Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

To varying extents. The main conflict of the series is an animal, living in nature, saving other animals, from a human, making robots and machines, in pollution-belching factories. And CD in particular shows us technology working in concert with nature as a "good future" vs a dark and decaying hyper-industrialized "bad future".

It's fallen more and more into the background over time and eventually just became "superheroes who happen to be animals, vs a mad scientist who happens to use robots and sometimes monsters" though.

Some games like Colors brought this back, though. Others had this as a more subtle theme, like Adventure 2’s Gerald and 06’s experiment gone hideously wrong.

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, sure, maybe. Magic vs Technology is also a thing.

Sure is; especially with villains like Erazor. Magic Vs Nature is a thing.

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Others had this as a more subtle theme, like Adventure 2’s Gerald and 06’s experiment gone hideously wrong.

Quote

Sure is; especially with villains like Erazor.

Eeeh...I guess?

10 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Magic Vs Nature is a thing.

Oh shoot, can't say that's something we really think about(probably because it's less emphasized when it does crop up), but you're right.

[ComeAsYouAre]

30 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They are a natural resource that eggman and other malicious characters try to exploit, so I would say yes

Then one could argue that the series always had a theme of a Technological exploitation of Nature, Both the Emeralds  and Live animals being used  as batteries and even Eggman's attempt to control Chaos/Shadow etc , 

[DabigRG]

6 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Then one could argue that the series always had a theme of a Technological exploitation of Nature, Both the Emeralds  and Live animals being used  as batteries and even Eggman's attempt to control Chaos/Shadow etc , 

This is somewhat true as well: with the exception of Shadow and the Eclipse Cannon, every other thing Eggman has attempted to take advantage of is a monster, diety, alien, or cryptid with ties to a particular ecosystem.

[Multikaris]

7 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Then one could argue that the series always had a theme of a Technological exploitation of Nature, Both the Emeralds  and Live animals being used  as batteries and even Eggman's attempt to control Chaos/Shadow etc , 

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Has the nature vs technology bit ever been relevant to the games?  If that's a theme they were going for, they did a poor job conveying it.

 

A gameplay element that doesn't add anything story-wise.

 

That's head-canon stuff.  Nothing implies that at all.

1. Sonic CD and Colors are probably where it is most prominent, but it is present in varying degrees right on through 06. Everything from Gerald’s Biolizard to the Iblis incident. 

2. Later games and media established Sonic indeed feared the deep due to his inabilities. Eggman would begin to build fortresses underwater, in games such as the Game Gear games and 06. 

3. There’s a fair share of features the place has in common with Metropolis and Launch Base.

41 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They are a natural resource that eggman and other malicious characters try to exploit, so I would say yes

Yes. There have been many of this type, and the one wholly technological MacGuffin, the Phantom Ruby, is easily the most hazardous and deadly. 

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

 

Yes. There have been many of this type, and the one wholly technological MacGuffin, the Phantom Ruby, is easily the most hazardous and deadly. 

In Forces at least, sure.

[ComeAsYouAre]

 I think they dropped the ball with the Phantom Ruby

They should have hyped up Infinite as Eggman's Answer to Super Sonic, where he played with Infinite's genetics to make his body react to the Ruby in a similar way to how Hedgehogs react to The Emeralds 

 

Then after a fight between Super Sonic and Infinite , the Ruby's power could get too much for Infinite's body to handle and it takes control of him and turns him into a beast while Eggman tries to Take the Ruby out leading to a 3D version of the mania Final Boss

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

 I think they dropped the ball with the Phantom Ruby

They should have hyped up Infinite as Eggman's Answer to Super Sonic, where he played with Infinite's genetics to make his body react to the Ruby in a similar way to how Hedgehogs react to The Emeralds 

 

Then after a fight between Super Sonic and Infinite , the Ruby's power could get too much for Infinite's body to handle and it takes control of him and turns him into a beast while Eggman tries to Take the Ruby out leading to a 3D version of the mania Final Boss

Okay, I honestly did not think of and it actually sounds fairly cool. Perhaps complete with a theme that includes a segment of Friends.

