could forces be fixed like mania?

[Meta77]

Seeing mania plus has me looking forward to playing mania few more times but upon this I wondered could Sega fix forces like this or does Sega of Japan pretty much toss one dlc pack for modern gsmes and call it a day. I'm looking at you casino map.  but serious question are 3d gsmes fixable or once they ship is that it?

[Muscles Maximum]

Mania wasn't in need of much "fixing" in the first place.

[Meta77]

It was but the fact remains they did and they made a good game even better with things dropped from the first release

[Tracker_TD]

Forces' issues are very much ingrained into its core design philosophy, as well as areas such as how Hedgehog Engine 2 streams levels (i.e. it doesn't) and and the control system being based on LWs. They might as well just make a new game. 

[Diogenes]

Mania is an already good game that's getting some mild fixes and some extra content.

Forces is a dumpster fire. Its flaws run straight to its very core; the only "fix" is to make an entirely separate game.

Sometimes you've just got to take the loss and move on to try better next time.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Yeah, Mania isn't fixed, just improved. Plus trying to save Forces if few months too late.

But if Sega got really obsessed with updating Forces? Well, they could add Chaos/Shadow boss battles, maybe fix controls, add level or two. Maybe even some kind of HUB (where you can talk to Resistance, to flesh out the story, buy exclusive gear for rings, get tips where red rings are, etc).

All of that could improve the game. If they made the game around 5-6 hours long, I think it would be around Heroes and Lost World level of popularity. Some fans could even love it. But "objectively" at the core it still would be inferior to Generations, Unleashed (Sonic part) or Colors.

[Meta77]

Sadly I don't think modern sonic will ever shine again. I feel as if Sega just care. He'll isn't pso2 the main thing keeping the jp branch afloat. It be nice to see them actually support a 3d title fully . I did hope force could be fixed but if it's that integrated I guess it can't be patched

[Ashwalking Bat]

2 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Sadly I don't think modern sonic will ever shine again. I feel as if Sega just care. He'll isn't pso2 the main thing keeping the jp branch afloat. It be nice to see them actually support a 3d title fully . I did hope force could be fixed but if it's that interested I guess it can't be patched

Yeah. When a game is flawed at it's core, like Forces. You really cannot fix that without dismantling the game. Basically, you'd be wasting your time. The only fix for Forces is to let it die out and make something new. Though new 'Modern' Sonic games have gotten a very bad rep, due to direction choices by Sonic Team. I'll admit that not all that have been made by them are inherently bad and do have potential to go places. But I honestly don't think Sonic Team sees that potential when they make decent Sonic titles.

[Gresh11990]

You can’t fix perfection.

[Solister]

Possibly not, just look at Sonic Boom.

They released a patch for better graphics and fix the Knuckles' infinite jump bug, but everyone still hate it.

From what I've read, it seems Sonic Forces has passed trough some great problems during the development, which caused changes of the plot, direction of the development and some minor stuff. For me, it easily seems they released a "beta" game for the public, only to say Sonic won a 25 years commemorative 3D Game. I certainly would enjoy a new 3D Sonic game using this newer version of Hedgehog Engine, but with a better designed game. However, I think we might face some time development troubles, I mean, we can't await good games to be released in every Sonic birthday (At least, at every 5 years special), Specially when Sonic Forces went out one year after the 25th birthday. But actually, good games are taking even more time than only 5 years. Just look at Sonic Forces which took 4 years of development and became what we see today, and even Generation (Which, for actual gaming standards, is a quite old game), started to being developed even before Colors (Which was released one year earlier).

[Iko]

You can't fix it completely, but at least if they fix the controls and character movements, the game could become more enjoyable.

I disagree with people who call it a total disaster, I think the game would be just as good as the other boost games if it had no controls issue (I consider all the boost games to be enjoyable but mediocre), though the game is full of flaws, even in the story... I mean, Silver.

Silver is a big wasted opportunity.

• he comes from the future, travels to the past to save the future
• he has mind-based powers
• the Phantom Ruby involves a mind-based power

1+1=2, Silver came back from the future because he has mind-based powers, he's the only one who can fight the power of the Phantom Ruby (maybe the whole point of him having those powers in the future is as a way to fight the Ruby in the first place, this would have been an interesting background for him); the perfect chance for him to shine and play a major role in the story of the game without feeling out of place or bland. Nope.

