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Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic


Marco9966

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53 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Are we honestly arguing over whether Hidden Palace's music is dark or goofy? Because I always heard it as "mysterious ruin" music. Y'know like a 16-bit approximation of this:

 

How are those not valid comparisons?

By the way here's the world of Sonic Adventure 2 being totally divergent from the classics:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Image result for Death Egg ZoneImage result for final rush

Image result for starlight zoneImage result for radical highway

Image result for marble gardenImage result for dry lagoon

Image result for scrap brain zoneImage result for prison lane

Image result for Reactive factoryImage result for metal harbor

SandopolisAct2.pngImage result for pyramid cave 

Image result for mushroom hillFile:Greenforest.png

 

And don't make me bring up the mountains shaped like pumpkins.

Meanwhile in Lost World, we have levels that truly don’t fit with the series... 

 

Like that donut one, for instance?

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38 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Ya know what? That brings up an interesting question:

Where did this idea that SA2 doesn’t fit the series come from? Or better yet, what makes people really think that or any variation of that belief?

Because the most you hear is conplaints about government conspiracy angle it’s story had near the last act of the game.

Honestly, I think SA2 is more a victim of the the blow-back to Shadow and '06 than anything else. After those games flopped the idea that darkness, serious stories, quasi-realistic environments, Shadow, humans, GUN, multiple playable characters, etc. are anathema to the series came to the forefront. Thing is, Sonic Adventure 2 had those elements but was held in high regard, creating a problem for people who bought into that narrative. Rather than parsing why SA2 worked while Shadow and '06 failed and reevaluating their claims based on that people found it easier to write off SA2 as overrated crap which only nostalgic morons could like. Hence the current attitude towards it.

Because somebody is inevitably going to use this to accuse me of being such a nostalgic moron let me qualify my statement by saying: No, SA2 isn't perfect. That doesn't mean it's bad. Capisce?

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9 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

The government conspiracy thing is the big one... it doesn't arrive at the last act of the game - it's there from the beginning. There's a president you rescue. A secret organization called G.U.N., chasing you. Everything is San Francisco and Alcatraz. A human girl whose death inspires the anti-hero to turn his life around. People say they didn't need Knuckles for this story - they probably didn't even need Sonic.

(Also, I have to say it: before Sonic Adventure 2, you could draw any of the anthro characters naked without it being porn.)

Actually, the thing about that is you don’t find out about the whole conspiracy at the beginning. It’s all in pieces throughout the plot on both Hero and Dark stories—it’s the last act that puts it all together and gives the whole picture of everything that happened from the beginning of Eggman releasing Shadow to Sonic’s capture, but you’re in the dark the whole time until then, and the entire time you’re focused on either saving the world on the side of the Heroes or conquering it on the Dark side.

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15 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Actually, the thing about that is you don’t find out about the whole conspiracy at the beginning. It’s all in pieces throughout the plot on both Hero and Dark stories—it’s the last act that puts it all together and gives the whole picture of everything that happened from the beginning of Eggman releasing Shadow to Sonic’s capture, but you’re in the dark the whole time until then, and the entire time you’re focused on either saving the world on the side of the Heroes or conquering it on the Dark side.

Hmm. Sometimes when I talk to people about the classic games, I asked if they lived through the '90s and played them then. I almost asked Diogenes that just now, talking about Hidden Palace.

I did not watch the OVA, I did not jump to the Saturn or Dreamcast, and I was not part of the fanbase during the Adventure Era.

I say this because when I look at City Escape from my perspective, I see a swarm of government agents chasing Sonic through San Francisco with a big truck labeled "G.U.N", I hear the commentary of the youtubers playing it, and from that moment on I'm trying to wrap my head around this Tom Clancy world of government conspiracies, president shenanigans, prisons and executions.

I'm sure my background is related to the reaction I had. But I'm also sure other people had that reaction PRETTY EARLY ON, or the "two worlds" canon would've never been a thing. And that's been as old as... what, Sonic X?

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Well, I lived in the 90s where dial-up was the best we could do and you’d get kicked off the Internet if someone picked up the house phone (hell, just saying that makes me feel old), and given that both the original Dreamcast release and the Gamecube port of SA2 predate YouTube, I can tell you that you wouldn’t know of the conspiracy in full up until you reach the Last Story.

All you know from Heroes angle is that the military is after him after confusing Sonic for what Shadow did and that they have to stop Eggman before he uses the Eclipse Cannon; and from the Dark story, while you do find out a lot more about the past than you would the Heroes, you don’t fully know how they’re all connected. It’s only nearly 20 years in hindsight that this all becomes obvious since it’s not a mystery anymore, and even considering YouTube or the whole Internet becoming far more commonplace as time went on, that’s still years after the game’s first came out that this knowledge would even spread.

