Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

Adventure 2 had an elaborate story, but that doesn't mean it was good.

Honestly, I tend to find critiques of SA2’s story sketchy given that they’re less about how SA2 was bad in its merits for a story than they are spiteful in hindsight towards it for the elements in it and the stuff that came after it.

And I say this in acknowledgement that it’s narrative does indeed have flaws.

[Mad Convoy]

2 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Not scripted but incredibly hard to control compared to SA1 or 2, it has unstable speed and turns very stiff.

The spindash in Lost World is kinda like a less overpowered version of the boost. If you're using it exactly like SA1/SA2's spindash, you're using it wrong. Not to say that that would be a criticism on you-- Sonic Lost World is utterly awful at explaining how to actually play it, so I wouldn't blame you for sticking to what you're familiar with.

But anyway, the speed is actually remarkably consistent when you pull off the indefinite spindash (which, at least on the Wii U version, you do by charging up a regular spindash with the ZR button and releasing it, and then quickly pressing and holding the ZR button for as long as it makes sense to. The timing on that second ZR button press is kinda tricky, but once you practice a few times, you'll most likely have the hang of it.). In short, Sonic accelerates to roughly the speed a boost gave him in Colors and stays there until something stops him. Unless he happens to reach terrain with high friction anyway, which just slows him down a lot-- but even that is pretty obviously indicated by the terrain's appearance so its not hard to avoid it or lay off the spindash for a bit. And its turning is stiff because its not designed for turning on one spindash. You're supposed to use it to defeat enemies that aren't equipped to counter it, find and access hidden paths, and get good times if you care about that kind of thing. However, Sonic's pretty good at braking with the spindash without getting into Sonic 4 "stops on a dime every time" territory, and there's nothing stopping you from charging up another one immediately afterwards then angling it in whatever direction you'd like to turn. Like basically everything Sonic Lost World, you have to know how to utilize Sonic's full capabilities well to have a lot of fun with the spindash, which in turn takes a ton of practice and patience (because unless you know Lost World really really well, you will make mistakes and fail. Many times.).

And that's part of why Lost World is harder to sell to people than the Boost games, everybody! But in all seriously, from my perspective, Lost World's spindash's problems lay not so much in being hard to control or poorly designed per say, but in the spindash's mechanics being poorly explained while also being different from how previous 3D Sonic games have handled the spindash and demanding more precision in general than most Sonic games do. I've devoted a lot of time to getting to know Lost World, and I don't have any issues with those things because I've learned how to use Sonic's moveset decently well. And before you say that its my skills that are simply allowing me to mitigate control issuess with Lost World-- well one, I goddamn suck at video games so I'd like to ask where those gaming skills are as I don't see a whole lot of mine laying around at the moment, and two, poorly designed controls can still make themselves evident even when handled by skilled, experienced players. I can dig up a longplay on Youtube of Sonic 06 in its entirety from a friend of mine, if you'd like some evidence of what I mean.

-------

As for the rest, honestly, tone is only as good as the writing that backs it. So I'd prefer to judge Sonic stories based on their merits as opposed to how close they get to what tone I prefer. I do have my biases and preferences, that's only natural, but I know I'm not owed anything from anybody nor are my ideas and wants necessarily the best for Sonic right now or in the future. Dark, light, somewhere in between-- doesn't matter, because if reasonably good writing happens, I can at least respect the quality of the writing even if its not necessarily my cup of tea. And we don't need yet another timeline split or branch for it to happen either-- if anything that has a high risk of overcomplicating things and recklessly alienating people.

[Wraith]

Yuji Naka may have "wanted" Sonic to be a certain way some 20 years ago, but the fact is, he left the series in 2006. His thoughts on Sonic have probably shifted since then and even if they did they're essentially meaningless since he's not in charge of the series anymore. The intention to "soften Sonic up" was imo deliberate and probably in motion before Naka left considering how far in advance these things have to be in the works. Sonic has been through a lot of changes because, believe it or not, Naka isn't his only father. A lot of people work on a given series and they're all gonna have their own take. Even with a franchise that's largely an exception to a lot of this stuff like Mario is due to the same person working on the franchise all it's life and being unwavering in his design principles for better, or for worse.

A specific IP is allowed to be dynamic in the variety of tones it explores. It's...normal, really, and the sign of a good, flexible IP. Compared the moodier Rayman 2 with the preppy, goofy Rayman Origins, or Ratchet in the PS2 days to the shift to a lighter tone in the later ones. It comes with the fact that the people making these series are evolving and ever changing, along with the world outside of it. 

Sonic CD's promotional art and overall vibe were a lot more moody and serious than Sonic Mania, which is a lot more on the light hearted and fun side. You can even see this in each game's animated intro. Sonic CD is driven by urgency, stunts and stakes while Sonic Mania is a lot sillier, not afraid to show Sonic fumble around a bit, pal around with his friends and...smile. It's official art and animations are often simple and cutesy and even the sprites in game are a lot more expressive than they usually are. 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Were either of these games bad or not Sonic games for what they were trying to do? Not really. They're just two different expressions. 

