Jump to content
Marco9966

Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

One's a bonus stage explicitly set in a bizarre pocket dimension containing a space-time warping stone, the other pops up in the middle of an otherwise desert themed zone with no story context and exists to make a pun.

That kind of ignores the fact that Sega had been attempting to cater specifically to Classic fans in some form or another in nearly every game for at last seven years before Mania, from 2D sections in Unleashed, to Classic in Generations, to Sonic 4. Even if SEGA wasn't always successful It's disingenuous to imply that Classic fans only got their way because of Taxman or that Adventure fans should have to make their own working prototype of Sonic Adventure 3 for SEGA to give them the time of day. Seriously, why are Adventure fans held to that standard when literally no other subset of any other fandom is.

Firstly, Lost Hex is an alien world, so you could argue that in itself is a bizarr...ity.

I also don’t see how 2D bits in Unleashed are a capitulation to Classic fans. I imagine they were done because building entirely 3D levels for the boost gameplay is an enormous drain on resources. Sonic 4 and all that sure, but none of that actually listened to what Classic fans wanted and in fact had more to do with Modern in the end (Modern design, Rush engine, etc). In fact, the game was supposed to be “Sonic DL” or “Sonic the Portable” going off PSN listings and ingame textures - it was probably intended as a more Sonic Advance styled affair until marketing got in the way.

Tax’s work isn’t the only reason, but it’s a fairly large part.

I don’t expect Adventure fans to rock up with SA3 made, but neither did Taxman. He developed the Retro Engine over the course of 5-10 years, remade a single level from CD, pitched it to SEGA, and got hired. Something comparable would be someone making an SA engine, remaking Emerald Coast satisfactorily, and pitching that to SEGA.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

That kind of ignores the fact that Sega had been attempting to cater specifically to Classic fans in some form or another in nearly every game for at last seven years before Mania, from 2D sections in Unleashed, to Classic in Generations, to Sonic 4. Even if SEGA wasn't always successful it's disingenuous to imply that Classic fans only got their way because of Taxman or that Adventure fans should have to make their own working prototype of Sonic Adventure 3 for SEGA to give them the time of day. Seriously, why are Adventure fans held to that standard when literally no other subset of any other fandom is.

Yeah, it's insane that fans have to make their own game to get what they have been begging for for 10 years!

What other company forgets how to make good games with good physics, and dozens of fan projects that are miles better than the company's games?

We still need to give push for this project though (this could be the next 3D Taxman, an equivalent to "Mania" for the adventure series): https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/comments/8lkdss/project_hero_progress_update/?st=jhkg2ad7&sh=590f30e9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

One's a bonus stage explicitly set in a bizarre pocket dimension containing a space-time warping stone, the other pops up in the middle of an otherwise desert themed zone with no story context and exists only to make a pun.

 

Alien planet.

Heh, if we can have zones with giant musical instruments co-exisiting with realistic cities, surely a world filled with donuts can co-exist with a desert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Adamis said:

Alien planet.

Heh, if we can have zones with giant musical instruments co-exisiting with realistic cities, surely a world filled with donuts can co-exist with a desert.

And a realistic human city, and a futuristic megalopolis, and a military armed base can exist too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Adamis said:

Alien planet.

Heh, if we can have zones with giant musical instruments co-exisiting with realistic cities, surely a world filled with donuts can co-exist with a desert.

Alien planet doesn't really cut it. The Lost Hex is still on the same plane of existence as Sonic's Earth so it should be operating on the basic rules of what's possible, same a Little Planet, the Black Comet, and Planet Wisp before it. You can get a bit weird, but it's not a license to discard logic entirely. Special stages exist in a different reality from the rest of the world so the surreal Twilight Zone-esque imagery they have is a bit more justified. 

 

Music Plant operates on the same principle as Sweet Mountain in that its strongly implied to be a man-made structure, unlike Dessert Ruins which is literally just a bunch giant Earth confectioneries floating in a featureless void on an alien planet for no apparent reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think we can agree that Sonic Lost World was kinda pants and doesn't adequitely reflect the desires of either Adventure fans or Classic fans in it's aesthetics. Can we not use it and its candy level as a strawman, now?

