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Marco9966

Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

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sonic 1 is not slow. it's just that for the most part, speed is not given to you, it's earned. it's momentum based, through memorisation and repeated playing. exploring and finding alternate paths that either lead you to short cuts, or extra rings and power ups. there are many ways to play the game. at first glance sonic's abilities may seem limited, however, various combinations can produce a continuous flow of choreography, transforming hazardous zones into playful obstacle courses. knowing what to do at the right time makes a big difference. i feel entirely responsible for what sonic does. there's a great sense of accomplishment after an act is completed. green hill zone is looked at as one of the best designed stages in gaming history by critics to this day. I personally wish the same attention was given to starlight and spring yard zones. labyrinth, and the 3rd act of scrap brain , are the only zones that can't be sped through - despite there being short cuts.

sonic's in game animation and title screen appearance, is the same as the European/Japanese boxart; cute. even more so is the 'baby sonic' that appears after you get a continue in the special stage. sonic's friends trapped inside the badniks are also cute. even the majority of the badniks themselves such as; the motobug, buzz bomber, crabmeat, etc are deceptively cute. in my own experience, it was the younger children who were more interested in sonic than the mid to late teens. he wasn't in the same category as the x-men. he wasn't exactly winnie the pooh either, but kind of in the middle, like a superhero version of Alvin from the chipmunks.

that's not to say that he didn't have 'attitude'. sure, he was impatient, liked to show off, and make wisecracks, but I would never describe him as arrogant or self centred. he was playful, fun, and likeable. he was compassionate; putting others before himself. he became a surrogate parent to tails and his viewers. there was a range from the beginning. of course, i'm basing this on the 'adventures of' cartoon. I feel that was the first, and most lasting insight into the character beyond the game.

if sonic actually had fangs, played in a rock band, and a girlfriend named Madonna... I wouldn't be interested at all. regardless of the ideas thrown around during the planning stages, it's the final product that was initially produced that I judge. as I stated before, I think he was a victim of false advertising in the American/uk commercials.

 

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22 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Trying to understand another person's opinion 101.

That right there is a basic mindset: Guilty Pleasure as most people would call it.

Well the whole thing is immaterial because the Adventure games aren't terrible.

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On 8/27/2019 at 9:30 PM, StaticMania said:

They weren't solid.

They were semi solid.

Coined by: Super Mario Maker

In soned2 they are called top solid which means Sonic appears on top of the platform when he passes through them with little or no vertical speed. However, only the top few layers of the platforms are top solid because otherwise teleporting all the way to the top would be too weird/jarring. The brown tiles underneath the grass are simply not solid so Sonic just passes through them. True solids are only used in a couple sections like loops and certain walls that Sonic isn't allowed to pass through. These are the places where it is possible for Sonic to get stuck if he goes to fast. Not usually a problem in normal Sonic 1 but it happens a lot more in romhacks where Sonic's speed is increased especially in SLZ which heavily uses true solids. It also can happen in Sonic 2 mainly in Chemical Plant zone. Collision detection with very fast characters is always hard because the character starts skipping over pixels in order to go faster whereas slow characters have to move through each and every pixel so sometimes glitches just come with the package.

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On 8/26/2019 at 5:07 PM, Plasme said:

 

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to like the 3D Sonic games, I like games which are far worse than them like Sonic R. It's just that I think it's undeniable that Sonic 1, CD and 2 are better games than them, despite their own shortcomings.

 

I don't  believe in objectivity when it comes to games anymore so I've stopped calling my pleasures guilty. Anything that clicks with me as much as the Adventure games did and still do is worth standing by.

The Adventure games are just much more interesting experiences with ideas that resonate with me and that's all that really matters.

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13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Or, guilty because you realize there are significant problems with the game but the parts you like are enough for you to overlook them.

I don't like Big's story in SA1, but that doesn't make SA1 a guilty pleasure.

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Okay but imagine if you didn't like Big's story, or Amy's, or Gamma's, or Knuckles', and that you had some significant complaints about Sonic's and Tails', but you still find yourself coming back to it because you really liked speedrunning Sonic and Tails' levels due to how broken their abilities could be. It would be a game that you put a lot of time into, a game that give you quite a bit of enjoyment, but also a game where you didn't enjoy the majority of its content. Would you still consider it to be a good game? Would it be a game you could support without qualifications, or would you say "well I liked it but..."?

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but imagine if you didn't like Big's story, or Amy's, or Gamma's, or Knuckles', and that you had some significant complaints about Sonic's and Tails', but you still find yourself coming back to it because you really liked speedrunning Sonic and Tails' levels due to how broken their abilities could be. It would be a game that you put a lot of time into, a game that give you quite a bit of enjoyment, but also a game where you didn't enjoy the majority of its content. Would you still consider it to be a good game? Would it be a game you could support without qualifications, or would you say "well I liked it but..."?

