Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

[DryLagoon]

9 hours ago, Original Character said:

 

 

I must have seen too much anime to find the right fangs cute. The left one reminds me of Dark Chao's "default" mouth in art though.

It seems to vary when they use fangs. I know SA1 Sonic has them, and Shadow has them in his game when angry, but I can't think of other examples off the top of my head.

[Wildcat]

I didn’t read this entire thread but I think Sonic was bound to be seen as cutesy no matter what. His design is similar to Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse. They clearly wanted him to have some element of cuteness to him.

Purposely giving Adventure a more “edgy” styling is fine. It’s part of his appeal. I liked it but with respect to Yuji Naka, if he was always portrayed as a “bad boy” I think it would off putting. Now he’s a mix of different things. Cool, tough, heroic, adventurous, cute, funny. This is more of a real personality.

I think Hello Kitty is a bad example. Sonic is an ongoing series with story and world building. I mean it can’t fall into just being cute for cute sake. I know Sanrio has other characters but it's a different brand. I guess he really dislikes those Hello Kitty crossovers.

[DryLagoon]

9 hours ago, Wildcat said:

I think Hello Kitty is a bad example. Sonic is an ongoing series with story and world building. I mean it can’t fall into just being cute for cute sake. I know Sanrio has other characters but it's a different brand. I guess he really dislikes those Hello Kitty crossovers.

I think the concern is that (like recently) if there is more "cute" Sonic merch, that Sonic can't "beat" Hello Kitty at being cute, so focusing on that side too much would be bad for his long term survival. I personally think it being more balanced works fine. Sonic can be cute at times, but it's different from Hello Kitty where the main goal is being cute to sell merch.

I see Classic Sonic as cool-cute, leaning more towards cool but still cuter than Modern Sonic's design. (the Japanese design from the 90s, not American 90s design or Modern-Classic design)

[Wildcat]

14 hours ago, DryLagoon said:

I think the concern is that (like recently) if there is more "cute" Sonic merch, that Sonic can't "beat" Hello Kitty at being cute, so focusing on that side too much would be bad for his long term survival. I personally think it being more balanced works fine. Sonic can be cute at times, but it's different from Hello Kitty where the main goal is being cute to sell merch.

I see Classic Sonic as cool-cute, leaning more towards cool but still cuter than Modern Sonic's design. (the Japanese design from the 90s, not American 90s design or Modern-Classic design)

Ya Sonic is too elaborate to become a Hello Kitty style brand. Although I’m not sure if that’s what he meant because nobody really thinks of it as a Sanrio competitor.

I think he might actually be somewhat against Sonic being cute/friendly. I know this interview awhile ago but I think he made comments about the movie seeming to lighthearted too if I remember correctly.

[DryLagoon]

5 hours ago, Wildcat said:

Ya Sonic is too elaborate to become a Hello Kitty style brand. Although I’m not sure if that’s what he meant because nobody really thinks of it as a Sanrio competitor.

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining it well. It's more that Sonic has such an interesting setting and origins, that it'd be a waste to go full merch brand with him. It does feel like Sega has been doing more merch of Sonic than it used to in the past, including their cuter version of Classic Sonic. I do like merch too, but I think the worry is that he becomes watered down to sell merch instead of selling games/comics/etc. It's not a literal Sonic vs Hello Kitty fight, but that if he went in that direction he wouldn't survive, that's the impression I get.

Spoiler

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I think he might actually be somewhat against Sonic being cute/friendly.

I know this interview awhile ago but I think he made comments about the movie seeming to lighthearted too if I remember correctly.

That seems to be the impression in general over there about the movie (one Japanese fan I saw complained it looked too much like a "gag" movie). It's hard to look too far into it since the movie never got to come out in full in Japan yet. Baby Sonic does seem like it was aimed at Japan marketing. It's such a short scene in the actual movie, and the first time we see him in full just happens to be a Japanese ad? There's a post I came across about each sides "sin" (not literal sin but common flaw): the US side being comedy, the Japan side being cuteness.

As for Movie Sonic himself, I can see that claim being made. I'm still in the process of going through each game again, but while the Sonic lore was merged after Sonic Adventure 1, the tone split came back after 2009. So once again what is being marketed in the US is different from Japan. It's a topic I want to make in the future, but I'm not sure how it'd be received here. Honestly even some American fans were annoyed at how they changed Sonic's personality in the movie, so I'd imagine for Japanese fans that change might be even more jarring.

[Wildcat]

Ya that’s what I meant too. That Sonic has so much more going on than just being a cute thing. I don’t think cuteness should be the focus but it’s still an important element overall imo. To me it’s part of it. I’ve been wanting that plushie you posted.

I really liked his personality in the movie. The childish/hyperactive behavior aside (which fits) he’s caring and wants to do good.

You can still be caring while having an “attitude” but I’m glad he was not portrayed as arrogant or rude. Towards Robotnik it makes sense but I mean in general. I know some disagree with me and that’s fine but I don’t think that would make him very likable.

