could forces be fixed like mania?

[Osmium]

Fix means to repair. Forces is intrinsically in a state of disrepair; at least to a point where the act of "fixing" doesn't make much sense outside of the most superficial changes. This is exactly the conversation that occasionally arises of "fixing Sonic '06" and just like there, the costs greatly outweigh the benefits. To "fix" either of these games would be to change them so radically they could be considered different products altogether. 

So no. And the analogy to Mania Plus is flawed here. Mania Plus is an "extension" of Mania, with some tweaks and several added features. Any sort of fixing to Forces in the granted expected way of a rise of quality like I said would be to intrinsically change the product. It's like comparing two LEGO towers where one has some bricks added to the top and an adjacent one where one of the bottom bricks is removed; the entire tower collapses and is built in a completely different reconfiguration as a result of the base being changed.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm going to spare the semantics of 'fixed' as it's already been stated abundantly. Anyway, you could always add some bugfixes here and there or optimize the game so it runs a little better, but I don't think that'll do much to significantly improve the experience. This isn't the same as extra content though, which it technically already has in the form of Episode Shadow. They could add more stuff with a price tag, I suppose. More bonus stages, playable characters, Avatar clothes, etc. I'm sure there are some people who'd be down for it. 

[SaturnWolf]

Mania was just improved, as without the patch and Plus it's still a great, solid, fun game with some minor  hiccups. 

Forces' problems weren't that it was buggy or whatever, the issues were much more deeply rooted into factors like the level design, controls, mechanics and story. You'd need a pretty massive patch to "fix" that, and at that point you may as well just make an entirely different game.

[Korke]

This is sounding pretty similar to the "how 2 fix 06" of the old times. No, it can't be fixed. What can be done is to move on and gather the few things that did work.

Which I'd say, was the HE2. The only thing that got me impressed on the game was the visuals and how the lighting was handled by the engine.

At least the next game won't have to halt its development for it, since we already know since before the release that most of the time spent for Forces dev was exclusively for that engine.

[FlameStream]

It's much more expensive to add anything in 3-D games. Additionally, were it not due to greenlight of expansion work, you would not have any of those additions you think perceive as fixes.

[Meta77]

Hmm my wording seems to have caused a lot of confusion. I never meant mania was broken, but how months after releases it get a newer version fixing a few glitches and adding a ton of extra features to dig into. Forces got a super sonic dlc and 3 short levels for episode shadow.

[Blacklightning]

There's an important distinction to be made here that I don't think anyone's made yet. Yes, Mania was already a good game in the first place, that goes without saying - but what's more relevant here is that what flaws the Plus expansion did fix are largely oversights. A game like Forces is built around its flaws. It's easy to say, for example, that the physics and inertia that perpetuates the whole game could be changed to something more consistent and fun to use, but given that the level design is built around what it is currently there's a very good chance you'd have to update every level in the game to fit it. And once you do that, you have to consider what else that breaks. Will Avatar grapples still look and act too janky by comparison, and will the arcs you leave from it need to be recalculated? Will the arcs from springs need to be recalculated, or the entire mechanics of springs overhauled completely? Will all those boost pads still be necessary to make it through even the most basic of architecture, and will boost pad mechanics need to be reworked too?

This practice of building flawed mechanics to compensate for other flawed mechanics creates a cascading effect once you try pulling them apart and fixing them, an effect most people have oversimplified as "basically building a completely new fucking game". It isn't exactly a wrong assessment of Forces, but it glosses over the factors that contribute up to that point. There's one thing about the tl;dr version that rings absolutely true, though - this is not the kind of thing you can fix with a simple patch or post-release update. The problems are ingrained that deep.

[Nicky Nicardo]

Personally, I'd be happy with a patch that tweaked the controls and added more story cutscenes. Or even something similar to the Shadow DLC but with a LOT more content than 3 levels - something like a prequel story for the Avatar complete with levels and stuff that explained what they did when Eggman started taking over. That would make me very happy.

[Dr. Detective]

Instead of the cover art it got, Forces might as well have come in a box that had a plain white sheet with "A Game" written in black letters on the front. 

A four year wait for a game centered on the highly promising premise of Dr. Eggman having finally taken over the world turning out like this has to be the biggest red flag that something rotted and needs to be thrown out somewhere in the offices of Sonic Team. 

The only way to "fix" a game like this would be to completely overhaul it in my opinion. 

Forces doesn't need a remastering to be good. It needs a full blown remake. Preferably, this time, with a concerted effort to live up to all the promise it's premise had instead of just making "A Game".

"A Game" is bland and it doesn't stay crunchy in milk.  

[Meta77]

So basically the game is that deeply flawed and the fact it is this way is sad. Which leads to m next question.  does Sega not test this stuff and if not why.  I mean it seems a given even if you like the game we can all admit they games are buggy. Do they just say ok it's fine no need to test it and out the door?

[Muscles Maximum]

Forces isn't buggy or anything. Just horribly designed.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Yeah Forces can't be fixed much. As many have said it is build wrong down to it's core. Sure Sonic Team could make it tiny bit better by adding back in a drift move and removing little of the automation in areas it won't break anything. Toss in at least a simple Chaos & Shadow DLC boss fight in order to remove the false advertisement stigma... But even with all of that stuff it won't help tons overall as there is only so much they can change without remaking the whole game. The story to me was even more offensively terrible then the gameplay, and that is something they won't fix. On another note I wouldn't mind a playable Blaze DLC for Forces myself, it also would help explain what she was up to during the game... However many peps would be against it just so Blaze isn't associated with another bad Sonic game... which I can somewhat understand their view on that. Er ohwell.