Perhaps the word "guilty" is what throws people off. I don't think anyone should feel guilty for enjoying a romp through pleasantly broken gameplay, because those are the fun parts.

The "bad" parts are the ones you don't get pleasure from.

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I like how sonic 1-derful brought up a side to Sonic I neglected; Sonic as the surrogate parent to the cast and audience. Indeed he has a tendency to fill this role, a nuance to him ignored since around 2010, and even Forces failed to make much of an attempt to return this element. This factor compliments other characters rather well, as even characters closer to his stature such as Blaze or Rouge can come off as overgrown children, even the older and wider Big. this theme is also part of why Vector manages to work compellingly, with Espio and Charmy to bounce off of and serve as a sort of foil to the Blue-Blur. Jet, Pachacamac, and Black Doom are each to an incremental degree less than ideal parents. The former even has his own father issues. 

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8 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

I like how sonic 1-derful brought up a side to Sonic I neglected; Sonic as the surrogate parent to the cast and audience. Indeed he has a tendency to fill this role, a nuance to him ignored since around 2010, and even Forces failed to make much of an attempt to return this element. 

Well that's a peculiar way of looking at him.

 

8 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

This factor compliments other characters rather well, as even characters closer to his stature such as Blaze or Rouge can come off as overgrown children, even the older and wider Big.

this theme is also part of why Vector manages to work compellingly, with Espio and Charmy to bounce off of and serve as a sort of foil to the Blue-Blur. Jet, Pachacamac, and Black Doom are each to an incremental degree less than ideal parents. The former even has his own father issues. 

Eh, Rouge?

What now?

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On 8/30/2019 at 9:02 AM, Diogenes said:

Okay but imagine if you didn't like Big's story, or Amy's, or Gamma's, or Knuckles', and that you had some significant complaints about Sonic's and Tails', but you still find yourself coming back to it because you really liked speedrunning Sonic and Tails' levels due to how broken their abilities could be. It would be a game that you put a lot of time into, a game that give you quite a bit of enjoyment, but also a game where you didn't enjoy the majority of its content. Would you still consider it to be a good game? Would it be a game you could support without qualifications, or would you say "well I liked it but..."?

I consider SA1 a good game despite Big's story, ergo it isn't a guilty pleasure.

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On 8/30/2019 at 8:02 PM, DabigRG said:

Eh, Rouge?

What now?

Well, Rouge is keen to try and take charge only for higher authorities or even Shadow to end up, well, eclipsing her, as well as her severe kleptomania getting her into undesirable situations. Her flirting with Knuckles is another thing, showing her desire to be mature. Blaze and Tails are other examples of this, with Amy to a lesser extent. Knuckles is the only one who has managed to mature, turning his interest to the Master Emerald, but falls often into frivolous pursuits.

Jet has a tendency to ignore Wave and belittle Storm regardless of their interest in him, and as a consequence, they became despondent. Vector is a better parent figure, though his impoverishment renders him often in bad situations. Pachacamac and Black Doom are plainly cruel and abusive, which led to the revenge of their children. 

 

On-topic, I feel like the environments of Sonic Adventure would be a good thing to shoot for, with more detached locations like in Sonic 2 on occasion as well. 

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7 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, Rouge is keen to try and take charge only for higher authorities or even Shadow to end up, well, eclipsing her, as well as her severe kleptomania getting her into undesirable situations. Her flirting with Knuckles is another thing, showing her desire to be mature. Blaze and Tails are other examples of this, with Amy to a lesser extent. Knuckles is the only one who has managed to mature, turning his interest to the Master Emerald, but falls often into frivolous pursuits.

Jet has a tendency to ignore Wave and belittle Storm regardless of their interest in him, and as a consequence, they became despondent. Vector is a better parent figure, though his impoverishment renders him often in bad situations. Pachacamac and Black Doom are plainly cruel and abusive, which led to the revenge of their children. 

 

On-topic, I feel like the environments of Sonic Adventure would be a good thing to shoot for, with more detached locations like in Sonic 2 on occasion as well. 

...Nice interpretations/headcanons? 

Also, I wouldn't say Pachamac was abusive. He seemed more distant and firm before desperation or bloodlust caused him to have his tribesmen assault babies. 

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I don't recall any recent Sonic games trying to make Sonic cutesy? So I don't really understand where this is even coming from. Yeah they've been taking the angle of more self-aware and cartoonish approach, but that isn't really the same as being cutesy.

YMMV if you don't like Sonic being a somewhat unfunny Ryan Reynolds wannabe. But its not like any of the other interpretations of Sonic have had stunning characterisation. SA1 Sonic was basic as fuck and had honestly laughable dialogue. SA2 is better, but that isn't really saying much. Heroes through to 06 is such utter garbage that its not even worth thinking about to be brutally honest. Unleashed and SatBK are probably the best iteration of the semi-serious Sonic, but still brought a lot more self-awareness and levity to the party than the ridiculously edgy nonsense that came immediately before it. 

