as a kid was instead of an animal poping out like normal, a Chao does instead and flies off. By the end of the Zone the boss battle would take place in a Chao Garden, complete with the Chao running away in fear. After you land seven hits on Eggman he starts charging an attack that you can't stop. Before Eggman can make his move, all the Chao gain their courage, come back and land the final blow on him. There's so many cool ideas you could play with this concept, I don't know why Sega doesn't seem interested in using it outside nostalgia. Sonic 3D Blast, the Adventure games, and Sonc Lost World are the only games to use this idea in different ways.

That would've been cool.

 

[Sonic Fan J]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, what?!

From Sonic Retro

Quote

Translation of the Japanese manual

(Translation by Windii. Translator’s Note: In this translation, the sentences have been left as grammatically intact as possible in order to more accurately convey the exact wording of the original text. This method, however, results in an unusual sentence structure and flow.)

The evil scientist Doctor Eggman has begun hatching another evil plan.
"Sonic... blast that annoying, impertinent hedgehog. My great plans are always spoiled thanks to him. This time, I'll pinch and crush him with the power of my science! Heheheh..."

This is South Island, a treasure trove of jewels and historic relics. And it is also said that this is the island where the illusionary "Chaos Emeralds" lay dormant. Chaos Emeralds are a super substance that gives energy to all living things. Furthermore, they can also be used as nuclear weapons or high energy laser weapons by science and technology. However, no one knows how to obtain them. That is because South Island is an island that moves around and the Chaos Emeralds exist within the distortions created by the island.

One day, crisis visited upon the island. Doctor Eggman and his gang got down on the island.
"Hmph... I will obtain the Chaos Emeralds, even if I have to dig up this entire island for them."
Doctor Eggman built a huge fortress in the corner of the island and started development.

"That blasted Eggman. He still won't learn his lesson!?"
Sonic came running after hearing rumors. Doctor Eggman's trouble-making is nothing new. Up until now, Sonic dealt with him every time. It appears that Doctor Eggman thinks of Sonic as his arch-nemesis, but he was never any match for Sonic.

But this time, oh my... Something is amiss.

"Behold, Sonic! This time, everything will be different! I turned the island's animals into robots."

"You... you guys!"

"All of them will do as I say. In other words, this whole island is your enemy. Hahahahaha... cough, cough... This time, the world shall be mine~"

This is terrible! Go, Sonic the Hedgehog! Everyone is waiting for your help.

Admittedly I was a little off when I made my original comment, but in the Japanese Story that was in the game manual, as you can see, Sonic and Eggman were already enemies, and the actual nature of the relationships with the animals and robots is undefined. The manual says they are turned into robots, but the game shows that destroying the robots frees them. My personal read on it is more that it's pretty much a glorified hostage situation. Sonic can't go all out because of the nature of the robots this time around and Eggman believes that gives him the edge. You'll also notice that it does not say that Sonic lives on South Island. He goes in relation to rumors about Eggman's activities. You might also notice that the locals are not described as Sonic's friends, but just the island's animals. So while the first game in the franchise is a first for a lot of things, such as Eggman using animals to power robots, the Japanese manual actually gives a story that goes against a lot of what people know. As this story actually shipped with the games however it rather supersedes most other story material covering Sonic that was floating around at the time. It also supports my head canon that chronologically in universe, CD actually happens first.

 

[Moose the Cat]

Sonic's spiky head shape is a literal copy of Goku... placed on the body of Felix the Cat... colored blue like the company logo.... with red & white shoes to evoke Santa/Christmas to appeal to children (which is only red & white because the popular version of Santa Claus is actually the Coca Cola version of Santa)

 

Everything is building off of what came before. Some more than others!

[Plumbers_Helper]

3 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Admittedly I was a little off when I made my original comment, but in the Japanese Story that was in the game manual, as you can see, Sonic and Eggman were already enemies, and the actual nature of the relationships with the animals and robots is undefined. [...] You might also notice that the locals are not described as Sonic's friends, but just the island's animals.

The Sonic the Hedgehog Technical Files, essentially the Japanese internal bible for the series prior to Sonic Adventure, gives some more additional information to the story of the first game:

Sonic was born on a small island called Christmas Island. But his love for adventure called him away and he has visited so many different places on Earth that he doesn't really have a place he considers to be home. The Sonic stories center around his favorite group of islands including South Island (Sonic 1), Westside Island (Sonic 2), and Angel Island (Sonic 3). The first Sonic Story is located on South Island which is quite beautiful. This island is known for the curious fact that it floats around in the ocean. That is why it can not be found on any map. Sonic is fond of sitting on its beach in his beach chair, wearing sunglasses, and listening to cool rock music. Sonic loves to sing in his own rock band, and enjoys being with his friends, but he is just as happy to be alone.