[JezMM]

On 02/05/2018 at 5:26 AM, Meta77 said:

So basically the game is that deeply flawed and the fact it is this way is sad. Which leads to m next question.  does Sega not test this stuff and if not why.  I mean it seems a given even if you like the game we can all admit they games are buggy. Do they just say ok it's fine no need to test it and out the door?

This video is about "Why do buggy games get released?" but I think a lot of it could apply to the question "Why do games with deep game design flaws get released?"  Just mentally replace the context of "developers finding bugs in the game" with "developers finding that gameplay elements they've designed to completion just aren't all that fun in the game".

Like, of course they tested it, but they also have a schedule to keep to and money to make.  The sad thing for us fans is that Sonic IS a franchise that has a lot of inherent brand appeal - i.e. SEGA can actually bank on the fact that people will buy it "because it's Sonic".  Less discerning customers like parents with young kids will just buy it because it's a new Sonic game, adult fans like me who are just desperate for a fix of that good good stuff Sonic Unleashed hooked me on back in 2008 will buy it because it is a game where I get to play as Sonic and jump on things.

Now that's not to say SEGA can just make bad games and no-one will care - there is a limit to how far they can push this safety net that Sonic built with the handful of high quality releases over the years.  But the fact is they do have this buffer where it is safe for them to say "okay, this one isn't that great, but it's too far along to start over without making any money on what we've done so far, we gotta finish it".  And in every game's development cycle, they are going to pass by a certain amount of work done on the game where - if the game isn't going great - finishing it anyway and trying to make some money off of it to fund the next attempt is their best option as a business.

 

So yeah, they absolutely tested it.  I mean if they didn't test it at all they wouldn't even be able to release it.  I actually think Sonic Forces is a fairly glitch-free game, I think I've encountered more glitches in Mania than Forces - certainly never had Forces crash on me 4 times.  But of course the issue there is "it's not glitchy, but at what cost?"  Probably half the reason it isn't as glitchy and unreliable to play as Unleashed is because the game is so scripted and lacking in freedom, there's very little opportunity for the player to create a situation that the developers hadn't accounted for when they created the game, so bug-fixing was much more doable.

 

One more possibility here is that games don't JUST get tested for bugs by professionals - they do also get tested by "civilians" so to speak - to get feedback from average players about how fun the game is etc.  It's entirely possible that adult players DID feed back to them at this stage that they didn't like the game - it was too simple, it doesn't feel like the Sonic game they played as a kid - maybe there even were people in the testing who could fully appreciate exactly what it was lacking compared to beloved classic Sonic gameplay.

But this testing would also involve kids getting to play the game - maybe those kids were less discerning - there's certainly a bunch of praise for lower quality Sonic games over the years from kids.  Maybe younger testers loved what they played of Forces and SEGA made a decision: "Okay, the kids loved it overall, the adult fans aren't quite as happy so that isn't perfect but we don't have the time and money to rework the entire game for their tastes - let's settle on finishing what we've got so far with the confidence that kids'll still probably like it, they're our target audience this time".

[A person, that exists]

Eh, really, Forces could be fixed quite easily. Just fix the level design, so it would actually suit the gameplay style, maybe fix some collisions and add some Sonic Rush/Sonic Generations 3DS-esque boss battles with Shadow and Chaos. Concept-wise the game is fine for what it is, so, really, it's the stages that need fixing, not the story or the music.

Also, just on a personal note here, make episode Shadow longer. Like, at least 10+ levels. Also, make Null Space a full stage, instead of an opening to another Metropolis level.

[JezMM]

3 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

Eh, really, Forces could be fixed quite easily. Just fix the level design, so it would actually suit the gameplay style, maybe fix some collisions and add some Sonic Rush/Sonic Generations 3DS-esque boss battles with Shadow and Chaos. Concept-wise the game is fine for what it is, so, really, it's the stages that need fixing, not the story or the music.

Also, just on a personal note here, make episode Shadow longer. Like, at least 10+ levels. Also, make Null Space a full stage, instead of an opening to another Metropolis level.

I'm pretty sure any developer reading your post would shed a tear at your wild and reckless abandon of the intended usage of the word "easily".  Like what you just outlined would be a TON of work, and a really vague outline at that.

[A person, that exists]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

I'm pretty sure any developer reading your post would shed a tear at your wild and reckless abandon of the intended usage of the word "easily". 

Well, yes, that is a little overblown.

"Relatively easily" is the phrase I was looking for. I mean, making new levels and bosses is nowhere near as hard as making a new engine and reworking the core gameplay.

[SuaveKnux]

For a sequel what is there left to salvage from Forces? 

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, SuaveKnux said:

For a sequel what is there left to salvage from Forces? 

Sequel? Ha!

For any future game? Avatar may return, but I hope not soon. And Infinite may join Jet, Zavok, Chaos, and Nega to sorta-recurring-villains.

I don't want Wispons, stages aren't exactly memorable, story and resistance are finished, time will tell what will happen to Phantom Ruby.