What ultimately matters is the quality though. If a genuinely talented writer came in and produced a Pixar quality story where Sonic and co were cutesy, it would still be better than literally every other Sonic story that has ever existed.

I personally don't care which direction they take, though I certainly have preferences. All I want is genuine effort and passion put into producing something of quality, instead of half-assedly attempting to target some niche segment of the massively fractured fanbase. If its just really fucking good, it has a better chance of satisfying not just existing fans, but attracting more people to the games as well.

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17 hours ago, Scar said:

I don't recall any recent Sonic games trying to make Sonic cutesy? So I don't really understand where this is even coming from.

You see cutesy in Modern-Classic Sonic, during Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces. The design for Modern-Classic Sonic seems based on early concept art, secret Japanese magazines, and very few depictions in international media. The Western world saw most of this later on through Sonic Jam and such.

Specific example: if you only played the Genesis trilogy in the '90s, you probably didn't think Dr. Robotnik wore glasses. His eye pixels were clearly separated. That's probably why all the cartoon shows and the McDonalds toy had him without glasses.

(One major exception I found was his boss battle at the end of Sonic Spinball, which has defined black glasses on him.)

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29 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

His eye pixels were clearly separated.

Considering how small the piece connecting his glasses is (and the fact that it curves around his nose), it's not exactly possible to actually put it there unless the sprite is big enough.

Even his Advance sprite doesn't show the connecting piece unless he's looking straight at the camera.

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19 hours ago, Scar said:

I don't recall any recent Sonic games trying to make Sonic cutesy? So I don't really understand where this is even coming from. Yeah they've been taking the angle of more self-aware and cartoonish approach, but that isn't really the same as being cutesy.

YMMV if you don't like Sonic being a somewhat unfunny Ryan Reynolds wannabe. But its not like any of the other interpretations of Sonic have had stunning characterisation. SA1 Sonic was basic as fuck and had honestly laughable dialogue. SA2 is better, but that isn't really saying much. Heroes through to 06 is such utter garbage that its not even worth thinking about to be brutally honest. Unleashed and SatBK are probably the best iteration of the semi-serious Sonic, but still brought a lot more self-awareness and levity to the party than the ridiculously edgy nonsense that came immediately before it. 

What ultimately matters is the quality though. If a genuinely talented writer came in and produced a Pixar quality story where Sonic and co were cutesy, it would still be better than literally every other Sonic story that has ever existed.

I personally don't care which direction they take, though I certainly have preferences. All I want is genuine effort and passion put into producing something of quality, instead of half-assedly attempting to target some niche segment of the massively fractured fanbase. If its just really fucking good, it has a better chance of satisfying not just existing fans, but attracting more people to the games as well.

I think it has to do with the level artstyle for games like Lost World, which featured many cutesy and nonsensical elements, and was overall simplified and brightened. 

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On 5/25/2018 at 4:49 PM, Badnik Mechanic said:

sonic_lost_world1.jpg

The following are PS1 games of the same genre within a similar environment.

latest?cb=2013010805500736950-Gex_-_Enter_the_Gecko_%5BNTSC-U%5D

They look like a PS1 game in that they are set in a green stage. 

 

Is that what you meant?

More on that; they use simple, rounded shapes to form the green stage, alongside a non-interactive skybox, with a mottled texture effect to evoke grass. The sky has a predominant color along with the clouds. 

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There's probably more to say, but I mostly wanted to sail in with these,becuase I find them fascinating, prototype Sonic definitely looks more "attitudy" then the Japanese classic Sonic we got.

 

Capture.PNG.210e938799318d7480c365d43dd10b34.PNG622258910_Mrneedlemouse.PNG.abe3cff6a081ec020797a88b5f4aa016.PNG

 

While as far as I know, it has not been visible on any original "prototype Sonics", (of which these pictures are neither), the claim going around that Sonic "originally had fangs" is more likely true, than not. Oshima shows a preference for them in his art.

teeth.PNG.9329ef95a3924323b068d17a41f9e28f.PNGTeef.PNG.506372f5de0cee4b1612048cc4eb06ca.PNG

 

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4 hours ago, Original Character said:

There's probably more to say, but I mostly wanted to sail in with these,becuase I find them fascinating, prototype Sonic definitely looks more "attitudy" then the Japanese classic Sonic we got.

 

Capture.PNG.210e938799318d7480c365d43dd10b34.PNG622258910_Mrneedlemouse.PNG.abe3cff6a081ec020797a88b5f4aa016.PNG

 

While as far as I know, it has not been visible on any original "prototype Sonics", (of which these pictures are neither), the claim going around that Sonic "originally had fangs" is more likely true, than not. Oshima shows a preference for them in his art.

teeth.PNG.9329ef95a3924323b068d17a41f9e28f.PNGTeef.PNG.506372f5de0cee4b1612048cc4eb06ca.PNG

 

Well this explains Scourge’s fangs.

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