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Is the idea of Shadow getting his own game(done right) possible?


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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

your inability to imagine a situation where that works isn't a flaw with the character

Maybe I came across incorrectly here than I had intended to -- I never believed there to be a flaw with Shadow's character. I like him a lot, and I think his narrative, while it could have been handled a lot better than in his solo game (I never really much cared for the Black Arms, and thought Aliens was kind of a lazy plot device) was decently compelling, moreso to me in Adventure 2.

I just think that specifically the narrative revolving around his backstory is a moot point by now. Narratively, it came full circle when he decided to never look back (haha get it) and just get on with his life. Which he did. Going back and focusing on Gerald/The ARK/Black Arms etc. again would just feel...like it's defeating the point they were trying to make before. If you have a big narrative that ends very pointedly with I'm Moving On only to then swing back into what was being moved on from, it makes the ending to that narrative from before feel pointless and without the weight it was supposed to carry.

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I disagree! One because the comics did it and, it was interesting. But two, there's a lot of wiggle room. I'm not saying he needs to full go into maria mode. No one is asking for that, shadow's an alien science experient. I kind of would like to learn more about the black arms, and any future effects that could have on his body. Like special trasformations, or new abilities that popup overtime as he matures. Those are things that while moving forward, requires to go back an expand, and this interests me. I don't think that takes away from anothing... it just adds to who he is. And again... the comics... already did it, was fine. 

Like literally go find those books, they will quell your fears... well unless you like team dark. Then those books will make you question why team dark even exists. Omega and Rouge are kinda very useless in a lot of situations

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7 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

And I kinda agree with @Tarnish about Shadow's more emotive pepersonality being kinda forgotten after Heroes, because Heroes actually had my favorite portrayal of Shadow, yes he has the amnensia drama and he tries to kill Sonic when they first meet after the events of SA2, but he knows how the be snarky, sarcastic, have fun, and even smile by just hearing his voice. Props the David Humphrey by doing a great job with that. '06 Shadow is alright but he never changes expression on his voice, that hurts him a bit for me.

That might just be the fact that he's probably TOTALLY devoted to the mission. In short...acting like a robot...kinda

40 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow wears all his emotions on his damn sleeve, he just has a hell of a pokerface. These people exist in real life, I'm that person. If you ask me what's up i'll tell you. But I kind look angry a lot. 

I'm the same tbh

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51 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

If you think that being a tsundere makes you an interesting character than... well I wont judge you.

More interesting than a character who doesn't care.

51 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But I'll leave it at , " i disagree" . I think that character being nuanced enough to you know actively have domain over what he does and does not care about. And having a narrative where's forced to care and make choices, is an interesting character than can hold a story. You on other other hand think sakura haruno is good... because tropes is characterization in your eyes. 

So you know, you do you. 

OH well, i'll be over here with my bad characters. Woops, batman is a bad character because he didn't care about that one thing that one time. That's how you view characters right?

What in the fuck are you even talking about? Nothing of this even remotely resembles anything I've said.

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I wish Sega didn't decide to have Shadow emote less to not at all as time went on. I love how pompous he could get in SA2 and I miss that side to him.

Shadow does care, he just doesn't see the need to act like he does. I can see the tsundere comparison, but it's not quite that. Shadow doesn't shift personalities for one, he's flatly stoic whether he's helping or not. He's also likely aware he's not expressing himself, which goes against the usual trope. He's quiet and mission focused for the most part, not much more to it than that.

I don't think another Shadow solo title makes sense, there's really nothing Shadow can bring to the table on his own. I'd love to see a title similar to SA2 that shows an adventure from Sonic and Shadow's perspectives. Maybe give Shadow some combat moves that slows him down a bit while Sonic keeps the emphasis on high speed. Make them similar but distinct.

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6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

More interesting than a character who doesn't care.

What in the fuck are you even talking about? Nothing of this even remotely resembles anything I've said.