Now extend that across the entire series and now you know why I don't care much about the tone thing anymore, as long as it's done well and leans into the series's strengths.

Sonic's character design isn't suited to realistic violence and clashes with realistic graphics, but he's a very strong personality and it's enjoyable watching him overcome what seems impossible. You have to actually have it in you to make it seem impossible though. Some of the character's coolest moments are action scenes where he's in high stakes situations, and an actual story, characters and stakes worth caring about would only heighten those situations when they finally come to pass. This is basic storytelling 101.

He's a mobile and expressive character so he's not suited to sitting around and telling jokes. Take advantage of this character design and do more slapstick. The funniest Sonic thing is Night of the Werehog and NOBODY talks in that shit. There are a lot of characters so if  you're going to do comedy you might as well use their personalities and different quirks as a strength and have them bounce off of eachother. The same two characters standing around and talking is not going to work no matter how good of a writer you are.

This is the most roundabout of roundabout ways for me to say the tone doesn't matter that much and you guys are too focused on it again. There are fundamental problems with how Sonic approaches things that need to be called out first, and after that, the "tone" discussion is a matter of fucking preference. Even if we go with the "get with the times" idea there's still darker animated movies and action shonen aimed at children, so it's not clear cut either way. It's also possible for a series to dip into both ends of the pool as I just described.
 

[Natie]

Sonic being cute and serious is what makes his character and design so interesting. Classic sonic's personality always came off like he was trying to reject his cute appearance, like, on an island full of adorable cartoon animals he's the rebellious, aloof, punk-y one that wants to be a hero. Contradiction is a great way to make characters feel more human.

[GentlemanX]

My view is that Modern Sonic's personality is largely the same now as it was in 1998 and not much has changed apart from giving him quirkier dialogue - which honestly his voice in Colors and Lost World resembles more what we'd see in AOSTH and SatAM. I think SA1/2, Unleashed, Forces, the Storybook games, and Sonic X have my preferred version of Sonic in this free spirit that just seeks adventure. For all the problems in Forces, I think they got Sonic's personality down pat as a descent compromise between how he's always been portrayed in the games prior to 2010 and the "dubisms" for lack of a better word that Pontaff has brought to the character.

As for his design, I think Classic and Modern can both accomplish the preferred attitude I described above, it just depends on how they're utilized. I can see where Naka was coming from - Sonic's design circa 1995-1997 was getting a little too pre-school looking judging by his artwork for say Sonic 3D and Sonic R. I think... erm, "Modern" Classic Sonic balances things out well, especially post Mania. Hesse has firmly established the emotional range of the character in Mania and Adventures, allowing both Sonics to embody the "cool attitude" the character was originally conceived with in mind.

[WakanoBaka]

I find this ironic consider N.Oshima didn't even like the idea of a cutesy Sonic also.

 

As for Modern Sonic...there are people out there that still see Sonic as cute? C'mon now, the dude's 15.lol

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And Mickey Mouse is an adult. Doesn’t stop him from being labeled cute...

[WakanoBaka]

Really? Even though I never saw Mickey as cute imo, I really don't quite get the reason some ppl would. I get that they are woodland creatures and such, but I try to imagine them as if they are real. Yes...a 4 foot hedgehog that is blue and has fine toned legs.

But as the homie said

2 hours ago, Natie said:

Sonic being cute and serious is what makes his character and design so interesting. Classic sonic's personality always came off like he was trying to reject his cute appearance, like, on an island full of adorable cartoon animals he's the rebellious, aloof, punk-y one that wants to be a hero. Contradiction is a great way to make characters feel more human.

I guess it's in an ironic sense.

But if you ask me, characters like Tails and classic Amy are aimed more in the cute direction.

[StaticMania]

35 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Really? Even though I never saw Mickey as cute imo, I really don't quite get the reason some ppl would.

They are designed cute, then they are such...

Seeing them as "real" is unrelated to that...

People can see a person at any age cute...so that actually doesn't matter.

[Fire-N-Space]

Amy has all the cuteness the games will ever need anyway but its to bad he quit after Sonic 1 he's the one who made Amy, Sonic, and Eggman after all.   

[WakanoBaka]

30 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

They are designed cute, then they are such...

I'm pretty sure they were designed 'cartoony' rather than cute. Since it's obvious that Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse had a role in Sonic's influence, I'm pretty sure those guys were just designed to be cartoon animals, not directly CUTE cartoon animals. But whatever may be, Sonic's image is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

2 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Amy has all the cuteness the games will ever need anyway but its to bad he quit after Sonic 1 he's the one who made Amy, Sonic, and Eggman after all.   

Amy actually came from some Sonic manga.