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4 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

experience it as a level within the full context of the game, and walk away with impressions of it being whimsical, lighthearted, or cutesy..

Other than the crazies at the Sonic Adventure 3 Facebook page.

Can you please show me one forum, website, person... post... line of text...

That has ever described a Sonic game as those 3 words that was not trying to push an agenda or fish for a reaction.

 

I'd just really like to see who it actually is that is seriously describing the games as that.

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8 hours ago, Josh said:

 Image result for chemical plant zone

Image result for Speed Highway zone
 

Image result for Emerald Hill Zone

Image result for Emerald Coast Zone

 

Image result for Lava Reef Zone

Image result for Red Mountain Sonic

 

 

They're the same shit guys. Give it a rest already.

 

THIS

 

6 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Are we honestly arguing over whether Hidden Palace's music is dark or goofy? Because I always heard it as "mysterious ruin" music. Y'know like a 16-bit approximation of this:

 

How are those not valid comparisons?

By the way here's the world of Sonic Adventure 2 being totally divergent from the classics:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Image result for Death Egg ZoneImage result for final rush

Image result for starlight zoneImage result for radical highway

Image result for marble gardenImage result for dry lagoon

Image result for scrap brain zoneImage result for prison lane

Image result for Reactive factoryImage result for metal harbor

SandopolisAct2.pngImage result for pyramid cave 

Image result for mushroom hillFile:Greenforest.png

 

And don't make me bring up the mountains shaped like pumpkins.

AND THIS!

We're done here fellas. The only difference is the z axis.

Neo-classisism is a lie, and Sonic Generations shouldn't have happened.

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Neo-classisism is a lie, and Sonic Generations shouldn't have happened.

...that sure is an insane conclusion to draw from “SA1 levels look similar to Classic game levels”

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3 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...that sure is an insane conclusion to draw from “SA1 levels look similar to Classic game levels”

Don't forget the SA2 comparison in the spoiler tag, we could add Heroes and others too if you want (except the shitty Sonic Lost World which is a parody of classic design).

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12 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Don't forget the SA2 comparison in the spoiler tag, we could add all the games if you want (except the shitty Sonic Lost World which is a parody of classic design).

...adding SA2 doesn’t make it any less of a daft conclusion

What do all these buzzwords mean, anyway? “Neo-classisim,” the “anti-fans”, “false memory era”... like, we’re discussing Sonic the Hedgehog, not the Fall of the Berlin Wall or some shit. Throwing in buzzwords doesn’t make it seem any less like you just want to lazily invalidate anyone who disagrees with your “story-first” desire for the series. 

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34 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...adding SA2 doesn’t make it any less of a daft conclusion

What do all these buzzwords mean, anyway? “Neo-classisim,” the “anti-fans”, “false memory era”... like, we’re discussing Sonic the Hedgehog, not the Fall of the Berlin Wall or some shit. 

Neo-Classisism is when SEGA dicided to bring Classic Sonic in a watered-down cutey version, as well as mute him and put him in a separate timeline. That's a statement that Classic Sonic is nights and day different from Modern Sonic, which isnt the case because the Adventure era games are so similar to the classic games (one example: Knuckles's story, he was an important part of S3K (classic) and SA1 (modern), his history and mythology has been explored with the Master Emerald and Angel Island (Classic) as well as Tikal, Chaos, Pachacamas, the Knuckles Tribe (Modern). Plus S3K and SA1 have murals that depict the beliefs and history of the Knuckles clan, that's one example).

Anti-fans are the ones who refuse Sonic to reach his full potential and just want him to be in games like Lost World, and think that Sonic is only for kids, and that it shouldn't have any stakes or serious moments. They want him to be like Mario because Mario seems to work that way.

False-memory era is post-2010, where the franchise has been butchered and we lost most of what we love about Sonic.

 

Imagine if we refuse that Donald Duck be angry and fight with his neighbor Jones or Uncle Scrooge. What if Disney waters down Donald Duck and remove his entourage and just make him a happy go-lucky happy man, imagine if they remove HDL, Jones, Gladstone, Daisy, Rockerduck, Magica to satisfy the Disney anti-fans because it's "too much characters", "not kiddie enough", "there are robbers and angry neighbors that's too dark and serious"...

Would you rather have this:

dd-band.jpgdonald-duck-the-band-concert.jpg

Or this:

9781606999615-Rosa6.png691141.jpgBarks_Andes_PlainAwful-650x471.jpgUncle-Scrooge_Panel_2.jpeg8658bd9d6aa7eb1ae59dd423154ded8f_xl.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

whimsical, lighthearted, or cutesy.

