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The strict split between 'Classic' and 'Modern'

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7 hours ago, Celestia said:

In terms of the split dimensions thing: if we find out that SEGA has decided the classic games never happened in the "Modern" world, that's when I'll get pissed

They can't really do that as long as Adventure and Heroes are canon, since they bring up those in their own narratives. What they can do (and did do in Adventure) is say that they went through the broad strokes of the classic games but with modern designs and not strictly adhering to the events of the games themselves. 

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Adventure One has Eggman's Classic design show up in Hedgehog Hammer and even had Classic models for the characters during development. Its plot was more or less an exploring of tangents brought up in Sonic 3's lore. The seperation between Classic and Modern was blurrier (if even there to begin with) back then than now.

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8 hours ago, JezMM said:

Before Sonic Generations, no-one really broke Sonic up into sections the way we have since.  With the exception of a few unhealthily-obsessive fans, no-one had any trouble saying that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic were the same character just rendered in different art styles.  When Generations plonked them next to each other, that reality became a bigger leap to stomach (as evidenced by how many people have questioned how Classic Sonic could possibly "grow up" into Modern Sonic, when these design differences - and even the jokey moments were the in-game characters acknowledge them - are just for our benefit as an audience, and not really "canon" in any tangible way).

I do think the seeds were planted with the critical fan backlash to Sonic 4. Our internets were flooded with the differences between Genesis era Sonic and Sonic 4, in both gameplay AND appearance.

I agree with the people who say that the character and appearance of "Classic Sonic" was invented for Generations and has only a passing resemblance to the way Sonic actually was in Genesis days. He is adorable, though!

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17 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

It also makes me think we need a Dreamcast split, if Sonic Team continues acting like this towards their established characters and world. There can be a Modern world with all the Yacker crap Sonic Team wants, and a Dreamcast world for the fans of those games.

The thing with that is, whilst the classic universe is getting more plot through Mania, Encore Mode and possibly more games after that, the Adventure games... aren't. There's never gonna be an Adventure 3, so dividing it off into it's own universe just because a section of fans doesn't wanna dare acknowledge anything post-Shadow happened seems utterly pointless. 

Would a more consistent modern lore that remembers earlier games be great? Absolutely, yeah. But chopping up the already-somewhat-divided canon into even more separate chunks seems like it'd just cause more problems than anything honestly.

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2 hours ago, Almar said:

Adventure One has Eggman's Classic design show up in Hedgehog Hammer and even had Classic models for the characters during development. Its plot was more or less an exploring of tangents brought up in Sonic 3's lore. The seperation between Classic and Modern was blurrier (if even there to begin with) back then than now.

1

There's also the classic designs used in Casinopolis.

320px-SonicAdventure_PinballJP.png

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Being the outlier that I am I actually see potential in the split.

Now before I go into why let me just say that there should not be one. I remember reading in a magazine somewhere when Iizuka was first assigned head of Sonic Team that supposedly one of his responsibilities was to unify the brand image. In that time though he has instead allowed Boom! to come into being, split the Oshima and Uekawa art into two separate universes, and mostly continue to let the Archie Comics possess an identity that was only reminiscent of the games at best. In short, unifying the brand image was something that Iizuka never accomplished and has instead simply allowed, even encouraged, the brand division he was supposed to erradicate.

 

Now the reason that I see potential in the split is on the experimental side of things. As some of the characters have had massive changes at the division point of the changes or were barely utilized before that point the division allows creators to play around in ways they may not have been able to otherwise. For example take the character Mighty. Though he is currently considered "Classic Locked" there is already some discontent involving his return in Mania due to lacking his Wall Kick. If one were to work with the separation it could be possible to experiment with a skill set in one while staying more truthful in another. Even the difference in appearance becomes useful as it allows one to have different expectations for each character based on their appearance.

 

Addressing the OP's concerns I fully understand them. A division in gameplay to match the aesthetics seems unnecessary and uncalled. Considering the near universal praise for the Original Gameplay formula it seems only obvious to keep gameplay related. As for 2D gameplay, considering how different the Rush games are though I wouldn't worry about it being locked to one side of the or the other. Now if one wants to have the modern characters playing in a near perfect reproduction of the original formula I could see there being a problem, but considering most people don't want anything simpler than Adv.1 for their controls I don't see a problem their either since the original formula is much simpler. 

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19 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

[...] since I don't think that a franchise populated by cartoony looking characters should ever take itself too seriously. [...]

What's your opinion on Starfox then?

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2 hours ago, Korke said:

What's your opinion on Starfox then?

Considering Star Fox isn't exactly the most well-written, easy-to-take-seriously franchise around either, it's not that much of a trump card against "Sonic can't be serious coz cartoon animals."  Like... people make fun of Star Fox's attempts to be serious and emotional a lot actually.

I think the better example would be Zootopia, a film that absolutely was filled with cartoon animals and yet told a story heavy in emotion and mature themes of race and segregation.

Of course, stories of that nature kind of need the uninterrupted flow that film provides to provide nuancé and pacing that a level-based platforming adventure doesn't.  It's a tricky one.

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If Iizuka was really supposed to unify the brand then I suspect that the Two Worlds retcon and other mandates like Cream not fighting are late attempts to do just that. Hence the awkward insertions.

2 hours ago, Korke said:

What's your opinion on Starfox then?