You did say that, you said because he didn't care about that one think that one time he doesn't care about anything. And thus not interesting. Not caring about one thing in a plot equals not an interesting character to you. That is what you said, because that is what you were responding to.

 

4 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

I don't think another Shadow solo title makes sense, there's really nothing Shadow can bring to the table on his own. I'd love to see a title similar to SA2 that shows an adventure from Sonic and Shadow's perspectives. Maybe give Shadow some combat moves that slows him down a bit while Sonic keeps the emphasis on high speed. Make them similar but distinct.

I would argue he can bring a lot. And combat moves is what will ruin a potential sonic game. I think  alot of the problem with sonic games, and I will say this as a staunch defender of SA2 , but some of the problems with the adventure games is that they are doing 6 gameplay styles. Instead of focusing on a good one. 

I think instead of doing that, Make a short character action game with shadow. Gameplay wise, to put it simply, shadow was literally made for a character action game. And what he can do as a character has much more potential in that field, that it does in sonic proper to be honest. 

If you want an example of how he might play, look up virgil from DMC4 special edition. Its a thing of beauty 

And I don't mean this just for shadow. I want a tresure hunting game with kknuckles, and I want a mech battle game for tails, I think these things would be more interesting when focused on instead of shoved into as sonic game half assed

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

You did say that, you said because he didn't care about that one think that one time he doesn't care about anything. And thus not interesting. Not caring about one thing in a plot equals not an interesting character to you. That is what you said, because that is what you were responding to.

Insisting it doesn't make it true.

Shadow has basically never openly cared about anything but Maria, and by '06 he's moved on from her, so either he's tsundere or he's uncaring.

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On 5/23/2018 at 8:06 PM, SilentlyVocal said:

In any case, sure, Shadow can have plenty of new experiences - I'm not saying he can't, but retreading ground regarding his past would, at this point, seem contradictory and regressive to the way his character arc wrapped up in the first place, imo.

I wouldn't put ignoring the previous games and trying to rewrite Shadow's story arc past SEGA if they felt like it. I mean, they did it twice already...with Blaze, she was from an alternate dimension in Rush, then from the future in '06, and with Silver who was from the future in '06, then in the present timeline in Forces..You just never know with SEGA/Sonic Team, they sure as hell not interested in creating a coherent world/universe for Sonic..

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25 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I wouldn't put ignoring the previous games and trying to rewrite Shadow's story arc past SEGA if they felt like it. I mean, they did it twice already...with Blaze, she was from an alternate dimension in Rush, then from the future in '06, and with Silver who was from the future in '06, then in the present timeline in Forces..You just never know with SEGA/Sonic Team, they sure as hell not interested in creating a coherent world/universe for Sonic..

At least they didn't explain why Silver is in Forces. Leave this ambiguous.

At least they didn't try to give an explanation like they gave for Classic Sonic from a parallel world!

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35 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I wouldn't put ignoring the previous games and trying to rewrite Shadow's story arc past SEGA if they felt like it. I mean, they did it twice already...with Blaze, she was from an alternate dimension in Rush, then from the future in '06, and with Silver who was from the future in '06, then in the present timeline in Forces..You just never know with SEGA/Sonic Team, they sure as hell not interested in creating a coherent world/universe for Sonic..

Silver is still from the future.

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44 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

At least they didn't explain why Silver is in Forces. Leave this ambiguous.

At least they didn't try to give an explanation like they gave for Classic Sonic from a parallel world!

You try to make it sound like them not explaining it is a good thing. I sure as hell don't see a character who was previously shown to be hundreds of years from the future suddenly appearing without rhyme or reason a positive thing. I see it as a sign of them not knowing what to do with their characters, so they just randomly use them becasue why not, might as well use those character models again.

With that kind of logic, they could have included Tikal and Maria Robotnik as well. "Let the fans come up with a reason why those characters are there."

