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Characters that never grew on you (Games only)


Austroid

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The difference between Orbot with Cubot and other Eggman sidekick teams is that the other teams occasionally had moments where you could see how Eggman would keep them around instead of scraping them (be it being cunning, being capable combatants, or having handy skills like Grounder being a swiss army bot) among otherwise being proactive. Orbot and Cubot haven't really had such moments while also hardly ever taking the fight against Sonic's posse. 

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14 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I was wondering why the second post didn't auto-merge, but I guess it's because there was roughly 30 minutes between them? So yeah, if too much time has passed, please remember to use the edit button instead of double posting!!

Okay, sorry for being lazy!

2 minutes ago, Almar said:

The difference between Orbot with Cubot and other Eggman sidekick teams is that the other teams occasionally had moments where you could see how Eggman would keep them around instead of scraping them (be it being cunning, being skilled combatants, or having handy skills like Grounder being a swiss army bot) among otherwise being proactive. Orbot and Cubot haven't really had such moments while also hardly ever taking the fight against Sonic's posse. 

Thus far, it seems like they mainly just do basic assistance and cleanup on the occasion.

Though I seem to recall Cubot at least having super strength in addition to the projector screen in his eye.

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Alright. So have Cubot do something with his super strength against Sonic's posse. As it stands, he's Grounder without abilties that make him occasionally be a threat that Sonic should be wary around.

Also, I'll point he and Orbot were introduced in an awkward way since the series before Unleashed never stood with giving Eggman a sidekick even if it played with having Metal Sonic or Shadow or G-Mel being that sidekick.

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9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I still think Silver is completely terrible. His design is awful and I still have absolutely no idea what they were even going for with his spikes. His introductory game (which I still count even though it got time-wiped, since it's still his most significant role) had him basically be dumber/more naive than Knuckles, unhesitatingly trusting time-travel Satan that if he kills the guy he shows him in a vision that'll fix everything. But while Knuckles ended up being portrayed as amusingly bumbling and gets some proper comeuppance for being a dick, we're expected to take Silver angsting over whether it's ok to sacrifice Sonic to Satan very seriously and aside from a kick to the head (which, while appreciated, isn't enough) he suffers no consequences for trying to kill Sonic. And within his story he doesn't even end up accomplishing anything of value; he's still unable to stop Iblis in the end, forcing a character that is actually likeable to sacrifice herself...which ends up getting overwritten by time bullshit anyway and only accomplishes erasing her from the climax of the game, because '06 is a trash fire.

And nothing I've seen from him since has changed my opinion. He's still basically the same guy, but with an inflated sense of importance as if he's actually accomplished something meaningful. He hasn't done anything as stupid as trust literal Satan about killing a guy, but he hasn't done much of anything else, either. He just shows up to be time cop sometimes.

I think you've pinpointed why I tend to find 'serious' characters more irritating than comical ones. At least the cast members that are supposed to be bumbling comic relief have most of their idiot/annoying moments played intentionally and often at their own expense. If a serious 'badass' character runs on idiot/jerk logic it's often just bad writing, and for some reason we're supposed to still treat them with this dignified air.

One of the better choice of many later interpretations was playing Silver as at least a bit of a bluff-and-bluster buffoon.

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While I've never hated Omochao all that much. That was one of the myriad of reasons Sonic and the Black Knight was such a shot in the arm. On a meta level the twist was making the Omochao of the game the true villain. I can appreciate it for that alone. xD

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1 hour ago, Almar said:

Alright. So have Cubot do something with his super strength against Sonic's posse. As it stands, he's Grounder without abilties that make him occasionally be a threat that Sonic should be wary around.

Pretty much.

49 minutes ago, Cuz said:

While I've never hated Omochao all that much. That was one of the myriad of reasons Sonic and the Black Knight was such a shot in the arm. On a meta level the twist was making the Omochao of the game the true villain. I can appreciate it for that alone. xD

...Omochao was in Black Knight?

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2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

...Omochao was in Black Knight?

"The Omochao of the game" aka Merlina. 

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That's why I said it's a meta detail, Merlina, Shahra, Black Doom's "squid eye", all serve as "tutorial voice" characters at one point or another.

