Is the idea of Shadow getting his own game(done right) possible?

[Tarnish]

37 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Also, shadow's best portrayal comes after heroes... so what are you talking about?

Now obviously tastes differ, but for me Shadow's best portrayal was in Sonic Adventure 2 and to an extent Heroes. For a start, his first voice actor David Humphrey fitted the character much better, being able to express a larger variety of emotions and moods and just having a more fitting voice in general. Starting with Jason Griffith, they made him this emo sounding guy all the time. And the less said about Kirk Thornton's performance the better ("Yu gattis Sanic!" anyone?).

Second, his personality went from interesting and mysterious to simply boring. In Sonic Adventure 2, although being shown to be evil and want nothing than to bring destruction to the world at first, it is slowly revealed he is capable of showing care to people, even going as far to shedding a tear when he remembers his true promise to Maria and eventually risk his own life to correct his mistakes and keep his promise to the person he cared for. In Heroes, he was shown he's capable of making snarky comments ("Is that so..well then, it will be a date to DIE for!") as well as having casual banter (with Rouge at the end of the final cutscene in the Dark Story). His relationship to different characters seemed different: friends with Maria, rivalry with Sonic and somewhat friendly to Rouge. That slowly turned into basically being hostile with everyone. When he rescued Rouge in Sonic 2006, he basically told her to f*** off when she tried starting a conversation ("My assignment was to rescue you, nothing more!"). In short, he turned into this emo kind of character who would seemingly rather not talk to anybody, and his character became "concentrate on the mission and nothing else".

Also, on the contrary, I really like Shadow as a character. Or more precisely I LIKED him when he was interesting and he served a purpose/had a story to tell.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Tarnish said:

Now obviously tastes differ, but for me Shadow's best portrayal was in Sonic Adventure 2 and to an extent Heroes. For a start, his first voice actor David Humphrey fitted the character much better, being able to express a larger variety of emotions and moods and just having a more fitting voice in general. Starting with Jason Griffith, they made him this emo sounding guy all the time. And the less said about Kirk Thornton's performance the better ("Yu gattis Sanic!" anyone?).

Second, his personality went from interesting and mysterious to simply boring. In Sonic Adventure 2, although being shown to be evil and want nothing than to bring destruction to the world at first, it is slowly revealed he is capable of showing care to people, even going as far to shedding a tear when he remembers his true promise to Maria and eventually risk his own life to correct his mistakes and keep his promise to the person he cared for. In Heroes, he was shown he's capable of making snarky comments ("Is that so..well then, it will be a date to DIE for!") as well as having casual banter (with Rouge at the end of the final cutscene in the Dark Story). His relationship to different characters seemed different: friends with Maria, rivalry with Sonic and somewhat friendly to Rouge. That slowly turned into basically being hostile with everyone. When he rescued Rouge in Sonic 2006, he basically told her to f*** off when she tried starting a conversation ("My assignment was to rescue you, nothing more!"). In short, he turned into this emo kind of character who would seemingly rather not talk to anybody, and his character became "concentrate on the mission and nothing else".

What are you talking about with sonic 06, that's literally the best portrayal of the character. The entire games story is about him coming to terms with people might always hate him for who he is and him deciding to do the right thing anyway. Please point me to whatever scene you are talking about, and I will explain to you why you are strait up incorrect on your assessment.

And he isn't hostile to everyone, again the plot of sonic 06 is him doing the right thing to help everyone despite it actively going to bite him in the ass later. And his game is literally where the final story suggests you did the good plot the whole time which requires you to actively help characters. Yes, he's a bit blunt and he doesn't like talking, but that doesn't translate to actively hostility or aggression.  

Do you understand like? Characterization?

[Tarnish]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

What are you talking about with sonic 06, that's literally the best portrayal of the character. The entire games story is about him coming to terms with people might always hate him for who he is and him deciding to do the right thing anyway. Please point me to whatever scene you are talking about, and I will explain to you why you are strait up incorrect on your assessment.