 

[Osmium]

This is a large bump on a topic that's been to hell and back. But I've been thinking lately about what Naka meant when he said he thought Sonic's image was morphing into something more 'cuetsy', and the intention when he states that Sonic was mean to be impertinent and cheeky. First of all, let's just think of what impertinent and cheeky mean. The definition of impertinent is "not showing proper respect; rude." Synonyms for impertinent in a thesaurus gives us words like arrogant, impolite, ill-mannered, etc. Similar to this, the definition of cheeky is "impudent or irreverent, typically in an endearing or amusing way." with its synonyms being bold, disrespectful, brash, etc. 

Now, let's think of what cutesy means. It may seem obvious since it's a casual word, but I think the definition actually makes it easier to consider what is meant by cutesy in the way Naka was saying it. The Webster definition of the word gives us "self-consciously or excessively cute", which is definitely distinct from just the standard use of the world "cute". It's not just Sonic being cute, it's Sonic being self-consiously cute, which I think there's actually more substance to that than may appear at first glance. 

I think a large problem of why people have a difficult time understanding what is trying to be implied by Sonic being 'cutesy' or not is that there is a cultural barrier between the idea of cute in Japan and the idea of cute in the west. The general word used to describe "cute" in Japan would be kawaii (which you probably already knew). Kawaii has more meanings than just "cute" though. It has several casual uses in Japan, with a major one being that it is used as expression of "expressing affection or attachment to young or small things". Another being that it can "refer to the act of favoring or caring for someone of a lower level, or in a lower situation." It's important to realise that kawaii is not simply an adjetive for cute, but instead closer to describing feeling of affection or cuteness towards something. Both 'cute' and 'cutesy' seem to translate to kawaii in Japanese, which seems to make sense with what was described above, since Kawaii culture is very associated with things that people reguard as cute and having affection torwards. 

But with that, something important also come up in context to Japanese culture. A significant fraction of men in Japan do not directly like being referred to as kawaii, with some thinking it's an affront to their masculinity. This likely comes from several places, one of which being what I described above, where kawaii can refer to almost a pitying sort of expression, as affection towards a young, small, or weak person, or also a possible association with femininity. There are also several words closely related to kawaii which have less flattering general meanings, such as "pitiable", which is not surprising considering that kawaii's historical use was closer to describing people who were beneath you. 

So where am I going with this? Well, I think it's very explicit that Naka tried to distance himself from the word 'kawaii', and instead went for words like 'cheeky' and 'impudent'. Now I don't think he spent a great amount of time delibrately picking these words in particular to contrast, but rather it seems natural in this case. What I mean is that I think Naka was trying to distance Sonic as much as possible from connotations of 'kawaii', in particular portraying him perhaps as a young, small, vulnerable character. This is why he describes Sonic as impudent instead; Sonic isn't meant to be vulnerable, cared for, and receptive to affection; instead he's supposed to be confident, full of himself, and not taking orders from others. This is why in a lot of early Japanese descriptions Sonic is described as not caring for authority and not what they call a "do-gooding hero". His design might be said to look cute, but his essence isn't supposed to be cute. I think a good example of this early on is to look at some very early concept art for Sonic. 

I would very specifically NOT describe these images as "cutesy" or "kawaii" (in the extended sense we have discussed); he looks downright aggressive and defiant in some of these images. His stances and expressions show his confidence in himself and that he knows what he's doing. That's why he's cool. Like I said, he might look cute, but he's not cutesy. They're two completely different things in this situation, and I believe that's why Naka was talking the way that he was. We also know a lot of the very early art went even further than this, with him looking more consistently angry and with the famous fangs. 

I think even the original quote from the boxart supports this to an extent: "Don't just sit there and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, do it right away. Do it when you can. It's the only way to live a life without regrets." It's a relatively mature way of thinking. Now, I'm not saying Sonic is mature or is even supposed to be, but rather it shows how he's in control of his life and lives only the way he wants to. This clearly goes back into what I've discussed, with Sonic being confident, arrogant, and not taking orders from anyone. In this case, it's not aggressive but rather is shown in a positive light, in that if you want something you should strive for it no matter what and to live life to the fullest. 

Cute characters having more "adult" (in a relative sense) personalities or actions is of course not something unique to Sonic in Japan. There are many characters who are similar. Think of early Dragon Ball for instance, which has some characters that could be described as looking relatively childlike and cute but with downright nefarious or perverted personalities. Sonic of course isn't either of those, but it's the meaning that matters. 

[light-gaia]

On 5/23/2018 at 9:04 PM, Multikaris said:

Nor the aesthetics and tone of Colors and Lost World.

I don't think there's a problem with Colors' aesthetics, it's very sonic-y, memorable and original. Lost World on the other hand, it's generic and looks more like a Mario game, even though it is beautiful. The issue is the tone and characterization. In my opinion, the decline of Sonic (as a character, not talking about gameplay here) started with Sonic Colors.

Edited March 18, 2022 by light-gaia
Grammar checking