 

6 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Other than the crazies at the Sonic Adventure 3 Facebook page.

Can you please show me one forum, website, person... post... line of text...

That has ever described a Sonic game as those 3 words that was not trying to push an agenda or fish for a reaction.

 

I'd just really like to see who it actually is that is seriously describing the games as that.

Okay, sure. 

1) "Whimsical", I honestly threw in and probably shouldn't have. A lot of Sonic is quite whimsical. Whimsy isn't always positive, either.

2) "Lighthearted" is an antonym for words including troubled, sad, worried, and is linguistically one of the opposites for dark. You asserted that Hidden Palace Zone was very much not dark. That would make it light.

3) "Cutesy" is in the thread title and opening post, used by Yuji Naka to describe Sonic before SA1. So I would direct you to this thread in general 

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3 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Neo-Classisism is when SEGA dicided to bring Classic Sonic in a watered-down cutey version, as well as mute him and put him in a separate timeline. That's a statement that Classic Sonic is nights and day different from Modern Sonic, which isnt the case because the Adventure era games are so similar to the classic games (one example: Knuckles's story, he was an important part of S3K (classic) and SA1 (modern), his history and mythology has been explored with the Master Emerald and Angel Island (Classic) as well as Tikal, Chaos, Pachacamas, the Knuckles Tribe (Modern). Plus S3K and SA1 have murals that depict the beliefs and history of the Knuckles clan, that's one example).

Anti-fans are the ones who refuse Sonic to reach his full potential and just want him to be in games like Lost World, and think that Sonic is only for kids, and that it shouldn't have any stakes or serious moments. They want him to be like Mario because Mario seems to work that way.

False-memory era is post-2010, where the franchise has been butchered and we lost most of what we love about Sonic.

 

Imagine if we refuse that Donald Duck be angry and fight with his neighbor Jones or Uncle Scrooge. What if Disney waters down Donald Duck and remove his entourage and just make him a happy go-lucky happy man, imagine if they remove HDL, Jones, Gladstone, Daisy, Rockerduck, Magica to satisfy the Disney anti-fans because it's "too much characters", "not kiddie enough", "there are robbers and angry neighbors that's too dark and serious"...

 

Ok, so I was right and the buzzwords are all just “these people don’t agree with my specific view and desire for Sonic, so they’re not ‘real fans’”

For someone hellbent on Sonic being “mature,” you sure need to grow up. 

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Sonic series art style/tone has always changed on the whim of the devs, Even many of the classic games were not the EXACT same from each other.... the idea that only certain art styles/tones for Sonic are correct and all others are a lie is a very silly bias thought to have. There's nothing wrong with strongly having a personal preferred style/tone for Sonic media. Personally I'm not a fan of the realism of the world itself on Sonic unleashed, and prefer a mix between Unleashed & Lost World or Sonic CD... That's right I liked the art style on Lost World regardless of that I felt it gone to far with it''s simple nature designs at the same time. But my opinion is Lost World has just as much right to be called a correct style along with the others. Not all of us look at it as if it's the devil.

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2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Ok, so I was right and the buzzwords are all just “these people don’t agree with my specific view and desire for Sonic, so they’re not ‘real fans’”

For someone hellbent on Sonic being “mature,” you sure need to grow up. 

Do you agree about the Neo-Classisism definition?

1 minute ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Sonic series art style/tone has always changed on the whim of the devs, Even many of the classic games were not the EXACT same from each other.... the idea that only certain art styles/tones for Sonic are correct and all others are a lie is a very silly bias thought to have. There's nothing wrong with strongly having a personal preferred style/tone for Sonic media. Personally I'm not a fan of the realism of the world itself on Sonic unleashed, and prefer a mix between Unleashed & Lost World or Sonic CD... That's right I liked the art style on Lost World regardless of I felt it to gone to far with it''s simple nature designs at the same time. But my opinion is Lost World has just as much right to be called a correct style along with the others. Not all of us look at it as if it's thew devil.

But it's such a loss of balance when before Lost World we had Colors with great realistic graphics, and after that Forces which had realistic gritty graphics.

I think Sonic Heroes did it better than Lost World, cartoony Genesis style levels, but not too downgraded graphically.

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12 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Do you agree about the Neo-Classisism definition?

But it's such a loss of balance when before Lost World we had Colors with great realistic graphics, and after that Forces which had realistic gritty graphics.

I think Sonic Heroes did it better than Lost World, cartoony Genesis style levels, but not too downgraded graphically.