And he isn't hostile to everyone, again the plot of sonic 06 is him doing the right thing to help everyone despite it actively going to bite him in the ass later. And his game is literally where the final story suggests you did the good plot the whole time which requires you to actively help characters. Yes, he's a bit blunt and he doesn't like talking, but that doesn't translate to actively hostility or aggression.  

Do you understand like? Characterization?

You can try all day, you won't convince me. The fact remains, I liked his portrayal in Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes, and I haven't in any game after that. They went from one characterization to a different characterization, and I don't approve of that change.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Tarnish said:

You can try all day, you won't convince me. The fact remains, I liked his portrayal in Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes, and I haven't in any game after that. They went from one characterization to a different characterization, and I don't approve of that change.

You can like that, that's ok. I'm trying to get you point to what active hostility? Sonic 06 is literally one of the most selfless things he's done with his entire characterization. I'm just trying to figure out what what scene you might have interpreted wrong, or maybe I missed something

[Tarnish]

17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You can like that, that's ok. I'm trying to get you point to what active hostility? Sonic 06 is literally one of the most selfless things he's done with his entire characterization. I'm just trying to figure out what what scene you might have interpreted wrong, or maybe I missed something

By the way, I never said my issue was he still decided to fight against Mephilis even tho he knew the humans would turn on him. My issue is with the finer details of his character. His current voice, the way he acts to other characters, the way he speaks.

And the scene I'm referring to is after the first stage in Shadow's story in Sonic 2006. After walking silently together, Rouge asks Shadow "Don't you want to know what this is?" (referring to the Sceptre of Darkness or whatever it was), to which Shadow replies "My assignment was to rescue you, nothing more!" as if talking to her was too much of a request suddenly, even tho he was much more willing to strike a conversation with her in previous games.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Tarnish said:

By the way, I never said my issue was he still decided to fight against Mephilis even tho he knew the humans would turn on him. My issue is with the finer details of his character. His current voice, the way he acts to other characters, the way he speaks.

And the scene I'm referring to is after the first stage in Shadow's story in Sonic 2006. After walking silently together, Rouge asks Shadow "Don't you want to know what this is?" (referring to the Sceptre of Darkness or whatever it was), to which Shadow replies "My assignment was to rescue you, nothing more!" as if talking to her was too much of a request suddenly, even tho he was much more willing to strike a conversation with her in previous games.

...Maybe he just didn't care?

 

[Tarnish]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

...Maybe he just didn't care?

There would have been better ways to imply that. I think a snarky comment like "Let me guess, a spectre with the ability to locate gems?" would have been far better. It would sound less hostile, be somewhat humorous to the player and imply he knows/still remembers her real interests.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

There would have been better ways to imply that. I think a snarky comment like "Let me guess, a spectre with the ability to locates gems?" would have been far better. It would sound less hostile, be somewhat humorous to the player and imply he knows/still remembers her real interests.

While I think that way conveyed, I would be a liar to pretend that sonic 06 had uh... the best writing. 

[WakanoBaka]

ONly time I can see Shadow getting another games is if he's along side Sonic, kinda like 06 or Forces' Episode Shadow.

On 5/22/2018 at 1:12 AM, Tarnish said:

And the scene I'm referring to is after the first stage in Shadow's story in Sonic 2006. After walking silently together, Rouge asks Shadow "Don't you want to know what this is?" (referring to the Sceptre of Darkness or whatever it was), to which Shadow replies "My assignment was to rescue you, nothing more!" as if talking to her was too much of a request suddenly, even tho he was much more willing to strike a conversation with her in previous games.

Shadow always had a straight to the point personality, no matter what era. I thought it was rather fitting.

[Diogenes]

He was just being tsundere.

[NezumiVA]

06 isn't canonical anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Besides that, Shadowlax, not to sound rude but...I think you're kind of missing the point of what was being said about Shadow's narrative. The point isn't that he can't do new things, it's that his big narrative arc as introduced in SA2 was wrapped in Shadow the Hedgehog. His characterization until that point was focused very heavily on a desire to know his true purpose, details of his past, and the truth of the information surrounding his origin/the professor/Maria/etc. - Shadow the Hedgehog, while received poorly, did in fact answer all of those things for the most part.