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If we talking only games, then I'm just gonna come out and say it: Mighty and Ray never really appealed to me. First off, they are clearly based too much on Sonic and Tails to the point they seem like recolors. Mighty had the generic "pacifist-unless-needed" personality, and Ray didn't really have much of a personality. They didn't really appear in many games. In fact, Ray (discounting Mania +, because it hasn't released) only appeared in one. The comics did them justice, however. (Thanks, Mr. Flynn!)

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I would have to say Silver. There is also Shadow, but I think Silver's biggest issue is the way Sonic Team wanted to present this one character as having a very strong sense of justice... one that supposedly was stronger than that of other more humble characters (which ironically have a more balanced and grounded understanding of it) like Amy, Tails, Big, etc, only for his characterization in 06 to show how he couldn't even start telling between right and wrong, and no, it's not just because of how he took the advise of Satan some creepy looking guy with snake eyes and no mouth that visually yelled "EVIL!" all over the place without questioning, but how he didn't even started to consider the moral dilemma that comes with saving the world at the price of killing someone until after Amy confronted him for trying to take Sonic's life.

Maybe if he had learned the lesson of this convoluted story my opinion on Silver would be more positive, but saddly that never happend as the resolution to 06's plot involved convenient things like time traveling for him to see Mephiles deception instead of thinking of how maybe there was another way to solve things without resorting to such extreme meassures, as well as the consequences like when Amy, the first and only friend he made on Sonic's timeline, abandoned him.

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4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think you've pinpointed why I tend to find 'serious' characters more irritating than comical ones. At least the cast members that are supposed to be bumbling comic relief have most of their idiot/annoying moments played intentionally and often at their own expense. If a serious 'badass' character runs on idiot/jerk logic it's often just bad writing, and for some reason we're supposed to still treat them with this dignified air.

One of the better choice of many later interpretations was playing Silver as at least a bit of a bluff-and-bluster buffoon.

Okay, what in the world is idiot/jerk logic, and how in the world is it better for comical characters? Because if anything, comic relief isn’t much of an excuse if it comes off as more annoying than humorous, as it’s not immune to bad writing either.

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16 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Okay, what in the world is idiot/jerk logic, and how in the world is it better for comical characters? Because if anything, comic relief isn’t much of an excuse if it comes off as more annoying than humorous, as it’s not immune to bad writing either.

I think that is when characters, particularly comical ones, do dumb things instead of what most people with common sense would chose to do in their place. I don't have a problem with this because said comical character are expected to make mistakes in order to create comical situations that are intentional from part of the writers.

On the other hand, contrast this with Silver, a "serious/badass" type character that despite being supposed to know better, makes all kind of dumb mistakes for no reason other than poor/lazy writing, which unlike the previous example, is unintentional.

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24 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

I think that is when characters, particularly comical ones, do dumb things instead of what most people with common sense would chose to do in their place. I don't have a problem with this because said comical character are expected to make mistakes in order to create comical situations that are intentional from part of the writers.

On the other hand, contrast this with Silver, a "serious/badass" type character that despite being supposed to know better, makes all kind of dumb mistakes for no reason other than poor/lazy writing, which unlike the previous example, is unintentional.

That's called giving a character flaws and them being inexperienced in what they are doing

You know

Character development

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"Serious/badass" is really not Silver's intended archtype. He's young, wide-eyed, and naive.

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53 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

I think that is when characters, particularly comical ones, do dumb things instead of what most people with common sense would chose to do in their place. I don't have a problem with this because said comical character are expected to make mistakes in order to create comical situations that are intentional from part of the writers.

On the other hand, contrast this with Silver, a "serious/badass" type character that despite being supposed to know better, makes all kind of dumb mistakes for no reason other than poor/lazy writing, which unlike the previous example, is unintentional.

Uh, no...that’s not lazy writing, not in the sense you’re putting it as. That’s actually a character flaw (albeit one that was poorly handled in a very poorly written game like basically everything else).

Silver wasn’t established as a character that’s supposed to know better. He was established as a character desperate to find a solution to his problem, and that desperation resulted in him being gullible and naive enough to make mistakes in the first place, which, believe it or not, is definitely believable and possible for a serious/badass character to do—nothing in the words “serious” or “badass” has anything to do with “wisdom,” now does it? Hell, ask Knuckles about that when Eggman first tricked him (edit: and before anyone even tries it, no that is not the same as being stupid).