The same applies to Knuckles´ Chaotix and Shadow the Hedgehog. Despite the former not being done by Sonic Team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

Alien planet doesn't really cut it. The Lost Hex is still on the same plane of existence as Sonic's Earth so it should be operating on the basic rules of what's possible, same a Little Planet, the Black Comet, and Planet Wisp before it. You can get a bit weird, but it's not a license to discard logic entirely. Special stages exist in a different reality from the rest of the world so the surreal Twilight Zone-esque imagery they have is a bit more justified. 

 

Music Plant operates on the same principle as Sweet Mountain in that its strongly implied to be a man-made structure, unlike Dessert Ruins which is literally just a bunch giant Earth confectioneries floating in a featureless void on an alien planet for no apparent reason.

Something surreal in a desert...

Could it be...

 

A Mirage ? The whole food shtick would be a mirage Sonic has, either due to the heat, or something by the Deadly Six, just not explained by the story.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, superman43 said:

The same applies to Knuckles´ Chaotix and Shadow the Hedgehog. Despite the former not being done by Sonic Team.

Shadow sure, but I don’t see how Chaotix doesn’t fit the tone and aesthetics. The game was pretty bad, sure, but I’d say it’s a great example of how to do an Eggman occupied area without resorting to a relatively dull warzone like Forces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

Okay, sure. 

1) "Whimsical", I honestly threw in and probably shouldn't have. A lot of Sonic is quite whimsical. Whimsy isn't always positive, either.

2) "Lighthearted" is an antonym for words including troubled, sad, worried, and is linguistically one of the opposites for dark. You asserted that Hidden Palace Zone was very much not dark. That would make it light.

3) "Cutesy" is in the thread title and opening post, used by Yuji Naka to describe Sonic before SA1. So I would direct you to this thread in general 

So other than yourself the OP and and whoever was interpreting for Naka.

Nobody.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Adamis said:

Something surreal in a desert...

Could it be...

 

A Mirage ? The whole food shtick would be a mirage Sonic has, either due to the heat, or something by the Deadly Six, just not explained by the story.

 

 

If there were anything in game which even remotely implied it were a mirage, a dream, a hologram, or an artificial construct of any sort you'd hear me singing an entirely different tune. However, as it stands, there is nothing in Sonic Lost World which indicates to me that I am supposed to take the Sonic running on donuts floating in space as anything other than a natural occurrence. Dessert Ruins isn't an isolated case either, this kind of nonsensical shit happens all throughout Lost World, it's just the most egregious example.

Like Indigo Rush said:

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think we can agree that Sonic Lost World was kinda pants and doesn't adequitely reflect the desires of either Adventure fans or Classic fans in it's aesthetics. Can we not use it and its candy level as a strawman, now?

 

28 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

So other than yourself the OP and andwhoever translated the interview.

Nobody.

Is this going to be another one of those scenarios where you just write off anyone who's said something like that as an "SA3 crazy" who doesn't count (which, by the way, is a very open minded approach to people who disagree with you and is in no way detrimental to your ability to have an intelligent conversation with them)?

If not, than here is somebody (namely me) who described Colors and Lost World as "Sunshine and rainbows" which lacked any sort of intensity:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, if you want to be nitpicky...
If those donuts and candies are "natural occurences", where do the truffle cannons come from ? soluce-sonic-lost-world-desert-ruins-zon

I'll stick with the mirage idea. The background is trippy, and can you really tell me that those pancakes are "natural occurences" ?

soluce-sonic-lost-world-desert-ruins-zon

Heh, it could be something built by that yellow Zeti for all we know. We're on a planet in the sky of another's, planet that appeared out of nowhere. Surely it's possible for it to have something as outlandish as flying pastries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

is a very open minded approach to people who disagree with you and is in no way detrimental to your ability to have an intelligent conversation with them)?

It's really hard to try and have any form of conversation with those who believe the whole "Sonic was always serious" when nobody is ever put the argument forward that doesn't also undermine itself.

In the last few days the images posted that say 'look this is proof' totally contradicts itself when you look at the whole game.

So I'm waiting, and have been for a long time now for someone who genually believes sonic was a serioud thing, or was always dark... To make the argument.

Because who has ever used the phrases that are the popular put downs? The big bad media certainly hasn't, is it common terminology on here? Retro? Reddit? About it being cute or for babies 

Just that whenever this gets brought up, it seemed to originate from those who think the S.A. series are the bees knees, when elaborated, we get the same selective examples picked, but then it falls apart when you point out the problems.