Shadow's character arc then comes to a full circle when, after having saved the world from Black Doom, he has ascertained in himself who he believes himself to be going forward - severing his ties with his past and effectively moving on from it. 

Anytime you see him in the series post SHTH, he never really brings it all up again. 06 Was meant to be a reboot of the franchise that not only retcons itself at the end, but could be considered noncanon because it's working off of the intended framework of a franchise reboot that was ditched when received poorly. What I'm basically saying is that Shadow has resigned to the back row because he's done with what he set out to accomplish. His demons don't trouble him anymore, he's moved on. 

Another solo Shadow Adventure would seem forced at the very least, seeing as he's content with where he is, and has no underlying character conflict to explore at this point that necessitates him being solo focus.

[Tarnish]

8 hours ago, WakanoBaka said:

Shadow always had a straight to the point personality, no matter what era. I thought it was rather fitting.

Maybe the intent was the same, but the voice actor, the delivery of the lines and his body language to me makes Shadow feel like a completely different character in 06.

[Tarnish]

8 hours ago, SilentlyVocal said:

Another solo Shadow Adventure would seem forced at the very least, seeing as he's content with where he is, and has no underlying character conflict to explore at this point that necessitates him being solo focus.

I agree. And if I'm perfectly honest, looking back at it, I don't understand why he needed his own game to tell the story of his past. Some probably won't agree with me, but I think the story telling structure of Sonic Adventure 2 would have been more fitting than putting Shadow in the focus. Similarly to Adventure 2 (or probably even more so), the events in Shadow affect the whole planet with the Black Arms invading and everything. Yet, (tho I'm going on memory here) unlike in Adventure 2 where we see each characters motivation, involvement and role/actions throughout the story, in Shadow we barely see any, only small snippets, and those are there to just have a Hero mission for the stages more than anything. What I'm trying to get at, is that IMO it would have been interesting seeing how the other characters (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles etc.) see and experience the events unfold, their motivations (was the Master Emerald in trouble again or were the Black Arms attacking Angel Island that Knuckles set out to help?) and their role and actions throughout the story. Sure, the main intent was to tell Shadow's story, but with the planet under attack, it's not like the other characters, especially Sonic is suddenly just a tag-along companion for Shadow, he goes his own way as we know and we never saw that in Shadow.

[Shadowlax]

10 hours ago, Diogenes said:

He was just being tsundere.

Tsundere is something shadow has never been, it implies he secretly cares. 

Most of the time, he actually doesn't. He got shit do

10 hours ago, SilentlyVocal said:

06 isn't canonical anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It is though?

Its like spiderman one more day, and the clone saga. It is, they just stopped talking about because everyone thought it was the worst. But those occurred, and brought characters into the fold had narratives that effected them.

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Besides that, Shadowlax, not to sound rude but...I think you're kind of missing the point of what was being said about Shadow's narrative. The point isn't that he can't do new things, it's that his big narrative arc as introduced in SA2 was wrapped in Shadow the Hedgehog. His characterization until that point was focused very heavily on a desire to know his true purpose, details of his past, and the truth of the information surrounding his origin/the professor/Maria/etc. - Shadow the Hedgehog, while received poorly, did in fact answer all of those things for the most part.

I got that point, that's not a reason to give him a new story like the person said. I see this argument often, with multiple characters, in multiple mediums over my life. Its a shit argument. Just give them another story, I've been reading batman getting over his parents dying for like... most of my fucking life.And they add new dynamics and new things for him to deal with to keep it interesting. Heck if you read the comics... they already did it with shadow in the comics, it caused one of the best characterizations of knuckles , funnily enough.  If you can write a damn story , you can write a damn story. 

Quote

Shadow's character arc then comes to a full circle when, after having saved the world from Black Doom, he has ascertained in himself who he believes himself to be going forward - severing his ties with his past and effectively moving on from it. 

 

Quote

Anytime you see him in the series post SHTH, he never really brings it all up again. 06 Was meant to be a reboot of the franchise that not only retcons itself at the end, but could be considered noncanon because it's working off of the intended framework of a franchise reboot that was ditched when received poorly. What I'm basically saying is that Shadow has resigned to the back row because he's done with what he set out to accomplish. His demons don't trouble him anymore, he's moved on. 