[A person, that exists]

Yuji Naka left in 2006, so I guess that he has no influence on the series whatsoever at this point.

With that said, I think that Sonic being cute and running through cute worlds just kinda makes Sonic what people who never played a Sonic game think he is: a shallow Mario ripoff. So, yeah, I wouldn't mind a little more attitude, as long as it plays good.

But, if Sega decides to bring back the Mohawk Jaleel White Sonic, who constantly yells outdated movie references at the top of his lounges as a way to bring back the "Attitude", then I'll just stop being a fan of the series altogether. Really, that Sonic wasn't cool, he was just pandering and stupid.

[BaronGrackle]

15 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Naka: Sonic was originally supposed to be this impertinent, cheeky character. However, once he blew up in popularity, his image gradually morphed into something more cutesy.

I call folderol. When did Sonic morph into something more cutesy? Which game, Naka?

I'm not seeing major divergences between 1991 and 1997. Unless Naka's suggesting his team lost creative control over Sonic before the first game released? Nah. Cutesy Sonic didn't exist until Sonic Generations invented him.

Naka's just bullshitting.

[StaticMania]

Why are you using game artwork and not...like...the illustrations seen in the Mega and Gems collections?

That specific image doesn't exactly say anything...or represent the majority of classic Sonic artwork.

[A person, that exists]

11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Why are you using game artwork and not...like...the illustrations seen in the Mega and Gems collections?

That specific image doesn't exactly say anything...or represent the majority of classic Sonic artwork.

Maybe because the game artwork was meant to advertise the games and tell the general consumer the overall tone, while those artwork thingies were originally used for an insider magazine at Sega, and only THEN included in Sonic Jam?

[StaticMania]

It's not even the appropriate boxart...so that's a fail.

[BaronGrackle]

7 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Why are you using game artwork and not...like...the illustrations seen in the Mega and Gems collections?

That specific image doesn't exactly say anything...or represent the majority of classic Sonic artwork.

1) Because before the Mega and Gems collections, nobody ever saw this other artwork.

2) Is it that different? The Santa suit is cutesy, but look at Sonic's face and smirk. It's the exact same.

And if silly costumes count as crossing a line...

[Your Vest Friend]

9 hours ago, WakanoBaka said:

Amy actually came from some Sonic manga.

She came from the game designers. Ohshima has apparently said she was his, while Hoshino has apparently said it was a collab effort between him, Ohshima, the SEGA higher ups and even the Manga editors. We know for a fact Hoshino was a principle designer for her, while the one source I do know of does mention that her design has Ohshima elements. 

 

The same deal was likely in place for Charmy, although he wasn't used in the games until much later. 

[WakanoBaka]

14 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

The same deal was likely in place for Charmy, although he wasn't used in the games until much later. 

I see, well that was an interesting note. People often forget Ohshima's involvement in the series.

 

Fun fact, he also has a twitter account

 

3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

Naka's just bullshitting.

Eh? I'm pretty sure he's referring to developers and fans viewing as cute. Overall character appearance was left up to him so ofc none appeared cute.

Those SMC images are perfect examples of someone else handling the image of Big Blue...IMO

[A person, that exists]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

It's not even the appropriate boxart...so that's a fail.

Just because it doesn't match with YOUR outlook on the Classic games doesn't mean that it's inappropriate.

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, WakanoBaka said:

Those SMC images are perfect examples of someone else handling the image of Big Blue...IMO

What are those pictures even from?

[WakanoBaka]

24 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

What are those pictures even from?

I believe they were from Sonic Jam and Sonic ScreenSaver

[A person, that exists]

1 minute ago, WakanoBaka said:

I believe they were from Sonic Jam and Sonic ScreenSaver

Actually, they're from some insider Sega magazine, the name of which I sadly can't remember.

I mean, why would Sega put so much effort into stuff for a ScreenSaver?

[WakanoBaka]

5 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

I mean, why would Sega put so much effort into stuff for a ScreenSaver?

*shrugs* This is Sega after all, the same guys who turned down both Sony and then Microsoft when they offered to collab on consoles back in the day.

[Sonic Fan J]

I'm totally out of the conversation but in regards to the topic I'm actually glad to see Naka felt that way back then. I have never personally seen Sonic as cute and had never heard him being referred to as such until Morgan Web was talking about Sonic Heroes on X-Play. Hearing cute and Sonic in the same sentence absolutely boggled my mind, even as I got more involved with the rest of the fanbase who seemed to share that common perception. I will admit though that if you strip Sonic of his personality and take just his physical design that he is definitely a cute mascot character. But Sonic does have a personality and it is what set him apart back when he debuted. So, for me, seeing that Naka never wanted Sonic to be perceived as cute and me never seeing him as cute, it feels kind of nice knowing I saw Naka the way he wanted Sonic to be seen. Of course I always seem to be an outlier anyways so me seeing Sonic that way and most others not kind of speaks to how badly they managed to market Sonic on a whole.