“Neo-classism” is just “SEGA updated their brand guidelines”. Classic Sonic being a bit cuter doesn’t need some flowery nonsense attatched to it.

Considering the roots of Sonic’s design lay in a lot of early 90s CG work, animation that tended to be particularly abstract, I don’t think Lost World’s artstyle is ultra-unfitting. I can still look at it just fine and say “that’s a Sonic game.” It’s not my favourite artstyle by any stretch, and I would like them to pursue something else, but I don’t think it’s the end of the world - especially given Sonic spends the game on an alien planet.

However, let’s say I did like Lost World’s style. Let’s say I wanted it to be the main style.

I’ve been playing Sonic games for ~15 years. But in this hypothetical I like the Lost World style. Apparently this means I’m an “anti-fan”, despite clearly supporting the series for over a decade.

No matter how many buzzwords you use to go along with it, acting like your view of the series is the only one that matters, the “definitive” one, is big-headed. I don’t like 06, but while I disagree with those who do I’m not running round calling them “anti-fans”. Likewise if someone likes the cuter portrayal of Classic in Gens, I don’t need to whine at them about being “Neo-classist” and that making them a somehow ‘inferior’ fan. I’m not that insecure.

 

And “SA1 levels look like Classic ones” meaning “Generations shouldn’t exist” is *still* an incredibly bizarre take that you haven’t explained in any logical way yet.

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Guys, there are two things I see that correlates to the Sonic for the time going.
1) Basic structure

2) Games accompanying the series

For 1) let´s take a look at how the games are structured:
Sonic 1: tropical - ruins/old civilization - fancy city - labyrinth - city - Eggman´s base (and they wanted the water stage to be before ruins)
Sonic 2: tropical - factory (w) - ruins (w) - fancy city - mountains - cave - factory - factory - in the air - air base - Eggman´s base

Sonic 3: tropical - ruins/old civilization (w) - ruins - fancy city - mountains/cave - base

Sonic and Knuckles: tropical - air base - sandy labyrinth - cave - "palace" - air ruins - Eggman´s base + EXTRA space chase

SA1, SA2 and Heroes + Advance series follow similar structures. Colors and Lost World don´t. Except for the first levels (and for Colors the end)... but still Colors except for Wisps being fresh don´t have more than Forces do, in all honesty. 

 

As for 2) Sonic titles for Sega Genesis had many accompanying titles, also being platformers. But Sonic was still on the top of the genre, anyway. The Dreamcast era had advantage of having Crazy Taxi to be a fellow SEGA title to be with Sonic. I still believe that City Escape was not simply approved by SEGA because Sonic Team just wanted to make a stage after SF. But also because the visuals could be reminiscent of Crazy Taxi, which it is.

What accompanying titles have Sonic Unleashed, Colors, Gens, LW, Forces ? Mario ? That´s nonsensical. And still for the record, the A Team/B Team thing, I still believe that A Team did better job. Despite them having 06 in records, but... B Team now has Forces and at all... ehm... 06 whilst being unfinished, tried to be something more, whilst with Forces they didn´t even try anything.  

Unleashed was fine game, despite the werehog and Generations, whilst not spectacular, was the best shot in 3D Sonic up to now.

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7 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Meanwhile in Lost World, we have levels that truly don’t fit with the series... 

 

Like that donut one, for instance?

How is a world with floating donuts different than, I don't know, flying fishes ? 

259044-h1.jpg

Specialstages1.png

 

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At least Forces is step in the right direction, keep the graphics and serious story and multuple characters and remove Classic Sonic from the next, and there we have an acceptable game at least.

I'm fine with fans enjoying the classics and having Sonic Mania, the problem is that SEGA wanted to cater to classic fans by also downgrading the Lost World graphics and making it a looney tunes comedy, and then they added Classic Sonic in Forces! All at the expense of Modern fans.

I want SEGA to treat both factions fairly, not flood the modern games with Neo-classic shit, while making a perfectly Classic game with no "modern" references.

screenshot.jpg

 

(I don't know why the image looks blurred, but it explains the inequality between what modern fans get and what classic fans get)

 

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10 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

At least Forces is step in the right direction, keep the graphics and serious story and multuple characters and remove Classic Sonic from the next, and there we have an acceptable game at least.

I'm fine with fans enjoying the classics and having Sonic Mania, the problem is that SEGA wanted to cater to classic fans by also downgrading the Lost World graphics and making it a looney tunes comedy, and then they added Classic Sonic in Forces!