 

He can do new shit and have new experiences, like other characters. And people in real life. 

Your point literally means nothing. Especially when they already did it with shadow in the comics, all you are indicating is your lack of imagination. Because its a thing that already got done, it already happened. And it could hapen again.

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Another solo Shadow Adventure would seem forced at the very least, seeing as he's content with where he is, and has no underlying character conflict to explore at this point that necessitates him being solo focus.

Not at all, his perspective is interesting and it would be interesting to see him go out and do shit. 

Come back when you actually have a point.  Because your point is , as of currently " I lack imagination " If you directed sonic, it would end at one. 

[Marco9966]

Why not also get a game about Espio or Blaze.

There so many underused characters that deserves their own game! I mean a Ninja, or a Pyrokinetic don't have their own game! Imagine the gaming possibilies.

[SKSpawn]

Wow, I must have blinked and missed the part where Shadow was more in demand than Metal Sonic 

Back when Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes came out, it seemed all you ever heard were complaints about how the evil/dark clone of Sonic was already perfected with Metal and that fans were begging for his return and disappointed with his portrayal in Heroes.

I know people who had played the Drift games but I never knew anyone with a Mega-CD because, back then, no one could afford it. If they had gotten one, I'm sure people would have played Sonic CD. Either way, they knew of a metal version of Sonic thanks to the Master System and Mega Drive versions (back then, it was assumed that Silver and Mecha Sonic were the same as Metal Sonic).

No doubt Shadow is very popular but I didn't realise that his popularity had eclipsed Metal's, especially to the point where you'd rather play as Shadow in a 2D title than Metal.

[Diogenes]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Tsundere is something shadow has never been, it implies he secretly cares. 

Most of the time, he actually doesn't. He got shit do

Shame, I guess even the dumb joke I made makes him out to be a more interesting character than he actually is.

[JosepHenry]

@Shadowlax Shadow does care, what are you talking about? Why would he save Sonic (of all people) from Silver? I much rather think that he is "tsundere" then just think that he doesn't care about anyone, that's dumb. Even his response to Rouge seem very "Is not that I like you, baka!". He cares about his friends. He is just doing the "cool guys don't care" thing when he does. ... At least, that's my take on him. (Which also makes him a more likable character tbh.)

... And I kinda agree with @Tarnish about Shadow's more emotive personality being kinda forgotten after Heroes, because Heroes actually had my favorite portrayal of Shadow, yes he has the amnensia drama and he tries to kill Sonic when they first meet after the events of SA2, but he knows how the be snarky, sarcastic, have fun, and even smile by just hearing his voice. Props the David Humphrey by doing a great job with that. '06 Shadow is alright but he never changes expression on his voice, that hurts him a bit for me.

[Tarnish]

3 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

... And I kinda agree with @Tarnish about Shadow's more emotive personality being kinda forgotten after Heroes, because Heroes actually had my favorite portrayal of Shadow, yes he has the amnensia drama and he tries to kill Sonic when they first meet after the events of SA2, but he knows how the be snarky, sarcastic, have fun, and even smile by just hearing his voice. Props the David Humphrey by doing a great job with that. '06 Shadow is alright but he never changes expression on his voice, that hurts him a bit for me.

Good to finally know I'm not the only one to think that. =P

Yeah, he's the dark, serious, "focus on the mission" guy, but to make him that ALL THE TIME just makes him a bland, boring, one dimensional character. To show he is capable and willing to be snarky, sarcastic, have fun, and even smile (evilly or genuinely) given the right circumstances, does not take away from his character, in fact it makes it more interesting.

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, SKSpawn said:

(back then, it was assumed that Silver and Mecha Sonic were the same as Metal Sonic)

Yeah, I kinda wish they were the same A.I.

[Sonic Fan J]

7 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Yeah, I kinda wish they were the same A.I.

I used to always think they were and that Metal Sonic's A.I. was simply linked to whatever the most current body was allowing him to keep being rebuilt without losing his memories and allowing his grudge against Sonic to build.

