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Plasme

The strict split between 'Classic' and 'Modern'

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I don't mean here between Classic Sonic and 'Modern' 3D Sonic. I do think that there should be two ongoing sets of games for each style. Sonic in 2D has never been properly captured in 3D, not even in impressive fangames like Utopia. 3D Sonic usually has its own very unique gameplay identity, and fans of Adventure and the Boost games like the 3D games for very different reasons for why they also like the 2D classic games (on the whole). I know this is debatable, but I don't want to get into this particular debate right now.

I'm talking more about character and universe identity. Classic Sonic in Forces is now from a 'different dimension', in a clear attempt to separate the universes of Classic Sonic and post-Adventure 'Modern' games like Forces. When Mania Plus was announced, I was really excited for the new possiblr characters, and I really think Mighty and Ray exemplify the problems with this. I feel like they were picked simply because they represent the 'classic' universe. Ok, Mighty's easier to develop since his sprite is based on Sonic, but Ray's sprite is entirely new. They are, let's be honest, dull characters, especially Ray. There are many, many character from the post Adventure era which would be more interesting. Shadow, Blaze, Rouge, Cream. And a number of those characters made their star debut in 2D games too.

I understand why this was done with Mania Plus, because it is intended to be a Saturn followup to Sonic and Knuckles. It makes sense, and there's not much of a character pool to pick from. Someone like Blaze would feel out of place. But is this what 2D Sonic is going to be going forward? . As if we are in a time bubble stuck in 1996 and nothing after then well ever feature in the games.

Is anyone else concerned about this?

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24 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I don't mean here between Classic Sonic and 'Modern' 3D Sonic. I do think that there should be two ongoing sets of games for each style. Sonic in 2D has never been properly captured in 3D, not even in impressive fangames like Utopia. 3D Sonic usually has its own very unique gameplay identity, and fans of Adventure and the Boost games like the 3D games for very different reasons for why they also like the 2D classic games (on the whole). I know this is debatable, but I don't want to get into this particular debate right now.

I'm talking more about character and universe identity. Classic Sonic in Forces is now from a 'different dimension', in a clear attempt to separate the universes of Classic Sonic and post-Adventure 'Modern' games like Forces. When Mania Plus was announced, I was really excited for the new possiblr characters, and I really think Mighty and Ray exemplify the problems with this. I feel like they were picked simply because they represent the 'classic' universe. Ok, Mighty's easier to develop since his sprite is based on Sonic, but Ray's sprite is entirely new. They are, let's be honest, dull characters, especially Ray. There are many, many character from the post Adventure era which would be more interesting. Shadow, Blaze, Rouge, Cream. And a number of those characters made their star debut in 2D games too.

I understand why this was done with Mania Plus, because it is intended to be a Saturn followup to Sonic and Knuckles. It makes sense, and there's not much of a character pool to pick from. Someone like Blaze would feel out of place. But is this what 2D Sonic is going to be going forward? . As if we are in a time bubble stuck in 1996 and nothing after then well ever feature in the games.

Is anyone else concerned about this?

We could get these characters if they did the game with the modern style like Sonic Advance and Sonic Rush, but for some reason some people don't like green eyes on Sonic -__-

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It's not necessarily stuck in a time bubble; if they're going to keep up this "classic dimension", then it's going to move forward on its own path. That means we probably won't see much if anything from the "modern" dimension (though it's entirely possible they could make classic dimension versions of modern characters and the like), but they're free to create new stuff that is specific to the classic dimension.

Personally aside from Blaze I don't think the classic dimension is missing out on much anyway. The modern continuity is a mess.

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28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's not necessarily stuck in a time bubble; if they're going to keep up this "classic dimension", then it's going to move forward on its own path. That means we probably won't see much if anything from the "modern" dimension (though it's entirely possible they could make classic dimension versions of modern characters and the like), but they're free to create new stuff that is specific to the classic dimension.

Personally aside from Blaze I don't think the classic dimension is missing out on much anyway. The modern continuity is a mess.

But it's a beautiful mess nonetheless. Don't you consider at least Sonic Adventure 1 a worthy successor of the classic games? It had the physics, it had classic vibes, badniks and small animals, and some retro music.

It especially develops Knuckle's story.

I would consider the "modern timeline" as the unappealing games like Sonic Colors and Generations and onwards.

For me, the good timeline is a mix of classic and modern = Sonic 1 to Sonic Unleashed.

We can't be put into boxes and segregated into people who only like classic and people who only like modern.

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They are, let's be honest, dull characters, especially Ray. There are many, many character from the post Adventure era which would be more interesting. Shadow, Blaze, Rouge, Cream. And a number of those characters made their star debut in 2D games too.



Or they could take those "dull" characters and make them less dull? Personally, I think it's fantastic that they're revitalizing Mighty and Ray. It gives them a chance to establish their own niche and identity.