After that the wall of silence goes up or 'I made it in paint images get posted which is the same flawed reasoning in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

I’ve been through this with you before, but Classic fans got Mania because Taxman and crew worked for over 10 years building up to it. I ain’t seen any Adventure fans do that - or at least not do it well (looking at you, World).

Quote

I don’t expect Adventure fans to rock up with SA3 made, but neither did Taxman. He developed the Retro Engine over the course of 5-10 years, remade a single level from CD, pitched it to SEGA, and got hired. Something comparable would be someone making an SA engine, remaking Emerald Coast satisfactorily, and pitching that to SEGA.

I feel like this is kind of a gross simplification of the process.

I don't like this implication going around that taxman had it right from the start and the Adventure fans just don't "get" it. There were mountains upon mountains of bad or unfinished games coming out of the community long before the Retro engine solidified itself. I'm okay with that stuff existing though because a lot of that stuff helped people feel out what worked and what didn't work in regards to what makes a good 2D Sonic game, what makes it feel right etc. The same goes for a lot of the trashy 3D engines to me. They're all helping us get somewhere in a way that the vast majority of Sonic fans sitting around and bitching at eachother frankly isn't. 

A lot of fans who like the Adventures are also more focused on the story. They ended up building their craft in art or writing. You'd think that maybe that's not going to be useful for developing a solid gameplay style, but they've been getting good press and making moves for the series in their own ways:

Image result for idw sonic the hedgehog

I used to read a lot of these guys's old fan works and..yeah, they've come a long way. 

These 3D game engines, even the less developed ones, are all a part of the grind. Work is being put in on Sonic by people who like the adventure games. Maybe not "Adventure fans" specifically, but I think that label is dumb, so yeah. 

Will anyone be fortunate enough to both develop a 3D Sonic engine that can be taken seriously professionally and have the connections to be able to pitch it and actually gain the development resources to make a full 3D game? In a world where a game like Mania was barely possible? I don't think the stars will quite align like that, but the enthusiasm is there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Josh said:

A lot of fans who like the Adventures are also more focused on the story. They ended up building their craft in art or writing. You'd think that maybe that's not going to be useful for developing a solid gameplay style, but they've been getting good press and making moves for the series in their own ways:

Image result for idw sonic the hedgehog

I used to read a lot of these guys's old fan works and..yeah, they've come a long way.

It's their actual full-time job too! How important is story to inspire people to become writers and illustrators and work on comics...

Don't underestimate Sonic Adventure boys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

It's really hard to try and have any form of conversation with those who believe the whole "Sonic was always serious" when nobody is ever put the argument forward that doesn't also undermine itself.

In the last few days the images posted that say 'look this is proof' totally contradicts itself when you look at the whole game.

So I'm waiting, and have been for a long time now for someone who genually believes sonic was a serioud thing, or was always dark... To make the argument.

Because who has ever used the phrases that are the popular put downs? The big bad media certainly hasn't, is it common terminology on here? Retro? Reddit? About it being cute or for babies 

Just that whenever this gets brought up, it seemed to originate from those who think the S.A. series are the bees knees, when elaborated, we get the same selective examples picked, but then it falls apart when you point out the problems.

After that the wall of silence goes up or 'I made it in paint images get posted which is the same flawed reasoning in the first place.

Ah... I think I see the problem here. When Adventure fans say "Sonic was always serious" you think they mean it was always po-faced head-up-its-ass pretentious a'la '06, when what they really mean is that it was always a straightforward action-adventure series which allowed for stakes and didn't treat everything like a joke. Not that they can't have moments of silliness or levity, but that those moments don't undercut dramatic tension.

Adventure fans venerate moments like these:

Spoiler

 

 

What grates on them is stuff like this:

Spoiler

 

Basically, Adventure fans are asking for Iron Man but you think they're asking for Batman Vs. Superman.