The only part about bad writing is that it does a poor job of selling that to the audience who can see the problems in this a mile away. And even then, while that certainly does affect how the character received given that how they end up shown to the audience (and this isn’t excusing the character if criticism either), that’s mainly the fault of the nutjob who wrote the plot somehow not understanding that they spoiled everything to the audience.

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3 minutes ago, Cuz said:

"Serious/badass" is really not Silver's intended archtype. He's young, wide-eyed, and naive.

Basically, i'm also not excusing the other issues that are stated above. He doesn't really get reprimanded or in trouble for fucking everything up, and he does get an elevated sense of importance for causing a problem that... to be quite honest shadow solving, though to be fair shadow also ends up solving a few of sonic's problems to in that game...along with the plot. Point is, he ain't perfect.

That said though , he shouldn't be literally perfect him being a bit naive and bad at his job at first is the start of a journey and makes him interesting. Shadow has a myriad reasons why he makes a few mistakes as he can manage. Silver is a guy with some powers doing the best he can. I mean he fucks up really bad and should get yelled at for it. But he's doing his best

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Even if they are intended as flaws, the execution on both Silver and Shadow fall flat on their face because of how the first can't tell between right and wrong despite being sold as a paladin of justice, while the second is pretty much a tool to whatever other characters tell him to do, as in the case of the supposed tampered memories of Maria that instruct Shadow to kill humanity, which assuming Shadow's memories were the only thing being manipulated and not his will or judgement, should had made him rise an eyebrow about how something was not right.

This is why it annoys me when writers, particularly Japanese ones, pretend to create characters with an internal conflict that is supposed to bring some "depth" to the narrative, yet they come off more as anything but that. Like E-122 said, at least the more comical characters are supposed to make mistakes for thing to happen, and can to an extent be forgiven (but not justified, especially when comedy can also be poorly executed) since it's to be expected of them anyway.

The other thing that I resent due to this is how these supposedly "deeper" character are often not treated more favorable than the more bubbly/silly characters who I perceive to have more credibility when it comes down to handle more complex issues due to them being much closer to the ordinary mortal rather than being idealized as something higher, thus why they just don't grow on me nor catch my interest.

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2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Even if they are intended as flaws, the execution on both Silver and Shadow fall flat on their face because of how the first can't tell between right and wrong despite being sold as a paladin of justice, while the second is pretty much a tool to whatever other characters tell him to do, as in the case of the supposed tampered memories of Maria that instruct Shadow to kill humanity, which assuming Shadow's memories were the only thing being manipulated and not his will or judgement, should had made him rise an eyebrow about how something was not right.

I can understand Silver’s execution falling on its face, particularly after I literally just said it was poorly done in the first place.

Shadow...I’m sorry, that’s just being dishonest against him given that him being a tool was partly the whole point of his character in SA2 (and ShTH, but his direction there was widely accepted as poorly handled for obvious reasons anyway). And to criticize that for being as intended is to ignore that in favor of looking for something to complain about.

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This is why it annoys me when writers, particularly Japanese ones, pretend to create characters with an internal conflict that is supposed to bring some "depth" to the narrative, yet they come off more as anything but that. Like E-122 said, at least the more comical characters are supposed to make mistakes for thing to happen, and can to an extent be forgiven (but not justified, especially when comedy can also be poorly executed) since it's to be expected of them anyway.

That doesn’t make comical character better tho, and they too run the gamut of being annoying and grating as a result of poor writing. Don’t need to look any further than Sticks in Boom for that.

Especially when, it being “expected of them” runs both ways regardless of how comical or serious a character is—that also means it’s not really a good excuse to just leave it at. Comical characters can just as easily become bland one-notes as serious characters can, and they shouldn’t be excused for it just because they sit on the other end of the spectrum, otherwise that being less critical and more playing favorites.

Nothing wrong with liking comedy, but that’s not a shield against the same problems it suffers with everything else.

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8 hours ago, Cuz said:

"Serious/badass" is really not Silver's intended archtype. He's young, wide-eyed, and naive.

I think what they're getting at is that while he is indeed young, naive, and inexperienced in many areas, 06's tone seemed to try to make Silver(and every character besides Knuckles, Amy, and in a few instances Eggman) come off as these epic, determined, and deep heroes with seriously complex philosophical arcs. Thus, Silver's supposed insecurities seldom really come out there, even though it was meant to be the introduction of his character as a mainstay.