Well, maybe a little.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Then one could argue that the series always had a theme of a Technological exploitation of Nature, Both the Emeralds  and Live animals being used  as batteries and even Eggman's attempt to control Chaos/Shadow etc , 

There's no argument. The nature shit might as well be plastered on the box for how blatant it is. 

Now would be a good time to bring it back into focus  now that I think about. 

[StaticMania]

11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Now would be a good time to bring it back into focus  now that I think about. 

Why "now" exactly?

[andrewtuell1991]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

To varying extents. The main conflict of the series is an animal, living in nature, saving other animals, from a human, making robots and machines, in pollution-belching factories. And CD in particular shows us technology working in concert with nature as a "good future" vs a dark and decaying hyper-industrialized "bad future".

It's fallen more and more into the background over time and eventually just became "superheroes who happen to be animals, vs a mad scientist who happens to use robots and sometimes monsters" though.

I've always seen the series as that.  Sure some levels are nature and others are technology-based, but I always saw that as troupe variety over anything thematic related.  To each their own I suppose.

On topic sure Yuji Naka may not have wanted "cutesy funny Sonic", but he wasn't the only person in charge of Sonic's conception.  What ultimately spoiled Sonic was a case of "too many chefs in the kitchen".  Sega was fighting over what Sonic should be long before his fans were.  First you have the "cuter" Japanese Classic Sonic vs the "radical" American Classic Sonic.  Then you have the Sonic in a band with a human girlfriend fighting abstract creatures vs. the Sonic Bible origin with brown Sonic, Kintobor, and the ROCC incident.  Earth vs. Mobius.  The goofy, constantly smiling, blue pince-nez sporting Classic Eggman vs the menacing, constantly scowling, empty eye-socket Robotnik.  Then shit really hit the fan in 1993 when Aosth, SatAM, the Archie comics, and Fleetway comics all coming out in the same year each with wildly different takes on tone, story structure, and character designs (especially Robotnik).  And Japan only helped with the confusion with the three part manga about Eggman wanting the Chaos Emeralds to boil a big egg, the serialized manga about Sonic being the secret super-hero identity of a wimpy schoolboy named Nicky, and the OVA which introduced Planet Freedom with the Lands of Sky and Darkness.  In this all within Sonic's first five years, not including Underground, the Adventure era soft-reboot, X, the Pontac-Graff era, Boom, post-SGW Archie, the IDW comics, the upcoming live-action movie, and anything else I've forgotten.

 

tl;dr the series has been a clusterfuck story-wise and tone-wise since conception, no one can agree on what Sonic should be, and it doesn't matter because the series will probably finally sputter out after the 30th anniversary unless Sega can really pull it together in time.  Fat chance.

[Heckboy]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Why "now" exactly?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/21/americas/amazon-rainforest-fire-intl-hnk-trnd/index.html

[StaticMania]

Looks like Sonic the Hedgehog 3 isn't allowed to be played in your public areas anymore.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Heckboy said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/21/americas/amazon-rainforest-fire-intl-hnk-trnd/index.html

Siberia is also aflame. 

 

On-topic; yeah, a more serious approach was handled by not only Naka but several other directors, mainly western ones but also Shiro Maekawa, Shun Nakamura, and even Izuka at times. Meanwhile most of those more comical versions have been rather... short lived. 

[ComeAsYouAre]

55 minutes ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

I've always seen the series as that.  Sure some levels are nature and others are technology-based, but I always saw that as troupe variety over anything thematic related.  To each their own I suppose.

On topic sure Yuji Naka may not have wanted "cutesy funny Sonic", but he wasn't the only person in charge of Sonic's conception.  What ultimately spoiled Sonic was a case of "too many chefs in the kitchen".  Sega was fighting over what Sonic should be long before his fans were.  First you have the "cuter" Japanese Classic Sonic vs the "radical" American Classic Sonic.  Then you have the Sonic in a band with a human girlfriend fighting abstract creatures vs. the Sonic Bible origin with brown Sonic, Kintobor, and the ROCC incident.  Earth vs. Mobius.  The goofy, constantly smiling, blue pince-nez sporting Classic Eggman vs the menacing, constantly scowling, empty eye-socket Robotnik.  Then shit really hit the fan in 1993 when Aosth, SatAM, the Archie comics, and Fleetway comics all coming out in the same year each with wildly different takes on tone, story structure, and character designs (especially Robotnik).  And Japan only helped with the confusion with the three part manga about Eggman wanting the Chaos Emeralds to boil a big egg, the serialized manga about Sonic being the secret super-hero identity of a wimpy schoolboy named Nicky, and the OVA which introduced Planet Freedom with the Lands of Sky and Darkness.  In this all within Sonic's first five years, not including Underground, the Adventure era soft-reboot, X, the Pontac-Graff era, Boom, post-SGW Archie, the IDW comics, the upcoming live-action movie, and anything else I've forgotten.