The first Star Fox game has a secret level where you fight a giant slot machine.

 

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3 minutes ago, Almar said:

If Iizuka was really supposed to unify the brand then I suspect that the Two Worlds retcon and other mandates like Cream not fighting are late attempts to do just that. Hence the awkward insertions.

The first Star Fox game has a secret level where you fight a giant slot machine.

 

That matters about as much as the hidden Commander Keen dolls you shoot in Doom, the Babalities in Mortal Kombat, etc. 

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28 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

That matters about as much as the hidden Commander Keen dolls you shoot in Doom, the Babalities in Mortal Kombat, etc. 

I mean, Mortal Kombat was never really taken seriously. Kids were excited to see a guy's head get uppercutted off, but they weren't surprised to see that same guy alive in later matches.

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51 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

I mean, Mortal Kombat was never really taken seriously. Kids were excited to see a guy's head get uppercutted off, but they weren't surprised to see that same guy alive in later matches.

BaronGrackle, wow, I remember you from the old SEGA Forunm days when Sonic 4 was around. It's so crazy to see you again!

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On 4/28/2018 at 7:42 PM, Skull Leader said:

Just pretend that things like Shadow didn't exist (let's be honest, this character was more product of that time when anime was starting to become mainstream than something that belonged to how the franchise originally was like) in the same way Sonic Team no longer wants to have anything to do with characters like Eggman Nega...

Just want to say that if we’re being honest about this specific part, you can’t pretend Shadow doesn’t exist anywhere near the extent that Sonic Team no longer wants anything to do with characters like Nega. They’re no where near comparable given Shadow’s still massively large popularity that’s on par with that of the classic cast, even despite his game reducing said popularity.

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At the moment, the only thing I worry about when it comes to this Classic and Modern split is how the events that transpired before the first Adventure are going to be embellished or explained. The obvious answer is that it's never going to be explained and they have no intention to despite weirdly thinking the lore was important enough to pay attention to in order to make this split in the first place but whatever. Their decisions have always been weird and random. 

Personally, I'd rather just think it happened relatively the same way but with younger versions of their Modern designs. If I'm being honest, Classic Sonic being a younger version of Sonic instead of just a different design for Sonic never rubbed me the right way. I kind of like the idea of Baby Green-Eyed Sonic you know? 

I'll go ahead and stick to my headcanon that this is how it is now until Iizuka decides to drop another anvil on my head and reveal something else that makes things more confusing for no reason. 

This is the only franchise I know that would skip over the obvious explanation of "Humans and Anthros co-exist and the Classic games happened in the past" in favor of "Classic Sonic's from another dimension and also the games where there were humans also took place in another dimension, therefore making invisible dimension hopping within the narrative a thing that totally happened but not something we got to see. Also, the plot to Generations is no longer a concept that can happen but still DID happen because Sonic remembers Classic Sonic in Forces. So... was the Time Eater actually a Dimension Eater? H-Hello...?"


It also figures that the one character who would be better served actually being from another dimension, Eggman Nega, is the one who's from the fucking future now. 

And despite all this, I still bet that someone like Ian Flynn or whoever could still find a way to fix this shit.

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5 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

That matters about as much as the hidden Commander Keen dolls you shoot in Doom, the Babalities in Mortal Kombat, etc. 

You'd have a point if Star Fox was meant to be otherwise serious business. But it wasn't and neither was 64. This is more obvious when you look at the comics in the Keibunsha guide.

42 minutes ago, Cuz said:

"You're future is gonna be great!" is now a bigger anachronism then Generations paper thin plot has any right to have.

His Japanese dialogue speaks of Classic as his past version too so it's obvious they didn't come up with the split until after Generations.

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13 minutes ago, Almar said:

You'd have a point if Star Fox was meant to be otherwise serious business. But it wasn't and neither was 64. This is more obvious when you look at the comics in the Keibunsha guide.

Oh well, I guess Doom and MK weren’t the best choices... 

 

 

“RIP AND TEAR!”

 

Have you even read the official Doom comic? It’s silly as fuck. Doom wasn’t meant to be serious business either... “You have big guts!” “Chainsaw! The great communicator!”  Same applies to Mortal Kombat, which wasn’t serious until Deadly Alliance.

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I think there is a confusion towards what "serious" means. It doesn't mean over-edge or gritty violence.

People are mistaken to associate the lack of it to the classic games. S3&K did deliver it - even with the lack of resources from the time, it gave a narrative and story that did make me want to stay and play, not only because of the gameplay itself, but also I wanted to know what would happen next. A doomsday weapon revealed? Knuckles betrayed? I want to know more.

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Honestly, with all of this, part of me can't help but keep wondering if Iizuka is pulling this out because the recent overshadowing of Forces by Mania has him on the defensive to the point of "Well that's not the REAL Sonic in Mania, so it doesn't count anyways".Pride is a sticky thing after all.

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I belong to those who really dislikes the idea of the classic games and the modern games occuring in different dimensions. I have always assumed (as did EVERYBODY else) that all of the main series Sonic games takes place within the same universe despite the design shift that happened in SA1. Why Sonic and the other characters looked different in the pre-Adventure games than the post-Adventure games never needed explaining; it's just different artstyles.

Just think if the characters in Marvel comics shifted between dimensions whenever their artsyle changed...

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