Of course, if you hold true to form, you're going to disregard what I said and reply with something along the lines of:

  • "You don't know what you're talking about."
  • "That's not what they mean."
  • "They mean they want something dull and and humorless like '06 and/or something superficially mature and gritty like Shadow."
  • "That's what you Adventure fans really want, even if you say otherwise."
  • "Why won't you just admit it?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before I shift the topic too much I would just like to say to @Mayor D that I am actually one of those who has always believed that there was serious aspects within the classic games (this is in total disregard to the Green Aesop angle) and found Sonic Adventure to actually be cheesy (even though I enjoyed it, but still). I've been playing Sonic since he debuted in 1991 and my all time favorite game in the franchise is still to this day Sonic CD. I will not argue that there is brightness in the game, but I will say that does not make it devoid of darker aspects either (the bad future, taking a hostage, and a death race). I can also state Morgan Webb when she was on X-Play as the first time I saw anyone refer to Sonic as cute. On the SEGA forums it was a stance I saw a number of people take and Deviantart is a decent place to look if you want to fin fans who openly perceive and depict Sonic as cute. Now there is nothing wrong with that at all, we all have the right to perceive the series in our own way. What is disingenuous is declaring that the franchise is either the cute extreme or the serious extreme. By nature of being an anthropomorphic mascot character Sonic is going to be visually cute if his expressions aren't used properly, but Naka's intention was for Sonic to be a "bad boy" as the translation puts it and his earlier concept art shows that Sonic has expressions that fit that image. However, even where Sonic's seriousness  and more impertinent and cheeky actions are displayed (his in game expressions and idle animations in Sonic 1 and CD) the very nature of a conflict is not a lighthearted matter. Eggman shoving animals in machines is not a lighthearted matter. These are things that were present in the first game of the series but weren't played as dark and serious, but were instead handled playfully through Eggman and his affiliated imagery. Now, your stance of SA3 fanboys being the only ones who see everything as dark and gritty, let me point you to SatAM fans who hate a goofy Eggman all the way down to his name because it is not threatening. SatAM treats Eggman as a maniacal tyrant whose portrayal could just as easily treat Sonic 1 as a hostage situation as easily as Sonic Adventure 2. Liking a more serious take on the franchise is not inherently affiliated with the adventure games only. I prefer a more serious take myself than Sonic being a wise cracking comedian in games like Colors and Sonic Boom, but I prefer it balanced with a sense of being in a whimsical world like Unleashed provides. I enjoy Sonic Adventure 2, but the extremes that Shadow took the themes in that game to disgarded all of the playfulness of the series and took it too far. The game does not present a world that feels worth partaking in to me, and from my own viewpoint only works if all you care about is watching Shadow being a moody badass. However, conflict is at the heart of most Sonic stories and that conflict does need some weight. Sonic CD I think handles it best as if you are playing it for the first time and are just exploring you will more likely than not end up in at least one bad future and see the consequences of letting Eggman have his way. He may be goofy but look what happens if you leave him alone. That desolate imagery can act as a motivation to act and if that doesn't do it, seeing Eggman resort to a kidnapping should. They are serious  matters that are balanced by being presented playfully. But to be certain, none of that addresses Naka's concern of Sonic starting to be perceived as too cute to where he would be going up against Hello Kitty.

 

So, addressing the thread topic itself again, let me ask everyone a simple question. In the translation of Naka's words he never intended for Sonic to be a cute character (this says nothing about the world and other characters or setting, just Sonic himself) citing Hello Kitty and her being unbeatable for why it would be bad for Sonic to be cute. It is because of this that he strove to bring back the "bad boy" image he was supposed to have come Adventure. This brings me to my question; do you think Naka,or anyone else involved with the franchise, was ever successful in portraying sonic as impertinent and cheeky either before or after the Adventure redesign. I personally don't think Naka himself was particularly successful, especially with the redesign, but I feel like with the sprites in 1 and CD, Toei's animation in CD, and Studio Pierrot's work on the OVA that there was some success in portraying Sonic how Naka intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was definitely a success in Sonic CD's animation, in the OVA movie, in the Sonic model from S3&K (that's a classic redesign if you ask me, different from Sonic 1 and 2).

Also successful in SA1 where Sonic chases down Eggman from the Egg Carrier all the way to the Mystic Ruins fortress where he defeats him in his Egg Viper.

Also successful in SA2 where he will not have it Shadow framing him.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

There was definitely a success in Sonic CD's animation, in the OVA movie, in the Sonic model from S3&K (that's a classic redesign if you ask me, different from Sonic 1 and 2).

Also successful in SA1 where Sonic chases down Eggman from the Egg Carrier all the way to the Mystic Ruins fortress where he defeats him in his Egg Viper.

Also successful in SA2 where he will not have it Shadow framing him.

