Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

I'm... sort of amazed that you can listen to Hidden Palace Zone's music, experience it as a level within the full context of the game, and walk away with impressions of it being whimsical, lighthearted, or cutesy.

I'd say it's far closer to that than dark, at least. Walking into HPZ is a positive moment; you're going from a fiery volcanic cavern to, well, a hidden palace, a place of safety and comfort. And while it does get more serious relative to the rest of the game (while not using the HPZ theme, for what it's worth) with the Doomsday mural and Eggman revealing his intentions by stealing the Master Emerald and zapping Knuckles, none of it is actually dark.

[Multikaris]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Just edited but I'll pop it here:

It's a piece of key art. From the character's original designer. 

And Generations now pays for... what other games do? Shit, I guess Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 both really suck now because... Sonic Heroes existed kinda close to when they did. 

Almost like it's SA3 page nonsense! Boy howdy!

Not everything by the original designer reflects the final product, and SA1 and SA2 weren’t literally sandwiched between crap.

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Not everything by the original designer reflects the final product, and SA1 and SA2 weren’t literally sandwiched between crap.

...well they sure did get crap afterwards, in the form of Heroes. And Shadow. And 06. Why does being specifically 'sandwiched' matter? And again, how is what another game does in anyway relevant to a given game? And that's all bearing in mind SA2 is hardly that great to begin with. 

Anyway I hate to break it to you, but those pieces of key art are still in use today and evidently ended up in final products. Especially when the box of the first game uses art from the same line.

~ IT'S ALMOST LIKE ~

[drumroll]

IT'S JUST SA3 PAGE NONSENSE, TONI~GHT! ~

[Multikaris]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...well they sure did get crap afterwards, in the form of Heroes. And Shadow. And 06. Why does being specifically 'sandwiched' matter? And again, how is what another game does in anyway relevant to a given game? And that's all bearing in mind SA2 is hardly that great to begin with. 

Anyway I hate to break it to you, but those pieces of key art are still in use today and evidently ended up in final products. Especially when the box of the first game uses art from the same line.

~ IT'S ALMOST LIKE ~

[drumroll]

IT'S JUST SA3 PAGE NONSENSE, TONI~GHT! ~

Point taken. Ah well.

 

Yet didn’t Generations get crap on it in the form of Episode 2, Lost World, all three Boom games, Runners...

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

and SA1 and SA2 weren’t literally sandwiched between crap.

With a several year void of main series games preceding them and Heroes and Shadow following I think one could fairly argue that they were.

Not that this line of logic makes any sense to begin with. If the best written Sonic game ever had come out between Lost World and Forces would its merits be cancelled out because of them?

[Marco9966]

27 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Oh god, when we've gotten into just spamming the SA3 page's nonsense as an 'argument' we're at a lost cause. 

There. It's just as ridiculous cherry-picked. I didn't even need to resort to using fanart to dramatically oversell how 'epic' light-dashing into Shadow a few times in a clunky boss fight was. Rad. 

1st one is an unknown obscure game not part of main games.

Third one is a callback to ADVENTURE ERA, and not a new moment written for the post-2010 era...

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

1st one is an unknown obscure game not part of main games.

Third one is a callback to ADVENTURE ERA, and not a new moment written for the post-2010 era...

My point is that it's based on Key Art, as I noted above. 

You're right in that the third one is an Adventure callback, so let me cherrypick something else instead:

There. Sorted. Unless the mere sight of bright colours onscreen causes you to melt. 

[Almar]

I don't know what dark means now. Or how it rules out being silly/humorous. 

Even for how the Genesis games were, you're kidding yourself if they had the same aesthetics and tone as the Adventures, Ow the Edge, Sonic Fantasy, Sonic's Another Dissapointment.

[Multikaris]

6 minutes ago, Almar said:

I don't know what dark means now. Or how it rules out being silly/humorous. 

Even for how the Genesis games were, you're kidding yourself if they had the same aesthetics and tone as the Adventures, Ow the Edge, Sonic Fantasy, Sonic's Another Dissapointment.

Nor the aesthetics and tone of Colors and Lost World.

[BaronGrackle]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'd say it's far closer to that than dark, at least. Walking into HPZ is a positive moment; you're going from a fiery volcanic cavern to, well, a hidden palace, a place of safety and comfort. And while it does get more serious relative to the rest of the game (while not using the HPZ theme, for what it's worth) with the Doomsday mural and Eggman revealing his intentions by stealing the Master Emerald and zapping Knuckles, none of it is actually dark.

I... I am further amazed. You're talking about safety and comfort and positive moments. There is nothing safe or comforting about the endgame shift that is Lava Reef Act 2 -> Hidden Palace -> Sky Sanctuary. The only positive elements are from the heroes' fresh resolve.

I'd argue that the burning of Angel Island is less dark and more like a summer blockbuster adventure, in tone.

. . .

Does it change things to use words like "serious" or "epic", instead of "dark"?

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Nor the aesthetics and tone of Colors and Lost World.

...I don't see how this seems out of place in-line with Classic Sonic. In fact I imagine something like Aquarium Park would fit quite well into the Classic aesthetic, perhaps with a couple tweaks. Same dealio as Studiopolis, innit.

In fact, they're probably more fitting than "literally just San Francisco Zone".

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

I... I am further amazed. You're talking about safety and comfort and positive moments.

...yes? Going from a volcano to a palace would be pleasant? I don't understand how that could be controversial.

2 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Does it change things to use words like "serious" or "epic", instead of "dark"?

That's certainly closer to what HPZ was going for. But I'd say "epic" would be an exaggeration and it's "serious" to about the same level as other cartoony platformers shifting into their endgame.