 

tl;dr the series has been a clusterfuck story-wise and tone-wise since conception, no one can agree on what Sonic should be, and it doesn't matter because the series will probably finally sputter out after the 30th anniversary unless Sega can really pull it together in time.  Fat chance.

That's true, it reminds me of the discussion over which Samus Appearance is the "Most loyal to the original vision" with Prime and Zero suit Samus being the two most popular candidates, that discussion actually got as heated up as a lot of discussions in the Sonic Community due to Other M(The 2006 of Metroid) 

 

Because Samus has had so many appearances in different games and media and even Magazines nobody agrees on what she should look like , doesn't that remind you of something?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Why "now" exactly?

Because the series is sorta lacking in much of a consistent framework and a set of themes to build off of as of late.

While you can certainly make an decent argument for how some of the modern games resembles or outright draws from what came before(eg Colors), the series also arguably skimps on holding much down, nevermind running with it.

.

1 hour ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

the ROCC incident.

 

The what now?

Quote

And Japan only helped with the confusion with the three part manga about Eggman wanting the Chaos Emeralds to boil a big egg

WHAT?!  

[DabigRG]

I really should've just dragged this.

[Heckboy]

43 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The what now?

Thing from the old Western canon. Turned Kintobor into Robotnik.

[StaticMania]

That's not Rockin' enough.

It's one of those misguided attempts at goodness that is actually really evil all along.

[Multikaris]

On 1/28/2018 at 8:18 AM, andrewtuell1991 said:

Again, It just sounds like people are mentally supplanting Western material (the cartoons and comics) onto the games and looking for things that were never there.  I've played through the classics dozens of times I don't see where this "nature vs technology" thing is that other people seeing.  Yeah some levels take place in nature and others in cities, but it's not done in a way that tries to communicate an environmental message. More like it was done for aesthetic variety / trying to set themselves apart from Mario.

Something being a ruin/base/casino (is that what SYZ was?) doesn't exclude it from being happy and bright.  Nothing about Marble's Barney-purple or Labyrinth's golden browns makes me take them anymore seriously than Green Hill.  The only level I might give you is Scrap Brain for its music and black/brown background but even then its foreground is a bright silver-y color that looks more polished than should be expected from a villain that wants to be taken seriously.

And it also has the word "Egg" in it.

I’ve gotten thinking about the silent storytelling of the series back in those days, and well, the nature/magic/technology/urbanity contrast is indeed everywhere. And it does have a meaning, a subtle meaning that crept throughout the series with few exceptions, notably in 2013. 

 

Sonic 1: Bright-happy levels were frequent back then and made up at least half the stages. Perhaps due to being the first entry in the series, South Island is made out to be fairly cheery, and it’s not only in nature (Green Hill, Bridge, Jungle), for the urban construction sites of Spring Yard and Star Light are also bright and full of possibilities and hope for the future, and are still under attack from Eggman. This is a showcase of technology sitting alongside nature without harming it. Marble and Labyrinth are examples of nature managing to overtake (gaudy) remnants of civilizations long lost, with their remains providing a place for nature to thrive yet still hiding their inhospitable dangers, some natural, some manmade. These zones are both wondrous and horrible, but more wondrous in some areas than others. Their natural dangers seem to have been responsible for the doom of the civilizations that once lived there. Scrap Brain and Sky Base are the sterling lairs of Eggman, who shows his narcissism for the first time by keeping them polished and shiny. Notice how the ancient regions are more subdued and solid than the natural or urban areas, due to the use of similar colors and designs in the foreground and background. This glimpse into the past of civilizations shows that long ago, everything was one monolithic mass, while the modern cities seem to be designed a bit more with nature in mind. Could Eggman be repeating the same mistake the ancients did?