I want SEGA to treat both factions fairly, not flood the modern games with Neo-classic shit, while making a perfectly Classic game with no "modern" references.

screenshot.jpg

(IDK why the image lookds blurred, but it explains the inequality between what modern fans get and what classic fans get)

 

I’ve been through this with you before, but Classic fans got Mania because Taxman and crew worked for over 10 years building up to it. I ain’t seen any Adventure fans do that - or at least not do it well (looking at you, World). Classic being in the modern games is a daft marketing gimmick in Forces, but it made sense for Generations, a celebration of the series’ past.

Also while I’m not a huge fan of the Deadly Six, I prefer actual character design over whatever that... thing in the ‘ideal’ is. Is that one of those crappy Iblis blob things from 06?

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8 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Also while I’m not a huge fan of the Deadly Six, I prefer actual character design over whatever that... thing in the ‘ideal’ is. Is that one of those crappy Iblis blob things from 06?

It's Ifrit from Sonic Rivals 2.

How can you prefer this character design?

latest?cb=20150909220143

When we have this??

latest?cb=20170621185800&path-prefix=frlatest?cb=20170429044359

 

The Deadly Six were threatening to Sonic's planet, but they sure didn't look like it. Plus their design don't fit in Sonic's world when we have very detailed and elegant enemies like Chaos.

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7 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

It's Ifrit from Sonic Rivals 2.

How can you prefer this character design?

latest?cb=20160125045127

Over this??

latest?cb=20170621185800&path-prefix=frlatest?cb=20170429044359

 

The Deadly Six were threatening to Sonic's planet, but they sure didn't look like it. Plus their design don't fit in Sonic's world when we have very detailed and elegant enemies like Chaos.

Alongside the detailed stuff like Chaos, we’ve also had simpler designs like Void from Sonic Shuffle. The Deadly Six really aren’t any more out of place than that.

I can barely even remember what Iblis looks like, because he’s just a big blob of fire with some horns on there somewhere and a hefty amount of texturing to make it look “realistic”. The Deadly Six are simpler, but they’ve at least got features beyond “fire textures and horns” 

You’re also still doing that thing where you simply can’t believe people have a different view of the franchise to you. It’s not rocket science, kid. The SA3 Page you’re ripping your logic from is mocked roundly for a reason. 

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12 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

How can you prefer this character design?

latest?cb=20160125045127

Over this??

latest?cb=20170621185800&path-prefix=frlatest?cb=20170429044359

I love the design of Chaos 0... But I dislike Perfect Chaos and that other lame monster there... In fact I hate the Sonic 06 designs with all my black heart.

As for the Deadly 6? Err they are ok honestly... not great or anything. I think with a little bit of redesign work they could be much better... Plus permanently cut 3 of them out of the series would be good because we really don't need a big group of 6 random villains. Just A updated version of the Purple/Green/Red ones would be enough to fix them I say.

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41 minutes ago, Adamis said:

How is a world with floating donuts different than, I don't know, flying fishes ? 

259044-h1.jpg

Specialstages1.png

One's a bonus stage explicitly set in a bizarre pocket dimension containing a space-time warping stone, the other pops up in the middle of an otherwise desert themed zone with no story context and exists only to make a pun.

28 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I’ve been through this with you before, but Classic fans got Mania because Taxman and crew worked for over 10 years building up to it. I ain’t seen any Adventure fans do that - or at least not do it well (looking at you, World). Classic being in the modern games is a daft marketing gimmick in Forces, but it made sense for Generations, a celebration of the series’ past.

Also while I’m not a huge fan of the Deadly Six, I prefer actual character design over whatever that... thing in the ‘ideal’ is. Is that one of those crappy Iblis blob things from 06?

That kind of ignores the fact that SEGA had been attempting to cater specifically to Classic fans in some form or another in nearly every game for at last seven years before Mania, from 2D sections in Unleashed, to Classic in Generations, to Sonic 4. Even if SEGA wasn't always successful it's disingenuous to imply that Classic fans only got their way because of Taxman or that Adventure fans should have to make their own working prototype of Sonic Adventure 3 for SEGA to give them the time of day. Seriously, why are Adventure fans held to that standard when literally no other subset of any other fandom is.

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10 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

You’re also still doing that thing where you simply can’t believe people have a different view of the franchise to you. It’s not rocket science, kid. The SA3 Page you’re ripping your logic from is mocked roundly for a reason. 

I agree there are many different point of views, but the Lost World game is so degrading graphically. There are some good moments like Eggman or Deadly Six capturing Tails, or Sonic being alone with that black screen.

But wow the graphics make the story much more cartoonish than it needs. At least add some textures to the Deadly Six. They look like gelatina.

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