Fan Attitudes to Eggman

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

As far as I'm concerned, the Eggman from Adventure is heavily based upon the Robotnik that was used in the American cartoons and merchandise. Because come to think about it, Eggman is hardly ever funny in the Adventure games aside from a few moments, while he's constantly ridiculous and silly in the classic games. 

Which is funny because the Robotnik in American cartoons was both goofy and silly a la AoStH, and deathly cruel and serious a la SatAM.

So that’s a very one-sided take on American Robotnik given how he wasn’t that consistent in portrayal.

[BaronGrackle]

9 hours ago, Plasme said:

To be fair, Sonic Adventure is almost nothing like the original games except for its music (and even that can be very different). The gameplay is completely different, the art style is far more realistic and the game's tone is far more serious and anime. I always saw Sonic Adventure has the hardest reboot the franchise has ever seen. And while I do really like Adventure, I think it's pretty self-evident that it was a huge step back from the original games.

See, I used to feel that way. But now I think Sonic Adventure 2 is the hard reboot that took Sonic into the bizarre new anime-land he was in during the early 2000s.

I see Sonic Adventure 1 as bridge between those two eras. From there I can look back and see familiar themes from the Genesis days, but I can also look forward and see newer developments that were just setting root.

[Diogenes]

From a modern perspective it's easy to look back at SA and see it as a bridge between two eras, and that's not necessarily wrong, but I can just as easily interpret it as them building a bridge halfway across a canyon that didn't need to be crossed in the first place.

I remember there was an interview about SA that mentioned that they approached the game's story as if it was an RPG; that's most obvious with things like the hub worlds (the "towns" compared to levels as "dungeons") and the NPCs, but I'm sure it affected the development and structure of the story as a whole. And I'm starting to wonder if that might be the root cause of a lot of the series' storytelling problems...I don't think any game has had as significant an effect on both what stories are told and how they go about telling them as SA, and regardless of how well or not SA itself worked out, having it set the standard for what a Sonic story is may have done a lot of damage.

[Wraith]

There's no root cause game to pin the blame on. Sonic has always been influenced by action anime as far back as when they called up Toei Animation to do the opening for Sonic CD. It's clear that that's what they had in mind for the series, to a degree. You can argue there was a moment where they went "too far" I guess, but to me it's all just Sonic team following what type of action cartoons were popular with children at the time anyway.

And I don't really see Sonic Adventure as a huge influence considering most of the games after it threw it's structure out the window aside from Sonic 06. Sonic Adventure 2 is  far bigger influence with it's linear, globe trotting narrative and level to level transition. Sonic Adventure 1 is practically the opposite: The tone is a lot lighter, you get intimate with one area, the game kind of has a slice of life feel reminiscent of older concept art where you get a glimpse into everyone's lives and hobbies, and the story is nonlinear, told depending on who you choose to play as at the time. The story structure of pretty much every single game after SA1 aside from06 and maybe Unleashed if you want to stretch it resembles linear games like SA2 and the classics.
 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I’m pretty sure the root of the series’ storytelling problems is just plain bad writing.

Not every game after SA1 worked with the same structure or standard it did, and they still had problems to this day. Lost Worlds, for instance, sure as hell doesn’t take any cues from SA1 or 2, and Forces turned every expectation (good and bad) on their heads.

So no, it’s mainly the people behind the games not being competent on their work.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I’m pretty sure the root of the series’ storytelling problems is just plain bad writing.

Not every game after SA1 worked with the same structure or standard it did, and they still had problems to this day. Lost Worlds, for instance, sure as hell doesn’t take any cues from SA1 or 2, and Forces turned every expectation (good and bad) on their heads.

So no, it’s mainly the people behind the games not being competent on their work.

This is a good point. Sonic Heroes came smack dab in the middle of Shadow's arc, but it feels nothing like the games before or after it.

[DabigRG]

27 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

This is a good point. Sonic Heroes came smack dab in the middle of Shadow's arc, but it feels nothing like the games before or after it.

