Are multiple playable characters still seen as an issue/

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That happens to batman all the time

This happens to franchises all the time

My favorite batman comic isn't about batman

Or its just about them, and the " main character " takes a backseat for a while, and you stop being a baby who needs their main character to be the coolest and strongest, grow up and get over it.

Or not like it and do something else

I don't know what this sentence means?

They should do that, shadow's game in 05 wasn't great? It being focused around him wasn't the reason why if that's what you are implying. But you are on full on sonic jerk off mode so I'm not expecting you to use logic here. To the degree in which you seriously implied having things not about the main character has never happened in fiction ever.

And then use a character batman who it happens to frequently.

I would like more spin offs

I would also not mind if some games weren't really about him but was about his world and other characters

There are plenty of stories told like this, the main character doesn't have to be the coolest and strongest nor does he have to be important all the time. The ability for a main character to do that speaks to the strength of that character. Grow up

Lol something is wrong with....this paragraph. You want me to stop being a baby? Really? 

It's great that your favorite batman story isnt about batman. Wonderful. However, 99% of batman stories are about batman primarily. And that goes for most franchises.

Of course there are spin offs, I've mentioned that numerous times and advocate strongly for it, since it makes sense from a business perspective. However the expectation is still clearly for batman stories to be about batman the vast majority of the time, for completely obvious reasons. Why is it different here? I even used shadow's game as an example of how this branding was done correctly! (Though the game itself was crap). When Sonic Team wanted to capitalize on shadows popularity and tell a shadow-centric story, they made no bones about it and did it, and let us all know that's what we were getting. That's how it should be done, generally speaking.

I'm not in full on sonic....uhm, mode. Sonic is a cool character sure, great. I'm pointing out the silliness in fans groaning about other characters not getting equal or more spotlight than sonic in his own series. They're just not going to, period, except on occasions which the story is primarily about them which does happen every once in a while.

There are a contingent of fans who go on complaining about this constantly and it's not a reasonable thing to do. Theres a place for many different types of fans to exist and be happy in the franchise but it doesnt help anyone when people try to pretend as though this franchise is something that it clearly is not. Almost everyone else in the gaming/entertainment world knows this but for some reason certain fans cant seem to grip with this reality. There is not an equal share of spotlight to be had because this isnt a series like the avengers or justice league where the focus is on the group or the universe. Doesnt mean those kind of stories cant exist, but this franchise isnt of that ilk. Yet some fans will not shut up about it and have convinced themselves that the other characters in the series deserve an equal share of spotlight, or more than the titular character. Ive heard it dozens of times from fans like yourself. That's what I'm commenting on.

I'm stating how things actually are. I dont know, maybe it is past my bedtime as you've so eloquently pointed out. I'm not seeing things correctly here. This series isnt titled sonic, starring the blue hedgehog and his adventures and battle against his arch nemesis dr eggman. Nope. Since 1991, not about that.

 

 

[Shadowlax]

Nothing you said combats anything I said, and all you have done is blame fans.

 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

55 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Nothing you said combats anything I said, and all you have done is blame fans.

 

 

Sure it did. But dont be too convinced you have a point entirely worth refuting. You said you have your favorites and they can exist too, yadda yadda, which is abundantly clear to everyone.... and then called me a baby. Did I refute that? I dunno.....You didnt really make a point and instead opted to call me childish and illogical, amongst other things I have no idea how you would actually know.

No it's not the fans fault that multiple playable characters have mostly been absent from the series for the last decade. It's also not their faults that they were designed poorly in the games in which they were designed poorly. That's all on Sonic Team, just as the solution is itself. My opinion is that extra characters are a complete side issue....because the main offering of the series itself isn't too good right now, especially as a well tuned platform to handle an expansion in gameplay.

As I said before, if you have moldy walls in your home, you should treat the mold before adding layers of paint. In the context of a major video game franchise, within the sonic brand, extra characters are the paint. The mold is the fundamental gameplay problems. Some fans may be happy in the short run to have their favorite characters playable (regardless of quality) but SEGA will not be when the game gets butchered by critics (which is becoming the uncomfortable standard and affecting overall sales, undoubtedly) and most fans for being sloppy, boring, and/or broken because the gameplay is poor and inconsistent. We've been down this road before. 

Until Sonic Team really knows what they are doing (which shouldn't take long if they actually decide on a course of action and stop floundering about) this is a complete side issue in terms of what is best for the series in the long run. 

[Shadowlax]

You have still have not actually addressed the point at hand and made it something else.

 

[Sonic Fan J]

I probably shouldn't get too involved with where this conversation is going, but I think everyone in this thread, especially @UpCDownCLeftCRightC need to be reminded of the term "title character" and the game franchise Zelda, a perfect example of the title character not being the main character/protagonist. If you want to stretch out past that there are many series in anime with title characters who are not the main character with Shakugan no Shana coming to mind first and of course Akira who barely has any presence in the anime movie bearing his name (not that he is the protagonist of the manga either that would still be Kaneda). In the grand scheme of things a title character does not have to be more than the reason events take place that set the protagonist into motion. In just the Sonic franchise alone I could easily see stories being told from the perspectives of Eggman, Amy, Tails, Shadow, Knuckles to an extent, Blaze, even Chip with the way Unleashed was structured, that could still be called Sonic the Hedgehog and not have Sonic be the protagonist or POV character simply because of the effect and adventures he causes those around him to go on.