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5 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

But it's a beautiful mess nonetheless. Don't you consider at least Sonic Adventure 1 a worthy successor of the classic games? It had the physics, it had classic vibes, badniks and small animals, and some retro music.

It especially develops Knuckle's story.

I would consider the "modern timeline" as the unappealing games like Sonic Colors and Generations and onwards.

For me, the good timeline is a mix of classic and modern = Sonic 1 to Sonic Unleashed.

We can't be put into boxes and segregated into people who only like classic and people who only like modern.

Forces can be considered as at least an attempt at a return to form. 

 

Also, I think maybe a third split is in order. A Dreamcast-era spilt, especially if Sonic Team truly don’t really want the DC era characters around any longer in favor of their new ones like the Wisps, is needed. 

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10 minutes ago, Mega said:

 



Or they could take those "dull" characters and make them less dull? Personally, I think it's fantastic that they're revitalizing Mighty and Ray. It gives them a chance to establish their own niche and identity.

For me it makes zero difference if they don't appear in modern games. It's like they are only in the classic era and only in 1996.

I want something new with them! I still consider them obscure (=classic only) characters

In 3D, if Sonic Team was less careless, they could have a real story, personality, voice actors...

 

Also I wanna say something important, Sonic Riders could take place in another dimension, or the future, or the present, it doesn't matter, we are free to place it wherever we want in our headcanon. We don't have that freedom with Sonic Mania, and thus modern fans are alienated.

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In all honesty, the classic/modern split has been a thing since the start of the development of Sonic Generations. And continues up to now, so I don´t think anything would change after 9 years of it.

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14 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

But it's a beautiful mess nonetheless.

I'm honestly more disgusted by it than anything, at this point.

14 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Don't you consider at least Sonic Adventure 1 a worthy successor of the classic games?

I consider it an honest attempt that unfortunately failed more than it succeeded. And considering it hasn't been relevant even in the modern dimension for well over a decade (Chaos in Forces doesn't count), I don't feel any need to cling to it. I'm content with it staying in 1999 and the rest of the series moving forward.

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Sonic would have remained an obscure platforming game if there was no 3D transition, and we wouldn't be discussing this stuff here.

They could AT THE VERY LEAST keep Sonic Mania in the past so we can have a coherent timeline and universe.

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14 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Sonic would have remained an obscure platforming game if there was no 3D transition, and we wouldn't be discussing this stuff here.

They could AT THE VERY LEAST keep Sonic Mania in the past so we can have a coherent timeline and universe.

But, they did. Let me say two things... Sonic Generations was released in Nov 2011, Taxman remasters in Dec 2011 (CD) and 2013 (1 and 2) and Mania now. And SEGA executives + Iizuka knew very well why they greenlighted all the remasters... As Generations ends with Classic Sonic and Classic Tails returning to the Green Hill Zone you play Taxman´s remasters of Sonic 1 (return to the Green Hill Zone) and 2 with ehm... Classic Sonic and Classic Tails. And then... ahem... yes, no Sonic 3, but there is Mania.

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31 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Don't you consider at least Sonic Adventure 1 a worthy successor of the classic games? 

Perhaps if Adventure 1 turned out more like this; 

Still it would be impossible to have all stages on this sort of scale, but at least more attempt towards the sandbox style here. This is one of the few times a 3D Sonic stage actually ideologically resembles Mega Drive Sonic, especially towards 3:42 when multiple levels can be scaled only by different approaches and skills and the various wall running bits that are perfect analogs to 2D Sonic with how the circumstances of them are approached. 

37 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

It had the physics

No it did not. You can see straight at 3:02 how neutered Sonic's responses to different slopes are. Even if the stages were perfect, Sonic would have be tweaked quite a bit to get something on the level of the Mega Drive games. Still, is is sadly the closest thing we have to Mega Drive in 3D officially. 

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1 minute ago, superman43 said:

But, they did. Let me say two things... Sonic Generations was released in Nov 2011, Taxman remasters in Dec 2011 (CD) and 2013 (1 and 2) and Mania now. And SEGA executives + Iizuka knew very well why they greenlighted all the remasters... As Generations ends with Classic Sonic and Classic Tails you play Taxman´s remasters of Sonic 1 and 2 with ehm... Classic Sonic and Classic Tails. And then... ahem... yes, no Sonic 3, but there is Mania.

This makes no sense

1 minute ago, A crocodile said:

No it did not. You can see straight at 3:02 how neutered Sonic's responses to different slopes are. Even if the stages were perfect, Sonic would have be tweaked quite a bit to get something on the level of the Mega Drive games. Still, is is sadly the closest thing we have to Mega Drive in 3D officially. 

You're talking when he's runnin, but I'm talking when he's spindashing, the speed increases very very much on slopes.

