Badniks in 3D

[MetalSkulkBane]

As often as people talk about improving Sonic in 3D I really hear suggestions what to do with enemies.

So far Sega used 3 strategies
1 2D section, which is cheating
2 Make combat-focused gameplay like Hereos, guns in Shadow, Shadow/Silver in 06, shooting in Adventure, Avatar in Forces, Werehog, Black Knight or Rise of Lyric. So far it never worked.
3 Just make enemies a fodder for your Homing/Boost attack. Which to be fair, works just fine. Anyone played Rayman Origins or Legends? Really fun fast-paced 2D platformers (very similar yet different to Sonic) and enemies are total joke.

Still, let's say we want something more. Any suggestions how to keep badniks a threat without making them a complete pace-breaker?

[JezMM]

I think badniks are more of a psychological issue than anything else.  Ultimately, everything in a platform game should serve the platforming - enemies are nothing more than hazards that can be disposed of (as oppose to being fixed and invincible, like a set of spikes).  If one can imagine designing hazards for 3D games, there's no reason some of them can't have their design be modified by having them be destructable or target Sonic directly etc.

I can't really see any reason why the badnik design of the 2D games can't be carried over into 3D as long as you adapt them with full consideration to the two challenges 3D brings to the table:

1. You can just walk around hazards

2. It's harder to telegraph hazards before they become a threat

They're a simple enemy, but a fairly okay example of this is the Crabmeat from Generations - problem 1 is solved by their projectiles being swapped out for homing missiles.  Problem 2 is solved through some good usage of animation - they do a noticable excited flip when they spot Sonic and become "active".  While, being the first stage, they're mostly boost fodder, in a boostless game they would give ample communication to the player that they're going to attack before you reach them.

I think a key factor in 3D is that you need to design enemies who can adapt to Sonic's position rather than being placed in a set position - assuming the game isn't narrow hallways anyway.  For example the forward-going shark-ish missle badniks from Hydrocity would need to spawn in to always be ahead of Sonic's current position when you enter their "area", so dodging/attacking them is the same experience no matter which angle you enter that area from.

Meanwhile... I've been playing fanfic game designer in my head and some enemies would work great in 3D anyway.  I was thinking of the new enemies from Titanic Monarch who encapsulate you in their targeting system unless you get out of range fast enough - these enemies would work great in a more fiddley 3D space where you're having to navigate back and forth while climbing up a tower for example, unable to outrun their range super easily.  As long as you made it so the targeting system visibly comes around you FROM a certain direction, the player would have enough knowledge to figure out where the enemy is and destroy them without it being so unfair they're sent on a wild goose chase trying to track down a particular point in 3D etc.

I do think it's okay to make some enemies fodder for homing attack/boost though.  Not everything needs to be a threat, sometimes it's fine to just let the player enjoy the feeling of bopping open robots - especially if it serves to setup more challenging variations of the same concept later (the typical example so far in the series has been homing attack chains containing electrified/spiky enemies, but I'd like to see the "choose your target carefully/wait for the right height to avoid a hazard" homing attack chain gameplay from Unleashed's extra acts be a mainstay - that game already pretty much pushed the concept to it's limit, but it's a fun concept that I'd like to enjoy some new variations of in a game with a more reliable control system).

This post is kind of just a mishmash of thoughts, I don't have a connected conclusion here lol.

[Diogenes]

I think the most important thing to keep in mind about enemies in Sonic games is that combat isn't the main focus of Sonic's gameplay; movement is. So instead of approaching enemy design with a focus on attacks (both the enemy's attacks and how Sonic attacks it), focus more on how it moves, how it takes up space, and how Sonic is meant to move in reaction to it.

For a simple example, consider the caterkiller:

It's a fairly simple enemy; vulnerable head, damaging body segments, it crawls around slowly and not much else. But consider how it's used, especially in that screenshot; while it's possible to jump over a caterkiller in most situations, it's a fairly long enemy, and if your jump comes up short you'll land on its spiky backside and take damage. In a tight space like the above shot, jumping is almost guaranteed to fail. But, its head is vulnerable, at ground level, and most likely pointed in your direction, making it a perfect target for a rolling attack. So even without complex attack patterns or finicky setups, caterkillers could be dangerous but solvable obstacles.

Now bringing things into 3D, the original caterkiller setup doesn't quite work. Low ceilings aren't really viable level design in 3D, and the extra dimension lets you easily swerve around them. So I suggest rotating them 90 degrees, so they move perpendicular to Sonic's direction. Now their long bodies make it difficult to run around them, encouraging players to jump instead. Instead of the head being vulnerable, it could be one or more body segments; put spikes on the top, glowing weak points on the sides, and let the players choose between jumping over it or trying to roll/slide through it. An alternate version could hop instead of crawl, encouraging the player to run through the arch it makes rather than jumping it. Similar thinking could turn other simple patterns into viable obstacles.