Now that isn't to say that branding a game within the franchise with a more appropriate title (Shadow the Hedgehog, Chaotix - note that outside of Japan Chaotix had Knuckles' very popular name at the time slapped onto the title to help sell it) doesn't make sense, but as Sonic has been front and center for over a decade now with the extended cast only being advertised to the hardcore fans that won't really work these days. If you want to give other Sonic franchise characters their own spinoff games in the current environment, you still have to use Sonic as the title character so people know what they are getting into, though that comes with it's own limitations as well since they would have to properly introduced again and actually written engaging from not just dialog but also body language and quirky and endearing mannerisms and quirks. Now a good way to go about this is starting with an appropriate title which tells you everything you need to know, my personal preference being something along the lines of Sonic (the Hedgehog) Presents:. It tells you that it is a Sonic franchise game but not necessarily about the blue hedgehog himself. Though, as I said above, being the title character does not inherently make you the protagonist anyway and there are examples that fit that. Heck, even Sherlock Holmes to the best of my knowledge is a similar case with Watson technically being the main character in what's known as a second person perspective narrative with him sharing the story with the audience while also trying to comprehend Sherlock's genius and methods.

Bottom line is though, the "title character" does not have to be, and is not necessarily, the main character or protagonist. What they are is a very important character within the story whose presence, actions, history, legends, etc, drive the main character to do what they do. As I said above, I could take a number of characters from in this franchise and easily see stories that are shaped by Sonic for them without Sonic himself ever appearing. It's not as unusual as it may seem for the "title character" to not be the main character (especially if it's a case where the "title character" is the villain like say Dracula for example) and there is precedent in multiple types of fiction for it. To deny this is to imply not being particularly well read or simply being disingenuous. Even if one considers that the Sonic franchise has primarily focused on Sonic's adventures that occur when he encounters Eggman (I say mostly because the Storybook games don't have Eggman as the center point of Sonic's adventures) seeing the world and Sonic's effects on it from the viewpoints of other characters only adds to Sonic himself as seeing his larger than life feats from differing perspectives adds weight and believability to what makes him the unstoppable force of nature and cool guy that everyone loves despite his attitude. There is more to Sonic than Sonic alone and has been since the beginning when he was already known as the "Most Famous Hedgehog in the World". Understanding the reason for that though necessitates in the much heavier narrative focus of the franchise that followed seeing him from the viewpoint of other characters and that requires sometimes not making him the protagonist of the story. Sure, he will always be the face of the franchise and the reason that everyone takes action in any game bearing his name as more than just a Sonic Universe kind of thing, but at no point should being the "title character" mean that his world and story should only be told from his perspective with the way this franchise has blossomed out since the beginning.

TLDR: "Title Character" does not inherently mean main character or protagonist and the Zelda franchise is a fine example of that as well as any number of other fictional works.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Now that isn't to say that branding a game within the franchise with a more appropriate title (Shadow the Hedgehog, Chaotix - note that outside of Japan Chaotix had Knuckles' very popular name at the time slapped onto the title to help sell it) doesn't make sense, but as Sonic has been front and center for over a decade now with the extended cast only being advertised to the hardcore fans that won't really work these days. If you want to give other Sonic franchise characters their own spinoff games in the current environment, you still have to use Sonic as the title character so people know what they are getting into, though that comes with it's own limitations as well since they would have to properly introduced again and actually written engaging from not just dialog but also body language and quirky and endearing mannerisms and quirks. Now a good way to go about this is starting with an appropriate title which tells you everything you need to know, my personal preference being something along the lines of Sonic (the Hedgehog) Presents:. It tells you that it is a Sonic franchise game but not necessarily about the blue hedgehog himself. 

My point about the titles is that they are a part of branding and advertisement. Zelda has been a 30+ year series that has advertised its hero saves princess concept for that entire time essentially. People recognize the title Zelda for the hero link who saves zelda. If you examine Sonic's nearly 30 years you'll find that it has always starred a blue action oriented hedgehog, front and center, named sonic. This also happens to be one of the most recognized brands ever.

The period between 2002-2006 in which sonic was arguably not the most central character, was a 4 year outlier in sonic's 28 year history. There are groups of fans who joined the franchise during this time that think otherwise because it was their first experience with the games. Its partly why you see statements like the one you just made, "Sonic has been front and center for over a decade now" coming from frustrated fans who dont consider the franchise's entire history and established identity from the start, and expect differently. Sonic was always front and center from the start (of course with some minor exceptions with spinoffs, which are completely fine)! It would be different if the franchise had been built on that 2002-2006 period and then became globally popular and identified for that...but it wasnt. Sonic had already been a well established, globally popular series over a decade before that....and then again after!