[Wraith]

 

 

 

 

 

They're the same shit guys. Give it a rest already.

 

[BaronGrackle]

23 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...yes? Going from a volcano to a palace would be pleasant? I don't understand how that could be controversial.

But the transition had already begun in Lava Reef Act 2. The music gets less action-packed. The lava cools. You remember that transition, right? And the music, specifically?

 

The quieter music doesn't mean things are getting better. The cooling lava doesn't mean the worst is over. It means the worst is yet to come. And yes, then the Death Egg returns.

When the music for Lava Reef Act 2 / Hidden Palace starts to play, we are in the eye of a hurricane.

That's certainly closer to what HPZ was going for. But I'd say "epic" would be an exaggeration and it's "serious" to about the same level as other cartoony platformers shifting into their endgame.

Sonic 2 had a similar eye of the hurricane feel, with Sky Chase Zone. (The Sky Chase Zone music is a determined one, not a celebratory one.)

Which other 2D platformers have this? I'm sure there are some, but not many. Not the Marios.

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

The quieter music doesn't mean things are getting better. The cooling lava doesn't mean the worst is over. 

I would say that less lava is better though.

You keep pointing at the stuff that surrounds the start of HPZ, but that's not the part I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you first enter HPZ, as compared to the boss fight over lava that came before, and the rush towards the climax of the game after. It's a calm piece of music for a peaceful and safe place. That the peace and safety end up being shattered when Eggman busts in doesn't invalidate that it was a peaceful and safe place.

7 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Which other 2D platformers have this? I'm sure there are some, but not many. Not the Marios.

SMB3 has the sudden twist that Bowser kidnapped Peach while you were running around saving all those kings, forcing you to chase him to the Dark World which is full of fire and skulls and literal darkness. But, y'know, it's still fuckin' Mario.

[BaronGrackle]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I would say that less lava is better though.

You keep pointing at the stuff that surrounds the start of HPZ, but that's not the part I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you first enter HPZ, as compared to the boss fight over lava that came before, and the rush towards the climax of the game after. It's a calm piece of music for a peaceful and safe place. That the peace and safety end up being shattered when Eggman busts in doesn't invalidate that it was a peaceful and safe place.

I see. I don't fully agree with you, but our opposite sides are kinda on the same coin. 

I love talking about Genesis Sonic and its feelies.

[Almar]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

 

 

 

 

 

They're the same shit guys. Give it a rest already.

 

The only one of those that matches well is the Red Mountain. Need I bring up the adventure fields besides Egg Carrier? Even then, Adventure One comes off as a middle ground between Genesis and the series as representated by Adventure Two.

[Wraith]

Just now, Almar said:

The only one of those that matches well is the Red Mountain. Need I bring up the adventure fields besides Egg Carrier? Even then, Adventure One comes off as a middle ground between Genesis and the series as representated by Adventure Two.

Okay

[Bowbowis]

Are we honestly arguing over whether Hidden Palace's music is dark or goofy? Because I always heard it as "mysterious ruin" music. Y'know like a 16-bit approximation of this:

 

32 minutes ago, Almar said:

The only one of those that matches well is the Red Mountain. Need I bring up the adventure fields besides Egg Carrier? Even then, Adventure One comes off as a middle ground between Genesis and the series as representated by Adventure Two.

How are those not valid comparisons?

By the way here's the world of Sonic Adventure 2 being totally divergent from the classics:

Spoiler

 

 

 

And don't make me bring up the mountains shaped like pumpkins.

[BaronGrackle]

10 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Are we honestly arguing over whether Hidden Palace's music is dark or goofy? Because I always heard it as "mysterious ruin" music.

Bingo.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

26 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

How are those not valid comparisons?

By the way here's the world of Sonic Adventure 2 being totally divergent from the classics:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

And don't make me bring up the mountains shaped like pumpkins.

Ya know what? That brings up an interesting question:

Where did this idea that SA2 doesn’t fit the series come from? Or better yet, what makes people really think that or any variation of that belief?

Because the most you hear is conplaints about government conspiracy angle it’s story had near the last act of the game.

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

 

Where did this idea that SA2 doesn’t fit the series come from?

People on this website make stuff up about the games in their heads and bring it into the discussion forgetting that that's not how it happened.

Either that or they're okay with just lying or exaggerating about certain things to get points for their "side". Kinda like the  dumb image macros that started this detour in the first place.



Sonic fans bad

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

People on this website make stuff up about the games in their heads and bring it into the discussion forgetting that that's not how it happened.

Either that or they're okay with just lying or exaggerating about certain things to get points for their "side". Kinda like the  dumb image macros that started this detour in the irst place.



Sonic fans bad

That was a much more cynical response than I expected...

 

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

That was a much more cynical response than I expected...

 

I'll fully own up to having low tolerance for this kind of stuff today.

[BaronGrackle]

24 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Ya know what? That brings up an interesting question:

Where did this idea that SA2 doesn’t fit the series come from? Or better yet, what makes people really think that or any variation of that belief?

Because the most you hear is conplaints about government conspiracy angle it’s story had near the last act of the game.

The government conspiracy thing is the big one... it doesn't arrive at the last act of the game - it's there from the beginning. There's a president you rescue. A secret organization called G.U.N., chasing you. Everything is San Francisco and Alcatraz. A human girl whose death inspires the anti-hero to turn his life around. People say they didn't need Knuckles for this story - they probably didn't even need Sonic.

(Also, I have to say it: before Sonic Adventure 2, you could draw any of the anthro characters naked without it being porn.)