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I'm overall a big fan of the cast, I mean, I grew up with them so I don't want to hear how much they suck, so I'm outta here, call me when a character appreciation thread gets more than one post. (I know negative threads tend to open more discussion)

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As said, the problem is the characters do things that are supposed to be relatably flawed but instead end looking incredibly idiotic or downright sociopathic, and even worse still get treated with some sense of dignity about it.

Shadow for instance doesn't quite hit the fine line as an 'anti hero' in times, in Sonic X he branches out from being a misled tragic character into a violent psychopath who tries to not just kill an innocent that is a potential hindrance, but takes utter psychotic pleasure drawing it out and feeding off of her and everyone else's terror. And yet straight after this failed attempt the other heroes are talking to him pleasantly.

Silver was meant to be flawed in 06 but still a fairly lucid character, but again he did incredibly stupid and immoral things beyond what his depiction was really supposed to represent (twice over he fails to kill Sonic because, like the Shadow example, he decides to revel in his pain like a cliche villain). And of course he's forgiven and treated jovially despite giving the usual edgy 'so not apologising' turn every cliche anti villain does.

Later takes on Silver tend to even things out by making him more intentionally a clown, which I think also gives more substance to him making dumb mistakes. At least he's SUPPOSED to be genre blind. Same for Knuckles, there's NO way you could take a guy who falls for Eggman's lies over and over seriously. At least lampshaded for laughs, it became something of a quirk instead of plot enforced stupidity. Shadow....well given his shtick is to be edgy, they're kinda stuck. In Boom he was pretty much simplified into a cliche edgy jerk, but even then the writers outright stated they were wary of making too many jokes at his expense. The games do try to make Shadow more reasonable, but that kinda comes at the cost of making him more bland as well (Amy seems to suffer the same problem right now, it's a no-win situation).

I think the problem is people often identify comical traits as making a character nothing more than a gag, a parody of themselves. Often giving a character traits that rob them of their dignify can humanise them greatly and create more substance and balance when they are needed to make mistakes. Sonic works better making an ass of himself by being reckless every once in a while for example, otherwise we get unidentifiable stock hero interpretations like his Heroes/Sonic X counterpart. The main problem is balance and execution to make this all work and keep the character three dimensional.

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Dude, I'm sorry, but this sounds like the usual "Funny is good, Serious is bad" debacle all over again, and you know it is not that black and white.

This is especially notable when you claim Silver having more substance as a clown making dumb mistakes, and I just pointed out that that is not how it works when mistakes of any kind, even dumb ones, can happen regardless of whether a characters is silly or serious. That is not the spectrum of good or bad writing. And it's not about him being genre blind either, it's about how his characterization works to sell us whether he should be smart enough to know something or ignorant enough not to, all of it based on his own knowledge and/or abilities.

Same with Knuckles, as people didn't find it funny that he fell for Eggman's lies multiple times. Hell, they didn't even take it seriously--they found it annoying because Knuckles should have wised up enough not to fall for it more than once or twice. It's actually for very similar reasons that people got tired of Eggman constantly unearthing god-like forces he can't control or being upstaged by a new villain until they started subverting or defying that trend since Colors.

A silly character doesn't have to be stupid, and believe it or not, they can not only be incredibly cunning and intelligent, but they can also be serious as well. And beyond the fact that you have a preference for one over the other (which is perfectly fine, everyone has preferences), I really don't get why you separate these aspects and claim one has a greater quality over the other when that's not how it works.

But more interestingly than that...

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The main problem is balance and execution to make this all work and keep the character three dimensional.

What exactly are those dimensions of a character?

Because something tells me it's not what you think it is...and I will keep pressing you on this if it's not answered.

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  • 1 month later...

Metal.png.1e680c93a1915e8b4c481be501abe349.png

This will probably be a controversial pick, but Metal Sonic hasn't grown on me in quite some time. I recognize he's a awesome design but he'll always be Robotnik's "Dragon"; a super badnik with little else going on character wise. The mental link in the OVA was an interesting take, and his turn as Emperor Metal was sort of interesting and I'd love to know where Ian was going with it in the post-reboot, but the chances of seeing Metal try that again are pretty slim.

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Shadow

He is a crap "evil version" character that is all too common, not to mention his awful backstory and being the character who i blame for bringing on the dark age of Sonic.

At least metal makes sense, the good doctors greatest creation to counter Sonic.

Shadow is so lame, edgy and dark done the wrong way.

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I thought we got over this age of scapegoating...

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