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3 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

This makes no sense

Classic Sonic:

Sonic Generations (ending with Green Hill Zone) -----> Sonic 1 remaster (starting with Green Hill Zone, choosing Sonic & Tails) ----> Sonic CD remaster (having playable Tails) ----> Sonic 2 remaster ----> (Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles remaster) ----> Sonic Mania ----> Sonic Forces ----> Sonic Mania Plus

Modern Sonic:
Sonic Generations ----> Sonic Lost World ----> Sonic Forces

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3 minutes ago, superman43 said:

But, they did. Let me say two things... Sonic Generations was released in Nov 2011, Taxman remasters in Dec 2011 (CD) and 2013 (1 and 2) and Mania now. And SEGA executives + Iizuka knew very well why they greenlighted all the remasters... As Generations ends with Classic Sonic and Classic Tails returning to the Green Hill Zone you play Taxman´s remasters of Sonic 1 (return to the Green Hill Zone) and 2 with ehm... Classic Sonic and Classic Tails. And then... ahem... yes, no Sonic 3, but there is Mania.

This is a ridiculous asspull. Taxman's Sonic CD works just happened to be noticed by SEGA around the time of Generations' development and thus Sonic 1 and 2 remasters came as CD was successful. This was not intentional at all. 

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17 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Sonic would have remained an obscure platforming game if there was no 3D transition, and we wouldn't be discussing this stuff here.

They could AT THE VERY LEAST keep Sonic Mania in the past so we can have a coherent timeline and universe.

Yo, what? How could you even reach this conclusion?

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Just now, superman43 said:

Classic Sonic:

Sonic Generations (ending with Green Hill Zone) -----> Sonic 1 remaster (starting with Green Hill Zone, choosing Sonic & Tails) ----> Sonic CD remaster (having playable Tails) ----> Sonic 2 remaster ----> (Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles remaster) ----> Sonic Mania ----> Sonic Forces ----> Sonic Mania Plus

Modern Sonic:
Sonic Generations ----> Sonic Lost World ----> Sonic Forces

For me I prefer Ian Flynn's explanation in Archie, where Classic Sonic returns right before meeting Amy and gradually forgets these events, hence the chronolgy is unaltered.

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1 minute ago, A crocodile said:

This is a ridiculous asspull. Taxman's Sonic CD works just happened to be noticed by SEGA around the time of Generations' development and thus Sonic 1 and 2 remasters came as CD was successful. This was not intentional at all. 

Maybe intentional, maybe not. Nobody would say.

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2 minutes ago, Balding Spider said:

Yo, what? How could you even reach this conclusion?

Each franchise has to evolve, we can't have a Sonic 1 each year!

Also, 3D enabled a HUGE number of new fans to come, enabling countless fanarts and fanfictions which further promotes the franchise, and enlarges the community

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Just now, Marco9966 said:

Each franchise has to evolve, we can't have a Sonic 1 each year!

Also, 3D enabled a HUGE number of new fans to come, enabling countless fanarts and fanfictions which further promotes the franchise, and enlarging the community

Not only 3D, also boost enabled new fans to come. I wouldn't state HUGE, that might be overstatement.

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1 minute ago, superman43 said:

Not only 3D, also boost enabled new fans to come. I wouldn't state HUGE, that might be overstatement.

No, I'm talking also about the new characters and stories and lore. With or without boost, it's still 3D with stories.

Sonic Fan characters are all in the modern style.

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Just now, Marco9966 said:

No, I'm talking also about the new characters and stories and lore. With or without boost, it's still 3D with stories.

Ok, I just said I won't call the number huge.

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Honestly, the idea of there being two timelines, one being Classic and the other being Modern, isn't inherently a bad thing. If anything it does make Sonic less like what happened with Megaman where Classic Megaman and the X series was connected by the Cataclysm via Zero being built and existing. I know it's a bad way to make a comparison. Though I did think the Sonic Universe kinda ran like that somehow. Not sure why. Maybe it could be due to the stuff with Sonic X. Eh.

But getting back on topic. There is still much that can be done with the classic series. It was kinda left in the dust when Sonic Adventure became a thing. There have been some attempts, and some have been kinda good I suppose. Though Mania definitely continues the Classic Sonic universe properly. And it is nice to go back to basics on some level. Though I am not sure how the Modern Universe will be addressed, with all the fuckery and mess to deal with.

 

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

We could get these characters if they did the game with the modern style like Sonic Advance and Sonic Rush, but for some reason some people don't like green eyes on Sonic -__-

I would agree that this would be a neat idea, but yeah. Choosy fans prefer black eyed Sonic. Not sure why it's a issue, let alone why it has to be a huge one. But there are always going to be those few fans that MUST make issues over such trivial things, like eye color. So it's best not to let it bother you.

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