Westside Island is a very ancient island with plenty of treasures and ancient ruins. It is also said to contain a small supply of a very powerful natural crystals called "Chaos Emeralds". These multi-colored emeralds have tremendous energy and could be used to create the most powerful nuclear bombs and laser weapons if they fell into the wrong hands. Legend says that they exist here, but nobody can remember actually seeing them. The reason for this is that the Chaos Emeralds exist in a _different dimension_ and no one has yet been able to find a way to actually possess them.

Sonic would be very happy enjoying his own pastimes were it not for the constant intrusions of his arch rival Dr. Robotnik (also sometimes known as Eggman because of his round shape). The evil doctor seems to have an endless supply of fiendish plots to take over the world, but Sonic seems to always find a way to frustrate his plans and keep him at bay. This has given Sonic somewhat of a celebrity status with the local inhabitants and he is loved by all as much as Robotnik is hated by all.

One day, Dr. Robotnik heard the stories of the Chaos Emeralds and he vowed to do whatever it took to acquire them for his own evil purposes. He, and his henchmen, built a huge fortress where he made robots of many types and sent them off to find the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic stood up in defiance of Robotnik's troops and kicked them all back into the fortress telling them never to come out again. But the evil doctor had other plans. as he sulked away, he vowed that he would find the Chaos Emeralds, and he would get his revenge on Sonic the Hedgehog.

A short time later, Sonic made an amazing discovery. His friends had all disappeared! Robotnik had been capturing all of the defenseless animals in the countryside and had changed them into robots! Dr. Robotnik was converting Sonic's friends into slaves and now only Sonic to save them! Can Sonic do it?

Will Robotnik succeed in his quest for the emeralds while exacting his revenge on Sonic? Can Sonic subdue the hoards of robot animals without hurting his friends inside? Will Robotnik take over the _whole world_?

So begins the video game saga of Sonic the Hedgehog......

One thing to note is this is an official translation originally released with Sonic Adventure 2 in limited quantities to celebrate Sonic's 10th anniversary. Because of that we don't know how much of the original text was altered, I'm certain the Robotnik name was added in the localization process. It also mentions information about Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, so was this information added for the 10th anniversary release or were these "Technical Files" routinely updated as future games were released? Regardless this is what we have available and it clearly states that the animals inside the robots are his friends. Probably not his best friends like Tails or Amy are, but still his friends. It also makes mention of Sonic being part of a band, which as most of us know was an early idea scrapped from the first game, although this idea was absent in the 16-bit version of Sonic 1 a remnant of this did make it into the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 as he sings into a microphone in that game's credits. The most interesting thing to me is the revelation that Sonic fought Eggman twice on South Island. If true, it would mean that the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 could actually be a prequel to the 16-bit version of Sonic 1 and not just a retelling of the same story like many think. The Japanese manual for the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 isn't very helpful in answering this, but it leaves absent certain details like Eggman being upset that Sonic keeps foiling his plans like the manual for the 16-bit version mentions. If Eggman's second attack on South Island is Eggman enacting his revenge like the Technical Files claim, then it would make sense that he's angry over his past defeats in the 16-bit version and not the 8-bit version...if the 8-bit version is indeed a prequel. But this is mostly headcanon territory at this point so why not.

Also to tie this back into the main topic of Sonic being designed to have a nature vs technology theme, the Technical Files have this to say about Eggman: "A genuine genius megalomaniac, he spends all of his time trying to replace the natural world with his beautiful machines. He is not very concerned about saving the planet (being a notorious polluter), and he particularly likes the idea of exploiting the oceans for their riches (This really gets to Sonic, because Sonic loves the oceans and can't stand the idea of Robotnik messing with them)."

3 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

The manual says they are turned into robots, but the game shows that destroying the robots frees them. My personal read on it is more that it's pretty much a glorified hostage situation. Sonic can't go all out because of the nature of the robots this time around and Eggman believes that gives him the edge.

That is possible, Sonic 3D Blast shows that Eggman's robots can run just fine without animals inside of them in Panic Puppet Zone.

3 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

It also supports my head canon that chronologically in universe, CD actually happens first.

Since there is no official statement on Sonic CD's chronological placement, it is possible. The closest thing we have to an official explanation is an interview with Yasushi Yamaguchi, the creator of Tails who worked on both Sonic CD and Sonic 2.

Yamaguchi: I was a character and graphic designer in Sonic 2. If you play Sonic CD through the end, I’m sure you’ll pick up on this, but Sonic CD falls in between Sonic 1 and 2, in terms of chronology. That’s why Tails doesn’t show up, nor can you transform into Super Sonic, since that’s a power granted to Sonic only after he collects all the chaos emeralds. Tails, however, does show up in Sonic CD for a cameo! (laughs) It’s just a little thing but try and find him! 