You can't change the plot of the game with a patch, the damage is done.

[Plasme]

Mania isn't getting fixed, it's just getting some minor improvements and DLC.

For a game to be fixed, it has to have something worth saving. Rome 2 Total War was a good example of this, it did have great concepts and potential, but was a mess with glitches and bugs. Even still, games like that have design issues even when they are rebranded. 

Forces has no potential, at best it's just a dumbed down version of Generations. And while I do like Generations, even that has aged in recent years, especially with Mania's quality. 

The best path forward is to make something entirely new.

[Ashwalking Bat]

18 minutes ago, Iko said:

You can't fix it completely, but at least if they fix the controls and character movements, the game could become more enjoyable.

I disagree with people who call it a total disaster, I think the game would be just as good as the other boost games if it had no controls issue (I consider all the boost games tobe enjoyable but mediocre), though the game is full of flaws, even in the story... I mean, Silver.

Silver is a big wasted opportunity.

• he comes from the future, travels to the past to save the future
• he has mind-based powers
• the Phantom Ruby involves a mind-based power

1+1=2, Silver came back from the future because he has mind-control powers, he's the only one who can fight the power of the Phantom Ruby (maybe the whole point of him having those powers in the future is as a way to fight the Ruby in the first place, this would have been an interesting background for him); the perfect chance for him to shine and play a major role in the story of the game without feeling out of place or bland. Nope.

From what Solister said, it seems that Forces had issues from the start while in development. So it came out similarly to the way 06 came out, being a unfinished product. At least in some sense. So yeah, it's pretty terrible if you think of it that way. And with that being the case. Tweaking the controls wouldn't do much for the enjoyablity of it, other than make it better to play.

However, I do agree with the missed opportunity that they could of had with Silver. Whether Silver originally was going to have a purpose in the game or not, is still up in the air. Though I'd like to think they had something planned for him that was scrapped due to the aforementioned development issues. Either way, that would of been great to see Silver help our your character with dealing with Infinite, than the Deus X Machina stuff they ended up using to make your character untouchable.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Ashwalking Bat

[Fletch]

I don't think it could be "fixed" like Mania, especially since the fixes Mania is receiving through Plus are minor things that can be seen as mostly tweaks. 

There's a lot that's wrong with Forces from controls, story, and even level design. It would be better to make an entirely new game instead of trying to go back to Forces and mess with it.

[Meta77]

Never said mania was broken. Simply it's getting several twiks and additions to dropped features and then some.  though it seems it's not possible to fix forces

[Ashwalking Bat]

5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Never said mania was broken. Simply it's getting several twiks and additions to dropped features and then some.

Though you did word it like Mania was being fixed in your OP, while mentioning if Forces could be fixed. So yeah, it came off like you were saying that Mania was broken. Even if that wasn't the intention.

[Meta77]

Yea my wording is never the best. It makes me fear Sega could even screw up the choa garden going forward of it ever came back.

[Ashwalking Bat]

Eh. I think we are past that time in the life of Modern Sonic where the chao garden is relevant. Especially since Sonic X doesn't really exist all that much anymore here in the USA outside the old seasons that did get aired here. I really think that Sonic Team will not ever touch the chao garden stuff at all. Though I'd be surprised if Sonic Team proved me wrong.

[Meta77]

I guess aftee 28 years it's just hard to see one aspect of sonic treated so poorly. It really hurts.

[SpongicX]

Hopefully, the least they can do is touch up the Switch version, since that was a rushed port. 

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

Mania isn't getting fixed, it's just getting some minor improvements and DLC.

For a game to be fixed, it has to have something worth saving. Rome 2 Total War was a good example of this, it did have great concepts and potential, but was a mess with glitches and bugs. Even still, games like that have design issues even when they are rebranded. 

Forces has no potential, at best it's just a dumbed down version of Generations. And while I do like Generations, even that has aged in recent years, especially with Mania's quality. 