Probably because it's been recently revealed that he and Omega weren't in the game in the early plans.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Probably because it's been recently revealed that he and Omega weren't in the game in the early plans.

Well, the tone of the game in general is a lot lighter and Saturday Morning than SA2 or Sonic 06.

A lot more "classic" in feel, including the villain that upstages Eggman being the return of Metal Sonic instead of an apocalyptic monster-deity.

[Skull Leader]

Eh, I think that from the very beginning Sonic was more of an amalgamation of western and Japanese pop culture. You had the cartoony designs that take inspiration from cartoons like Mickey Mouse or Felix the cat. A goofy villain that would not look out of place in a Looney Tunes styled show (heck, even that "Man of the Year" animated show felt like one of WB's cartoons from the 90's), a spacestation inspired by Star Wars, and the occasional tropes from Japanese media, ranging from the very character archetypes upon which the main cast is built upon, to having to go on adventures to collect seven magical stones much like in Dragon Ball, and like with Dragon Ball, the hero powering up with a change of hairdo and hair color.

Modern Sonic, particularly SA2 is where I felt they started to lean more to the anime side with things like characters that have tragic backstories and who are treated as being more depthful than the happy go-lucky ones, a plan to drop a space colony much like in Gundam (even Shadow's resemble the feet of the main mobile suits, lol) or trying to be more epic and serious when they tried to imitate Final Fantasy with 06.

Maybe this change, which I personally thing should not have been taken, was to attract kids in their more important market regions of the US and Europe, since it was during the 2000's that anime was becoming more mainstream and experienced a boom in exposure. Maybe making Sonic lean towards that was the way ST tried to get their attention. Strangely enough, this was also the time period when people started to come up with your typical fancharacters.

Similarly, if they went with the more comedic route with Boom, it was because that kind of show is what kids began to watch during this current decade. 

Short version of this: ST created Sonic to appeal to a wide audience by how it combined stuff from both sides of the Pacific, but afterwards it had to adapt (for better or for worse) to whatever kids were into in an attempt to remain relevant. It's very hard for a franchise to have a very well defined identity that can still draw in people without having to change with the rest. Not every franchise can be Mario, who stood their ground and played by it's own rules, not those that others were jumping into. 

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

A lot more "classic" in feel, including the villain that upstages Eggman being the return of Metal Sonic instead of an apocalyptic monster-deity.

And even that wasn't the case initially, as Metal was one of the characters on a proposed team--Team Plus, if you will.

2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

(heck, even that "Man of the Year" animated show felt like one of WB's cartoons from the 90's), 

, a plan to drop a space colony much like in Gundam (even Shadow's resemble the feet of the main mobile suits, lol)

 

Ch'yeah, it was straight Animaniacs, dude.

You know, I didn't watch much Gundam at all, but now I can't unsee that.

 

 

 

 

[Multikaris]

About the Six, I think the Olympics and Dash make it clear that they are more along the lines of silly, affable chump fodder akin to Waluigi and Nabbit rather than Cackletta (while silly, are genuinely bad guys Mario wouldn’t bother inviting to a party).  Notice how those darker villains from either franchise aren’t brought to participate. Whereas where Mephiles and Infinite participate it’s less like a party/sport game and more like a traditional game. 

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

About the Six, I think the Olympics and Dash make it clear that they are more along the lines of silly, affable chump fodder akin to Waluigi and Nabbit rather than Cackletta (while silly, are genuinely bad guys Mario wouldn’t bother inviting to a party).  Notice how those darker villains from either franchise aren’t brought to participate. Whereas where Mephiles and Infinite participate it’s less like a party/sport game and more like a traditional game. 

Well, except for Zavok. And even he made it in over, say, Zeena. Good

But then, I was and still am under the assumption(and hope) that the Deadly Six(moreso than Sonic Lost World itself) were meant to cater more to being manageable but distinctive villains that can easily recur.