People who dont take this into account are always going to feel disregarded, because they entered this series in its 4 year outlier period. They'll always turn their heads wondering why everyone else is 'conspiring against their favorite characters' (I've literally heard that one) and why there's so much "nostalgia pandering", and why their characters dont get their turn, too much Sonic, and why the franchise doesnt expand on the loose style of that period.

This is not a rant about me not liking Shadow, or Sonic '06 and whatnot. It's a simple, plain fact that the Sonic has been the central character with the narrative structured around him for the vast majority of the series history. It was from the beginning, was advertised and recognized that way, and by far reached its height of popularity and success in this form. This doesnt mean the series has to rigidly stay exactly the same every game or anything silly like that. Extra characters taking the spotlight on occasion is perfectly fine but it isnt the norm by any stretch, so people shouldn't get upset when Sonic stars in 90% of his own titled games. It's silly to do so.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

10 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You have still have not actually addressed the point at hand and made it something else.

 

I came into this thread because the point of the thread was to consider of extra characters still have a bad stigma, obviously because many fans want to see their favorite characters return.

My OP, somewhere in the middle of the thread, was to say that I get irritated by this issue because it's commonly brought up as a problem with the series for many fans. However in my opinion, the series has fundamental problems much greater than the absence of Sonic's playable friends, and to talk about them when there are bigger problems that need fixing, is a waste of energy.

I say this because I want to see the series stay relevant and successful. I dont want sonic to fail, at all, in any practically capacity regardless if it suits my taste (unless it is a downright repulsive, clear disaster like '06 was in its entirety...but even that is rare) But it is obvious based on history that it will fail if it does no lt get its priorities in order. The video games will not sell well again until they lose the stigma they built up since 2002-2006. And if they dont sell well, sonic will continue to fade into irrelevance. Meaning we're much less likely to see great sonic games in the future.

I care very much about this problem and see extra character inclusion as a completely annoying sideshow to actually addressing it. That's why I jumped in. I addressed exactly what I wanted to.

[Sonic Fan J]

Well, while you make good points, you are ignoring the fact unlike most other franchises Sonic is constantly reinventing himself to stay relevant instead of refining himself to make himself relevant by setting the bar instead of chasing random bars like a dog with ADD. Whether it is the right approach or not is irrelevant as it is how SEGA has approached the franchise for years. Making matters more complicated and troublesome for fans no matter the era (multiple playable characters have numbered 2 since 1992 as it is) is that SEGA continuously advertises a large number of their characters, most notably Tails, Amy, Shadow, & Knuckles in official capacities of Sonic's universe and story and then uses them for nothing more but cheerleading and exposition. Considering these characters have existed since 2001 and before and have had fans since their inception (I've been an Amy fan since Sonic CD not 2006, Tails and Knuckles since '95, and Shadow since 2001) due to their personality, gameplay, and what they bring to the world to enrich it and Sonic saying it's all because of a single stretch of years is extremely disingenuous. And while you're entitled to your opinion about the other characters not mattering until Sonic is perfected, which will only work if SEGA and Sonic Team keep there creativity out Sonic and put there wacky ideas in new IPs where they belong, the thread was asking if they are still seen as a problem. From what I can tell that problem is primarily with critics who the blind casual masses follow like lemmings and not the actual fans of the franchise and universe shaped by that blue hedgehog whose name is the same as the franchise. The fact that that name is also affiliated with so many characters who are not Sonic tells you that Sonic's world is so much more than just him and his adventures, but also how his adventures affect those he interacts with and the world around him. So sure, he's the star, the "title character", but as much as this franchise is mostly about Sonic and his adventures when he encounters Eggman, it's so much more, and notably it's constant need to reinvent itself. That reinvention alone means it should never surprise someone when Sonic is not the main character or is even absent from a game bearing his name as it is his existence itself that shapes his world and those in it. I love Sonic as character myself, but I also recognize that constantly playing genre roulette with him is not going to solve the problem, nor will keeping him in an isolated vacuum to appease a bunch of critics who hate on Sonic and his friends because it's trendy to so still. The best part about that though, the Sonic game that has received the most critical and consumer praise in recent years has had the most playable characters since 2006 and was built around a solid and functioning formula that put Sonic on the map in the first place. So no, the friends should not be scapegoated here when SEGA is truly to blame for the mixed messages that they send. But even then that doesn't have to be a problem, plenty of franchise make good use of their plethora of characters and SEGA would be wise to do the same. And even saying something as simple as perfect Sonic first is a bit if a weak argument since every character always works best when built around Sonic and his design in the first place. And I won't accept everyone playing the same is boring when Mario is still the most successful platformer on the market where that very thing happens and I grew up in an era when that was the norm and still darn right enjoyable. I get your point, you've made it abundantly clear, but it feels disconnected to the concern here since no one was asking if Sonic still needed to be perfected. They were asking if there is still a stigma around Sonic's friends which has nothing to do with Sonic himself playing like a greased pig or bad Picasso imitation. And while I won't argue that Sonic's gameplay needs better development focus, I won't accept that other characters naturally take away from that because that is an active decision and not some universal law. Perfecting a single gameplay formula should not come at the cost of everything else that has been a part of this franchise since the very second game, especially just because it's SOnic's name on the box.