 

 

Let me say something about Mania. We have the "Cute Sonic" from Generations here, but...

...I don´t really think there was really too much cutesy in the sprites or generally in all the stuff, like SM Adventures. The only moment when I thought Sonic is "cute" was when I saw the looking-up animation in Mania. I´ll admit that, but otherwise, I don´t see any. Correct me if I am wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, superman43 said:

Let me say something about Mania. We have the "Cute Sonic" from Generations here, but...

...I don´t really think there was really too much cutesy in the sprites or generally in all the stuff, like SM Adventures. The only moment when I thought Sonic is "cute" was when I saw the looking-up animation in Mania. I´ll admit that, but otherwise, I don´t see any. Correct me if I am wrong.

Outside of the looking up animation which felt like a case of thematic dissonance to me I can't think of any. On the other hand, I didn't think Tails came across as cute enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa Jesus Cramity! This is why people rant on this fandom, anyone with a level head will instantly know, as soon as the homie made this topic, that this was a never ending debate.

For some reason, we have it as; "it must be this or that" no compromise. Everyone misreads  everybody's comment, everyone has some sorta comeback. And you know what Sega's doing, trying to listen to one side or the other.

The Sonic series  is(and I can see this as a fact) Ying and Yang

Spoiler

 

Ying: Sonic's a cute wilderness animal living in bright beautiful islands

Yang:He has an attitude, cocks as all living shit, he has a mouth on him.

Yang:Some crazy mofo named Eggbotnik is trying to enslave shit and kill nature for his own goal of ruling the world

Ying:Eggbotnik is hopelessly a doofus, he's goofy, he screws up and his robots got a mouth on them too


 


These are what we know as facts, you can't deny these things.

 

So the number one question is, why the hell do we wanna split up Ying and Yang, causing unbalance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Outside of the looking up animation which felt like a case of thematic dissonance to me I can't think of any. On the other hand, I didn't think Tails came across as cute enough.

I kind of liked more serious Tails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@WakanoBaka I personally don't want to split things up. That's my problem when people want to say that Sonic was either never serious or never kid friendly. Most of my arguments end up being one sided though because I usually end up arguing against one of those two extremes. To me, Sonic works best when it is transitional from whimsical to serious, and serious while still being playful. When that balance is lost some games can be awfully aggravating, but when people try to argue that the games are only one extreme or the other I usually have to argue against that stance without supporting it just to try and show people that there is more than what they are seeing. It's admittedly not the best approach when looked at critically and shows that I need to work on my argument skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason why Sonic fanbase is split is that everyone views the character differently in terms of the spirit. I personally don´t care whether it´s Sonic from 90s, Adventures, 06 or the latest iteration. As long as I have fun with the games, it´s ok. And the spirit of it is still there, despite not having solified gameplay.

Actually, how I see it. Most of the people (usually) feel like Tails, quite shy, lacking in the terms of being heroic, not having really high self-esteem. And he tries to be Sonic, to believe in yourself, not to be scared of what could happen, because that´s how Sonic is. 

Forces despite being very meddling as a game, still it has the spirit. "You gotta keep moving forward, no matter what, yeah." And the next phrase truly is that Avatar should symbolize like if you were with Sonic there. That´s why it has quite low focus on Sonic and high on Avatar. But almost every game would polarize the fanbase, even a truly good one, like Mania. Or basically any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Ah... I think I see the problem here. When Adventure fans say "Sonic was always serious" you think they mean it was always po-faced head-up-its-ass pretentious a'la '06, when what they really mean is that it was always a straightforward action-adventure series which allowed for stakes and didn't treat everything like a joke. Not that they can't have moments of silliness or levity, but that those moments don't undercut dramatic tension.

Adventure fans venerate moments like these:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

What grates on them is stuff like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Basically, Adventure fans are asking for Iron Man but you think they're asking for Batman Vs. Superman.

Of course, if you hold true to form, you're going to disregard what I said and reply with something along the lines of:

  • "You don't know what you're talking about."
  • "That's not what they mean."
  • "They mean they want something dull and and humorless like '06 and/or something superficially mature and gritty like Shadow."
  • "That's what you Adventure fans really want, even if you say otherwise."
  • "Why won't you just admit it?"

Exactly! We're not asking for PUNISHER nor SQUIRREL GIRL kinda stories, but more like Iron-Man, Spiderman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.