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51 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

You try to make it sound like them not explaining it is a good thing. I sure as hell don't see a character who was previously shown to be hundreds of years from the future suddenly appearing without rhyme or reason a positive thing. I see it as a sign of them not knowing what to do with their characters, so they just randomly use them becasue why not, might as well use those character models again.

With that kind of logic, they could have included Tikal and Maria Robotnik as well. "Let the fans come up with a reason why those characters are there."

It's insane when the fans know better than the company. They got to be trolling at this point with all their shitty decisions. Don't forget they also hyped Shadow as a villain who is I QUOTE "Fightng for his own reasons". They just lied to us, LIED.

Another bad decision is bringing Classic Sonic back and make him a separate character from Sonic which is the worst of the worst decisions ever.

-Bring Classic Sonic to attract classicists = check

-Show that Shadow and Chaos are (falsely) villains to attract adventurists = check

-Bring in the worst character designed Zavok to attract modernists = check.

Forces was a failure because it wanted to satisfy everybody, and at the end NO ONE was satisfied. If they ever gonna do a Shadow game, they must only appeal to the adventurists!

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19 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

It's insane when the fans know better than the company. They got to be trolling at this point with all their shitty decisions. Don't forget they also hyped Shadow as a villain who is I QUOTE "Fightng for his own reasons". They just lied to us, LIED.

Another bad decision is bringing Classic Sonic back and make him a separate character from Sonic which is the worst of the worst decisions ever.

-Bring Classic Sonic to attract classicists = check

-Show that Shadow and Chaos are (falsely) villains to attract adventurists = check

-Bring in the worst character designed Zavok to attract modernists = check.

Forces was a failure because it wanted to satisfy everybody, and at the end NO ONE was satisfied. If they ever gonna do a Shadow game, they must only appeal to the adventurists!

I agree, once you try to please everyone, you are bound to fail.

What was the reason Iizuka (or whoever it was) was trying to give regarding why does some games have humans, why some don't? That Sonic and co. are jumping between planets/dimensions, one with humans and one without? To me it sounds more like they are just applying bandages trying to glue the pieces together because they never bothered to properly think things trough.

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17 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I agree, once you try to please everyone, you are bound to fail.

What was the reason Iizuka (or whoever it was) was trying to give regarding why does some games have humans, why some don't? That Sonic and co. are jumping between planets/dimensions, one with humans and one without? To me it sounds more like they are just applying bandages trying to glue the pieces together because they never bothered to properly think things trough.

Iizuka is lucky we're still sticking around with all these bad decisions (including the lies about Shadow)

Normally we would leave Sonic after all that's happened post-2010. But we're still here having hope waiting for the next game to be better...

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3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Forces was a failure because it wanted to satisfy everybody, and at the end NO ONE was satisfied. If they ever gonna do a Shadow game, they must only appeal to the adventurists!

I agree that trying to appeal to everybody is a terrible idea, but trying to appeal to a subset of a fanbase only isn’t a much better idea. It’d be a niche within a niche, which isn’t a great business strategy. 

Sonic Mania for instance wasn’t just made to appeal to Classic fans (though that certainly was a huge part of it, no denying that) but attracted those outside of the fanbase too, on account of having fixes to issues that people had with the original games (such as the addition of widescreen, making it easier to see what’s coming). That’s not to say there’s nobody outside the fanbase who likes Adventures, I know a fair few, but I don’t think it’s comparable to Classic - and as such there’s not much point restricting the potential market to a hardcore subset of hardcore fans. 

They can make a game that appeals to at least most facets of the fanbase without needing to cater so blatantly, which was Forces’ downfall.

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6 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I agree that trying to appeal to everybody is a terrible idea, but trying to appeal to a subset of a fanbase only isn’t a much better idea. It’d be a niche within a niche, which isn’t a great business strategy. 