Sonic 2: Here’s where themes are more refined, with corrupting technology piercing into more areas, like Oil Ocean and Gimmick Mountain. Both South and Westside island have both wonderful and miserable areas, most of those miserable areas under Eggman’s reign. The launch of the Death Egg in the 16-bit version and the murder of Tails in the 8-bit version show how farfetched this bumbler’s ambitions are. Eggman is a crouching moron, hidden badass. When he puts his often feeble mind to it, terrible things can happen. Regardless, stages like Sky Chase display the determination of Sonic. Tails’s determination to save Sonic comes into play at the end, alongside the discovery of Super Sonic and the seventh emerald. Mystic Cave is sort of the start of magic being more involved, especially with Hidden Palace. 

Sonic CD: The Bad Futures and Good Futures Show two different sides to technology, be it used for evil or good. Even Eggman’s own creations can be used for good, as demonstrated by Metallic Madness. Several of the stages seem less... cheery than South Island.

Sonic 3: Unlike the prior two, several more areas on Angel Island are dangerous even without Eggman’s power, nor any man-made hazard, such as Lava Reef. Yet these natural worlds are somehow both wondrous and horrible. Eggman is shown to actively ruin and decimate nature and urban areas before our very eyes. The game also introduced the oft-flanderized Knuckles. In his early apperances, Knuckles was not even gullible, merely untrusting. He never actually helped Eggman per se; if he did believe him, he would have given him the Emeralds for safekeeping. Knuckles had never encountered Eggman before, and grew up alone believing everyone was a potential thief. He hampered Sonic’s actions because he was untrusting, and he also damaged Eggman’s base as well. He was able to stay ahead of all his opponents, and did not take a side until Eggman harmed him. This scenario was used again in Adventure. Over the years, he was flanderized into first being gullible, then truly foolish. 

 

These themes would continue into future games, where we see his grandfather managed to go insane and create the Biolizard, the misplaced efforts of science create Iblis, etc.

[BaronGrackle]

5 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Sonic 3: Unlike the prior two, several areas on Angel Island are dangerous even without Eggman’s power, such as Lava Reef. Yet these worlds are somehow both wondrous and horrible.

I just wanted to comment, there were plenty of areas in the previous games that were dangerous without Robotnik's power, as you said:

[q]Marble and Labyrinth are examples of nature managing to overtake (gaudy) remnants of civilizations long lost, with their remains providing a place for nature to thrive yet still hiding their inhospitable dangers[/q]

Marble and Labyrinth had man-made dangers, but the natural ones (lava and water, respectively) are the most thematic. The zones are, as you said, wondrous and horrible.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:40 PM, ComeAsYouAre said:

No, Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic should be treated as completely different characters mainly because the fans of the two are so different in what they want that it's for the best for a Hard Divide to happen

I never suggested modern sonic should be replaced by classic for 3D. Modern sonic games could still be created even while a 3D classic sonic game existed. Modern games give you an opportunity to explore ideas outside of the typical sonic formula, as well as adding lots of new characters and stories. And it's not like classic games couldn't do that either; I'm merely just stating that I'd like for one single 3D game to channel all of that classic essence into a proper, smash hit of a 3D game. 

I would not limit classic sonic to 2D because even modern sonic has had 2D games. There's no reason to forbid classic to do 3D, especially if his games turn out to be better than modern's.

[Almar]

Honestly, if we accept what Naka wanted then that means Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are one character who live in a world with both anthros and humans with Genesis games happening in a set of islands while the Adventure games happened in human territories.

Point is, if Sonic's current handlers don't seem to take Naka's word seriously then can you expect us to?

[Wraith]

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Because the series is sorta lacking in much of a consistent framework and a set of themes to build off of as of late.

 

It wouldn't have been good for the series to keep revisiting the same themes over and over. 

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It wouldn't have been good for the series to keep revisiting the same themes over and over. 

Revisiting? When one thinks of a brand's identity, there are a certain number of general ideas that come to mind and can be cited if one looks close enough. Ideas that go beyond just having "Green Hill Zone," for example. 

Granted, that's essentially what the Dreamcast era did, but still.