On topic though

34 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Good to finally know I'm not the only one to think that. =P

Yeah, he's the dark, serious, "focus on the mission" guy, but to make him that ALL THE TIME just makes him a bland, boring, one dimensional character. To show he is capable and willing to be snarky, sarcastic, have fun, and even smile (evilly or genuinely) given the right circumstances, does not take away from his character, in fact it makes it more interesting.

True. While I do enjoy Shadow's portrayal in 06 myself, I won't argue that his more playful side is definitely absent. You may see his caring side on occasion with Omega, but in 06 you'd never get a witty line like "Your adventuring days are coming to an end!" He is after all supposed to be a darker Sonic and that means that some playfulness should still be kept intact. Even Metal Sonic who is supposed to be Sonic in every way except having his sense of justice and heart of gold still has his moments which aren't all killer robot all the time.

[NezumiVA]

@ShadowlaxHaha, wow, lack of imagination is not something I've heard directed at me very often. I'm not sure why you're being so hostile dude, it's just my two cents, no need to get angry here.

In any case, sure, Shadow can have plenty of new experiences - I'm not saying he can't, but retreading ground regarding his past would, at this point, seem contradictory and regressive to the way his character arc wrapped up in the first place, imo. There's doing new spins on things, and then there's just beating a dead horse, which could often times be a detriment to the character rather than a help. Shadow's central character arc was very centrally focused on the theme of moving on and becoming content with himself, to go back to the MY PAST material would just kind of...invalidate all that, whether other popular franchises have done so or not. But that's just my take. I don't claim to be the expert.

As for doing new things with Shadow? Sure, it's technically possible. I just don't quite know what that would be - and given the poor reception of his first solo game, and the general climate of the Sonic fanbase right now, I think it just wouldn't be a smart idea to put on the table. Not for a long while, at least.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, SilentlyVocal said:

@ShadowlaxHaha, wow, lack of imagination is not something I've heard directed at me very often. I'm not sure why you're being so hostile dude, it's just my two cents, no need to get angry here.

In any case, sure, Shadow can have plenty of new experiences - I'm not saying he can't, but retreading ground regarding his past would, at this point, seem contradictory and regressive to the way his character arc wrapped up in the first place, imo. There's doing new spins on things, and then there's just beating a dead horse, which could often times be a detriment to the character rather than a help. Shadow's central character arc was very centrally focused on the theme of moving on and becoming content with himself, to go back to the MY PAST material would just kind of...invalidate all that, whether other popular franchises have done so or not. But that's just my take. I don't claim to be the expert.

As for doing new things with Shadow? Sure, it's technically possible. I just don't quite know what that would be - and given the poor reception of his first solo game, and the general climate of the Sonic fanbase right now, I think it just wouldn't be a smart idea to put on the table. Not for a long while, at least.

But they did both of those things, already. In the comics, people liked it and it was fine. You are making a point that's already addressed. You can buy it it, I believe the sonic universe arcs are called "Shadow Fall " and "Eclipse " or something like that . It already happened, it was fine. 

Its quite literally your lack of imagination on the subject. 

[NezumiVA]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But they did both of those things, already. In the comics, people liked it and it was fine. You are making a point that's already addressed. You can buy it it, I believe the sonic universe arcs are called "Shadow Fall " and "Eclipse " or something like that . It already happened, it was fine. 

Its quite literally your lack of imagination on the subject. 

Okay first of all, please back off a little bit. I'm not being rude to you, I would appreciate the same courtesy.
Second of all, Archie Sonic is a far different universe from the mainline games - both in lore and in characterization depth, not to mention characterization differences. 

Not wanting to retread old ground isn't a lack of imagination, it's...foresight? Do new things, by all means, I'm just of the mentality that buckling back into Shadow is a waste of time and resources at this specific point in time. Your correlation between imagination and just reasonable foresight into what your majority mainstream audience wants/would buy is just not at all related. Insulting my creativity, subsequently is just unnecessary. 