Sonic Mania for instance wasn’t just made to appeal to Classic fans (though that certainly was a huge part of it, no denying that) but attracted those outside of the fanbase too, on account of having fixes to issues that people had with the original games (such as the addition of widescreen, making it easier to see what’s coming). That’s not to say there’s nobody outside the fanbase who likes Adventures, I know a fair few, but I don’t think it’s comparable to Classic - and as such there’s not much point restricting the potential market to a hardcore subset of hardcore fans. 

They can make a game that appeals to at least most facets of the fanbase without needing to cater so blatantly, which was Forces’ downfall.

I disagree. Sonic Mania was made with the classic fans in mind, but attracted other people due its high quality and focused production.

The same can be done for a game aimed at adventurists.

Why wouldnt Adventure be successsful too? All it needs is:

-A good gameplay.

-Interesting characters.

-No cringey jokes (litterally the only games I can show to my non-Sonic fan friends without them cringing is SA1, SA2, Sonic Riders and Sonic Unleashed).

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I find this of "Only hardcore fans like Adventure" kinda ridiculous, specially since no one don't knows everyone who play those games.

And by the way... Adventure fans... I bet 100%... that the majority doesn't miss the fishing, shooting, treasure hunting as much as Sonic's normal gameplay. 

I bet from what I know is that Adventure fans want...

A more focus of story

And Adventure Sonic gameplay with multiple characters. Not exactly shooting or treasure hunting. Some want that back, but not that many, and thry wouldn't die for that back. Shadow was a Sonic clone and no one minded that.

Just a grand Adventure with Sonic and friends playable, and larger focus on story.

Now, tell me.

What the huge difference in that? Is a Sonic game! Besides design this could be even a 3D classic game but with different designs and new characters.

I do not understand why the less fans of Adventure have to always think that Adventure games have to be so alien to what they want. Cuz is absolutely not. Even if the story sucks, the gameplay could be everything you wanted for decades. It doesn't have to be worse for you.

So many things to talk about but... Yeah, I will leave it like that.

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4 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

I find this of "Only hardcore fans like Adventure" kinda ridiculous, specially since no one don't knows everyone who play those games  games 

4 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

 That’s not to say there’s nobody outside the fanbase who likes Adventures, I know a fair few, 

With reading comprehension this good, perhaps we should be thankful for the simpler writing. 

My point is that the audience receptive to the Adventure titles outside the fanbase, while it certainly exists, may not be large enough compared to something like Classic to justify a title solely focused on appeasing that audience. I actually feel reviews of the titles go a fair way in demonstrating the modern mindset towards the titles, but it goes beyond that. For instance, how many people say their favourite part of the Adventure games was the Chao Garden, the pet-raising sim that’s nigh entirely divorced from the rest of the game?

I also find complaining that I don’t know what people want whilst taking it upon yourself to decide what the hardcore Adventure fanbase want kind of daft. I can certainly agree with them wanting a deeper story and Sonic’s Adventure gameplay back, but assuming they’d be alright with just making every character a Sonic clone in gameplay style is odd. I’ve seen plenty of people who ardently defend the treasure hunting and mech shooting, even in SA2. What’s the point of demanding a title for “Adventurists” (Christ that’s a dumb phrase) if it only really has 2 things in common with an adventure title?

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14 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

With reading comprehension this poor, perhaps we should be thankful for the simpler writing. 

My point is that the audience receptive to the Adventure titles outside the fanbase, while it certainly exists, may not be large enough compared to something like Classic to justify a title solely focused on appeasing that audience. I actually feel reviews of the titles go a fair way in demonstrating the modern mindset towards the titles, but it goes beyond that. For instance, how many people say their favourite part of the Adventure games was the Chao Garden, the pet-raising sim that’s nigh entirely divorced from the rest of the game?