It's also worth considering consequences of being "hit" other than damage. Taking damage in a Sonic game feels really bad, not just because it brings you closer to death, but also because it breaks your momentum and flow and brings you more or less to a stop. This is one of the reason enemies are so harmless; when the only consequence is that painful, they have to limit how often it happens to prevent the game from feeling frustrating. There are plenty of ways that enemies could inconvenience the player instead of simply doing damage; small enemies or slime could stick to him and weigh him down for a bit, he could be frozen and left to slide around until he breaks out, fan enemies could blow him off course, enemies could lasso him and hold him back until he breaks their grip, just to name a few. A wider range of consequences makes for more varied gameplay and for enemies that can be threatening without being frustrating.

[Wraith]

One thing I liked that the Boost games did was that there were a few enemies that would keep pace with Sonic, so running past them wasn't really an option. 

The Boost games mostly had these enemies appear on the more fixed quick step sections, but I think they were in the right mindset. The very first change you'll notice about the goombas in Mario 64 is that when you walk past it it will try and chase you. Enemies need to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to do this in a way that isn't frustrating, but I think the "Hotaru" badniks in Mania that follow sonic around and take shots at him until he destroys them might be a good start. The player would have the decision of trying to ignore them and making progression a bit more difficult or stopping for a second to destroy them. If taking real damage from these enemies seems a bit too punishing or something, they could have the light flash blind or stun Sonic for a second instead.

I also think it would be neat if the "roller' badnik followed Sonic's movements like the shadow Mario clones from the Galaxy games.

[Milo]

11 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

3 Just make enemies a fodder for your Homing/Boost attack. Which to be fair, works just fine. Anyone played Rayman Origins or Legends? Really fun fast-paced 2D platformers (very similar yet different to Sonic) and enemies are total joke.

This comparison doesn't work because Rayman games are designed to be much harder than Sonic games. Enemies are usually pushovers, but the actual levels / platforming itself in Origins and Legends are more demanding for players to complete, and Rayman himself is actually as vulnerable as the enemies themselves are--unless you have a heart (serving as an equivalent of Sonic's shield), Rayman himself is practically a one-hit-point wonder. That's not really the case with Sonic games, with levels that are generally designed to not be outright hard and Sonic's ring system (you don't die as long as you hold one ring + rings everywhere in levels) giving the player a lot of chances to recover from injuries. I'd also say enemies merely existing as fodder for the HA/Boost makes them barely register as threats and also qualifies for bad platforming design in general; but this criticism applies more towards the mechanics in question, rather than the enemies themselves.

On another note; I'd also say the application of badniks in 3D Sonic games could stand to be expanded upon just a bit. Namely, I'm referring to incorporating enemies into the fabric of the levels themselves; rather than just their placement (and I'm not referring to absolutely shallow rubbish like HA chains when I say this). Though this is honestly a lack of substance that I'd say even extends towards the 2D Sonic games.

[Iko]

12 hours ago, Josh said:

One thing I liked that the Boost games did was that there were a few enemies that would keep pace with Sonic, so running past them wasn't really an option. 

The Boost games mostly had these enemies appear on the more fixed quick step sections, but I think they were in the right mindset. The very first change you'll notice about the goombas in Mario 64 is that when you walk past it it will try and chase you. Enemies need to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to do this in a way that isn't frustrating, but I think the "Hotaru" badniks in Mania that follow sonic around and take shots at him until he destroys them might be a good start. The player would have the decision of trying to ignore them and making progression a bit more difficult or stopping for a second to destroy them. If taking real damage from these enemies seems a bit too punishing or something, they could have the light flash blind or stun Sonic for a second instead.

I also think it would be neat if the "roller' badnik followed Sonic's movements like the shadow Mario clones from the Galaxy games.

I agree with this so much! Actually, time ago, in a different thread, I made a very similar suggestion.

Sonic runs fast, a single stationary badnik just doesn't work in 3D, because it's too small and you can dodge it easily; badniks need to have an AI and act according to Sonic's movements: not only it would make the game more challenging and engaging, it would also make the game's world feel more lively.

For example, think about a motobug: if you are slow, it runs in circle around you, then it stops for a while facing you, waits a little and then rams at you at full speed; if you are fast instead, it will keep your speed and run close to you (left side or right side, maybe random), while occasionally trying  to hit you with those blades on its arms. You can hit it by jumping on it while he's doing the attack (because he stops following your movements for a while), or trying to conduct it into a wall or an obstacle, abusing of the fact that he moves according to your position and speed.

Obviously, the camera system is a problem, you can't see the enemies who are attacking you from behind, so their behavior must be designed in a way that they don't do cheap attacks from blind points.