The best path forward is to make something entirely new.

Actually, it is getting fixed, like it or not, the game did have some glitches, most notably in Lava Reef Act II.

Regardless, it's getting fixed, so it doesn't matter. 

[Mr Loopone]

Mania wasn't really fixed in a typical sense, more like the first version is a beta (or like Sonic 2 and 3, rushed games but still ended up mostly fine with some issues) while Plus is the final version. You can't fix a good game, only make it better. What bugs and missing bits of the game could have and from the sounds of things have improved, it just needed some extra polish was the original version. Plus it would cost less to fix the bugs due to the design of the game, mostly from programming.

For Forces the problem is that its really too deep to be fixed. It sounds like a production type of problem like something happened to the game and what we got might have not be the game that the developers intended to do. Only things Forces can be fixed are from a technical point of view likes crashes or performance issues but that might not be enough. Would fixing the physics help? Maybe a little and have a better controlled game but then you still have the storyline, the level design and those can't easily get fixed. Level design would require someone else and again would require testing, lots of testing and programming. Maybe get the graphic artist to make some new textures. The storyline would have to get the writer or someone else to rewrite then re-voice the segments both in Japanese and in English. It would cost a lot lot more to fix the problems that you might as well make a new game like what happened to Final Fantasy XIV.

[Meta77]

27 minutes ago, King Koopone said:

Mania wasn't really fixed in a typical sense, more like the first version is a beta (or like Sonic 2 and 3, rushed games but still ended up mostly fine with some issues) while Plus is the final version. You can't fix a good game, only make it better. What bugs and missing bits of the game could have and from the sounds of things have improved, it just needed some extra polish was the original version. Plus it would cost less to fix the bugs due to the design of the game, mostly from programming.

For Forces the problem is that its really too deep to be fixed. It sounds like a production type of problem like something happened to the game and what we got might have not be the game that the developers intended to do. Only things Forces can be fixed are from a technical point of view likes crashes or performance issues but that might not be enough. Would fixing the physics help? Maybe a little and have a better controlled game but then you still have the storyline, the level design and those can't easily get fixed. Level design would require someone else and again would require testing, lots of testing and programming. Maybe get the graphic artist to make some new textures. The storyline would have to get the writer or someone else to rewrite then re-voice the segments both in Japanese and in English. It would cost a lot lot more to fix the problems that you might as well make a new game like what happened to Final Fantasy XIV.

Ah yes the great bahamet world wipe

[Nicky Nicardo]

I think it could be fixed, sure.

 

I'd love it if they released some sort of DLC or patch that tweaked the controls, added more cutscenes, and maybe even lengthened the levels somehow.

 

Maybe something similar to the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut. I'd totally be down to get my hands on something comparable for Forces.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, Solister said:

Possibly not, just look at Sonic Boom.

They released a patch for better graphics and fix the Knuckles' infinite jump bug, but everyone still hate it.

 

The Boom patch took  a Dumpster Inferno and turned it into a regular Dumpster Fire. No one will argue that the patch succeeded to make the game "better" but at the end of the day, what was the point? Its still burning trash. On some level, you can wrap as many bandages as you want around a dead guy, but he's not going to suddenly come back to life no matter how good a job you do. He's still dead. You can't fix that without an act of God.

 

Forces is very much in that same boat. Like everyone has been saying, the problems with that game stem from the core design choices. The way the modern sections were programmed to hold your hand and simplify the twitch reaction Boost Formula. The streamlined moveset, the lack of real resistance to the Avatars grossly overpowered Wispon's -- there really isn't much a patch or addition can do to fix that. They could easily throw in more content, but you run back into the dead guy formula. Whats the point? More of the same isn't helping here. It needs a different direction - *cough*less colors more unleashed *cough* ad that's only something that can be done by starting anew from the ground up.

[Soniman]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Mania is an already good game that's getting some mild fixes and some extra content.

Forces is a dumpster fire. Its flaws run straight to its very core; the only "fix" is to make an entirely separate game.

Sometimes you've just got to take the loss and move on to try better next time.

This, no point in salvaging a turd, I rather Sonic Team move on to the next trainwreck then drag this one out