I also find complaining that I don’t know what people want whilst taking it upon yourself to decide what the hardcore Adventure fanbase want kind of daft. I can certainly agree with them wanting a deeper story and Sonic’s Adventure gameplay back, but assuming they’d be alright with just making every character a Sonic clone in gameplay style is odd. I’ve seen plenty of people who ardently defend the treasure hunting and mech shooting, even in SA2. What’s the point of demanding a title for “Adventurists” (Christ that’s a dumb phrase) if it only really has 2 things in common with an adventure title?

How is it the Adventure fanbase not large enough? The Adventure era has more impact and importance than the modern era even! The modern era doesn't have Shadow or Silver or Blaze! It has Zavok! How many facebook or deviantart fan groups of Zavok do you know?

About the multiple gameplays, I agree Let SEGA decide for themselves, Chao gardens and E-102 and many mission was their ideas and their creative freedom! Let us have Big even, it's not blasphemy to have a slow character. (I dunno why he is still hated, look at his speed in Heroes and Forces mobile game).

Remove that creative freedom and replace it with demands from different factions of angry fans each demanding something nights different from what each other faction demands and you have the likes of Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces!

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Sonic Mania has a lot of decisions people here would disagree with in the years leading up to it but were alright with when they finally saw it, such as reusing levels, making fundamental tweaks to the physics and level design, altering Sonic's moveset and now even adding new characters. I think some creative liberties would have to be taken in making a new Adventure game. Trust that it's not an all or nothing thing for anyone, and appeal to the broad strokes of what people appreciated about these games and want from a successor, and you'll be fine. 

If it's quality, the casual players will come along naturally. Even if Sonic Adventure 2 isn't the most well received nowadays it's not so revolting that people will turn their nose up at anything resembling it. We saw this with Sonic Forces where even with it trying it's hardest to be what sonic fans swear up and down with turn everyone away and kill the series, it was seen as mediocre at best and passed out of the public conscious quickly.

Also also also quick reminder that the labels are dumb and that there is a massive amount of overlap between people who like the classic games and people who like the adventure games. A lot of heads will turn for good Sonic content no matter what game it mildly resembles. 

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49 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

How is it the Adventure fanbase not large enough? The Adventure era has more impact and importance than the modern era even! The modern era doesn't have Shadow or Silver or Blaze! It has Zavok! How many facebook or deviantart fan groups of Zavok do you know?

If it had such an impact, why are you complaining about how irrelevant it's supposedly become? It had an impact in... getting DeviantArt groups made? I'm not about to thank SA2 for the glut of Sonic inflation fetish art, am I? 

For what it's worth I agree that the era had importance, but the Modern era has established the longest running standard gameplay style for 3D Sonic (the boost) as well as major elements such as the Wisps, and more meta stuff like the longest running English voice cast for Sonic (Tails aside). You may not like these, but they're still representative of the shift of Modern Sonic's impact, and still have their fans. And the Modern era literally had Shadow be playable in the last game, so that doesn't particularly work either. And for all that Silver was, he was about as relevant as the Deadly Six ever were, so that's not exactly grand either.

It's true that the gameplay styles showed 'creative freedom,' but when that freedom leads to pretty rubbish stuff like SA2's treasure hunting levels or the plodding mech stuff in... also SA2, or Big's Fishing stages, it's not exactly a good thing on the virtue of being 'creative freedom'.

Anyway, all that put to the side I mostly agree with what Josh said honestly. But I maintain there's little point of looking for a game that 'appeals to Adventure fans' when supposedly it'd use like, two or three ideas from the games those fans actually champion. I love the hell out of SA1 but I don't need another game for 'Adventurists', I'd just be down with something along those lines. Likewise I don't need to decry anyone who enjoys the stylings of Colours or LW as an 'anti-fan' because I'm not that hilariously insecure about my preferences regarding a 3-foot tall blue hedgehog's line of games. 

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12 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

If it had such an impact, why are you complaining about how irrelevant it's supposedly become? It had an impact in... getting DeviantArt groups made? I'm not about to thank SA2 for the glut of Sonic inflation fetish art, am I? 