This, plus Eggman being familiar enough with Sonic at this point to create a robot to try and surpass his speed, is why I personally put it between Sonic 1 and 2.

I've posted this theory before, so I'll just copy and paste it, but some people believe this can't be since Metal Sonic is clearly more advanced looking then the other Sonic robots in Sonic 2 and 3K so logically Sonic CD should happen last. I used to think the same until I read that interview. However, the reason for that may have a simple answer. Metal Sonic was never originally designed to fight Sonic, only out race him. The other Sonic robots however were designed to fight Sonic which may explain why they tended to be more bulky, they were built to take damage and blunt force while Metal Sonic was designed to be smooth and slick for better air resistance. It would even explain why Metal Sonic was defeated so easily by running into a door while the other Sonic robots, especially Mecha Sonic from Sonic 3K, took multiple attacks to take down. The Japanese manual for Knuckles Chaotix confirms that even when Metal Sonic's body is destroyed "his main and sub CPU" is able to survive and then be reinserted into a new, more powerful body. This explains why Metal Sonic can fight in later games and a reference to his older broken bodies can even be seen in Sonic Mania. His CPUs mysteriously always surviving may have something to do with that mysterious orb he finds in Lost Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 4 Episode Metal. The idea of Metal Sonic being the original Sonic robot is an interesting idea to me. Eggman keeps trying to recreate one of his greatest creations, but they never manage live up to Metal Sonic. Metal Sonic, no matter how much he wants to be as he mentioned in Sonic Heroes, will never be the real Sonic. But he will always be the real Robot Sonic.

The only other Sonic robot that we know is still "alive" is Mecha Sonic, AKA Silver Sonic, from Sonic 2 as seen in a tube from Sonic Adventure. Even his reappearance in Sonic Pocket Adventure shows that he mostly survives his battle with Sonic. Perhaps the Sonic robot from Sonic 2 and Sonic Pocket Adventure are two different robots that just happen to look alike. It definitely doesn't look like the robot in Sonic 2 survived his fight with Sonic, but the Sonic robot in Sonic Pocket Adventure did which would explain why it's still intact in Sonic Adventure. A more wild explanation could be the robot in Sonic Pocket Adventure is actually Metal Sonic. Maybe a proper body for him wasn't available yet, so his CPUs were inserted into a weaker, more primitive and faster to produce model. The idea that Metal Sonic's very "soul" can be put into any robot definitely opens a lot of theories and possibilities.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

They weren't Chaos Drives.

It's been a while, but I believe the  idea was the Egg Gunners and their Gem powering energy were actually made by the Duke's research team and Eggman simply repurposed them when he took over Aquatic Base.

You're kind of right. What you're talking about are Light Cores, which according to the Sonic wiki, was used by Eggman to power his robots in addition to Chaos Drives. I've never gotten the chance to play Sonic 06, I've played virtually every Sonic game except maybe Rush Adventure and the Rivals games, but 06 always eluded me for some reason. If only that PC port they originally announced happened...

[batson]

4 hours ago, Moose the Cat said:

Sonic's spiky head shape is a literal copy of Goku... placed on the body of Felix the Cat... colored blue like the company logo.... with red & white shoes to evoke Santa/Christmas to appeal to children (which is only red & white because the popular version of Santa Claus is actually the Coca Cola version of Santa)

 

Everything is building off of what came before. Some more than others!

I think perhapes the most telling evidence of how Sonic was a mish-mash of popular late 80's/early 90's trends is the fact that one of his early suggested designs is litteraly a fusion of Mario and Bart Simpson:

[Moose the Cat]

35 minutes ago, batson said:

I think perhapes the most telling evidence of how Sonic was a mish-mash of popular late 80's/early 90's trends is the fact that one of his early suggested designs is litteraly a fusion of Mario and Bart Simpson:

Yeah! You can definitely see it there -- that's almost literally "What if Mario but Bart Simpson?" And there's interviews with Ohshima and other Sega/Sonic Team designers who straight up are like, yeah, that was the directive; the corporate bosses wanted a Poochie.  Sonic was engineered from conception to be trendy and popular in that specific moment of time as their mascot. Sega wasn't looking any further ahead beyond the immediate future or the next shareholder meeting.

It's interesting how Sonic has endured for decades. There's little doubt in my mind that, like, 80% of the ongoing appeal is simply the character design.

Sonic's design is clearly a mix of existing elements (especially  "1930s cartoons + Dragon Ball") but Ohshima & the artists ended up forming something familiar but unique that captured a timeless feel, and I think that helps a lot ... even when Sega tries to remove the timelessness by adding, say, Soap shoes to his design.