[Shadowlax]

6 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

@Shadowlax Shadow does care, what are you talking about? Why would he save Sonic (of all people) from Silver? I much rather think that he is "tsundere" then just think that he doesn't care about anyone, that's dumb. Even his response to Rouge seem very "Is not that I like you, baka!". He cares about his friends. He is just doing the "cool guys don't care" thing when he does. ... At least, that's my take on him. (Which also makes him a more likable character tbh.)

I didn't say shadow doesn't care about anything. He didn't care about that we were talking about in reference to sonic 06. I have a whole post in another thread to dash speed about how shadow cares. You are confusing, not caring about a specific thing with not caring at all. Like dash speed. And if you think he's tsundere... you don't understand shadow the hedgehog at all.

There's this series of panels in the comic, where basically a complete stranger asks shadow "who is he". He then was about to proceed to answer  before he's interrupted by her face turning into a mosquito. Shadow isn't tsundere because shadow isn't shy about his feelings. If you ask shadow how he feels... he'll just tell you. Unless its a situation where he really doesn't need to tell you, he'll just tell you shit. Tsundere comes with a slight of hand, a concealing of emotions. Shadow wears all his emotions on his damn sleeve, he just has a hell of a pokerface. These people exist in real life, I'm that person. If you ask me what's up i'll tell you. But I kind look angry a lot. 

Shadow's a strait shooter, he's kinda always been. I think the only time he wasn't was in SA2 when tricking eggman, but that's about it. But that just plays into the " will do anything to get the job done " trope.Which is also what he is. 

He cares about things, he's just out of everyone the most willing to tell you when he doesn't care. And instance, he just...didn't care. 

 

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Shame, I guess even the dumb joke I made makes him out to be a more interesting character than he actually is.

If you think that being a tsundere makes you an interesting character than... well I wont judge you. But I'll leave it at , " i disagree" . I think that character being nuanced enough to you know actively have domain over what he does and does not care about. And having a narrative where's forced to care and make choices, is an interesting character than can hold a story. You on other other hand think sakura haruno is good... because tropes is characterization in your eyes. 

So you know, you do you. 

OH well, i'll be over here with my bad characters. Woops, batman is a bad character because he didn't care about that one thing that one time. That's how you view characters right?

8 minutes ago, SilentlyVocal said:

Okay first of all, please back off a little bit. I'm not being rude to you, I would appreciate the same courtesy.
Second of all, Archie Sonic is a far different universe from the mainline games - both in lore and in characterization depth, not to mention characterization differences. 

Not wanting to retread old ground isn't a lack of imagination, it's...foresight? Do new things, by all means, I'm just of the mentality that buckling back into Shadow is a waste of time and resources at this specific point in time. Your correlation between imagination and just reasonable foresight into what your majority mainstream audience wants/would buy is just not at all related. Insulting my creativity, subsequently is just unnecessary. 

I'm me say this upfront. I apologize if my brash statements seem like they are intended to hurt you. I don't wish to hurt you. 

That said, I mean the statement " lack of imagination " in its entirety. You said story wise a situation wouldn't work, I argued that not only could it, it already happened and did. Also , Eh, i'm talking about reboot Archie which much much more inline with the video games. So like I said. It occurred, your inability to imagine a situation where that works isn't a flaw with the character, its literally a lack of imagination on your part. Because someone imagined it, and you failed to. That doesn't indicate that you are lesser of a person, but rather that argument isn't very good. I'm not going to think less of you because of views of shadow the hedgehog. But I am going to point out fallacies.

Also in those things aren't related. You are correct, that's why I only argued the story aspect. If you believe that they shouldn't make a shadow game... then thats it. I can't really make you not believe that. I'm just saying a lot of your story based reasoning for not doing so isn't really based in anything. If you wanna make the argument that game wouldn't sell, I mean I could argue you. But outside of rhetoric I can't make you agree with me either. I personality think sonic becoming more of a managed brand with smaller more well done games like short mainline games and spin offs made by other compies is where it should go. I think there's is a lot of money in sonic embracing its brand and characters. And I think a one that's still the most popular one, shadow, could be used do something with that. But that's just me