For what it's worth I agree that the era had importance, but the Modern era has established the longest running standard gameplay style for 3D Sonic (the boost) as well as major elements such as the Wisps, and more meta stuff like the longest running English voice cast for Sonic (Tails aside). You may not like these, but they're still representative of the shift of Modern Sonic's impact, and still have their fans. And the Modern era literally had Shadow be playable in the last game, so that doesn't particularly work either. And for all that Silver was, he was about as relevant as the Deadly Six ever were, so that's not exactly grand either.

It's true that the gameplay styles showed 'creative freedom,' but when that freedom leads to pretty rubbish stuff like SA2's treasure hunting levels or the plodding mech stuff in... also SA2, or Big's Fishing stages, it's not exactly a good thing on the virtue of being 'creative freedom'.

Anyway, all that put to the side I mostly agree with what Josh said honestly. But I maintain there's little point of looking for a game that 'appeals to Adventure fans' when supposedly it'd use like, two or three ideas from the games those fans actually champion. I love the hell out of SA1 but I don't need another game for 'Adventurists', I'd just be down with something along those lines. Likewise I don't need to decry anyone who enjoys the stylings of Colours or LW as an 'anti-fan' because I'm not that hilariously insecure about my preferences regarding a 3-foot tall blue hedgehog's line of games. 

I feel like a lot of this boils down to , please speak for yourself

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15 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like a lot of this boils down to , please speak for yourself

...yeah that's actually a pretty decent way of wording it 

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33 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

If it had such an impact, why are you complaining about how irrelevant it's supposedly become? It had an impact in... getting DeviantArt groups made? I'm not about to thank SA2 for the glut of Sonic inflation fetish art, am I? 

I did not say it's irrelevant, but that SEGA doesn't delivers on the standards of a beloved era. (you could say the same about classic being"irrelevant" before Sonic Mania).

I agree that DeviantArt has lots of weirdshit, but don't forget the many artists who did excellent fanarts about the characters they love and even went on to do it their profession, from Deviantartt to illustrators! In fact all the artists in the recent comics were doing fanarts on deviantart and twitter! Need some links??

Quote

For what it's worth I agree that the era had importance, but the Modern era has established the longest running standard gameplay style for 3D Sonic (the boost) as well as major elements such as the Wisps, and more meta stuff like the longest running English voice cast for Sonic (Tails aside). You may not like these, but they're still representative of the shift of Modern Sonic's impact, and still have their fans. And the Modern era literally had Shadow be playable in the last game, so that doesn't particularly work either. And for all that Silver was, he was about as relevant as the Deadly Six ever were, so that's not exactly grand either.

Let's see:

Adventure era: 10 years, 5 main games. Many good stories, multiple playable characters, variety of gamestyles, epic adventures.

Modern era: 10 years, 5 main games. only Shadow and classic and avatar playable other than Sonic. Don't forget wisps, an attempt to remove Sonic's friends.

Quote

It's true that the gameplay styles showed 'creative freedom,' but when that freedom leads to pretty rubbish stuff like SA2's treasure hunting levels or the plodding mech stuff in... also SA2, or Big's Fishing stages, it's not exactly a good thing on the virtue of being 'creative freedom'.

That's only your opinion.

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4 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Let's see:

Adventure era: 10 years, 5 main games. Many good stories, multiple playable characters, variety of gamestyles, epic adventures.

Modern era: 10 years, 5 main games. only Shadow and classic and avatar playable other than Sonic. Don't forget wisps, an attempt to remove Sonic's friends.

That's only your opinion.

"Many good stories" is also your opinion. Because I thought half of them were utter trash. And a variety of gamestyles means little if they entail shite like fishing. I also don't see the Wisps as an attempt to remove Sonic's friends, but rather just a means of incorporating some standardised power-ups like many other platformers. 

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