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CLASSIC VS. MODERN | And the Case for Consolidation


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This is probably the worst sonic video i've seen in a hot minute. And shows that he doesn't understand, buisness....or game design.... or visual design...or why sonic maintained popularity , and views video games as " good gameplay in, good fanbase out " machines.. and it doesn't work ...like that? 

Like...fucking what?

Its robotic in its analyzation  of want needs to be, that shows a giant non understanding of not just how buisnesses work, but how people work.

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Hey, we don't really allow video-only posts, so if you wouldn't mind at least summarizing the video (it's over twenty minutes) and giving your thoughts on it to better lead discussion, that'd be appreciated. Thanks!

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It feels like I've seen the suggestion to merge the identities of Classic and Modern back into one Sonic on this forum plenty of times before, so while the argument certainly isn't a new one I can at least appreciate the effort put forth to present it more cohesively. Though the video probably does run on a bit too long for its own good, with his main points not being as defined as I would have liked.

When it comes to merging the identities, Sonic's design will always be the forefront of any discussion, so I'll just say that Supafloop's art that he showcased would probably be the idea I'd personally go with if it were my decision.

Spoiler

Cosmic Eternity - Desktop BG

I really like this btw; I'd been looking for a new desktop background.

It covers pretty much every basis, keeping Modern's proportions and Classic's aesthetic. Even if the lankier limbs were irksome to you they could easily be shortened to their original length for future 2-D titles since they were made longer in order to make them more distinguished in 3-D specifically. However, Sega is highly unlikely to ever do this, and would probably be more comfortable just sticking with Modern's design, what with it being almost 20 years old come December.

Gameplaywise, Sonic Mania's success has undoubtedly solidified the general audience's perception of what 2-D Sonic should play like. Comparatively the past few 2-D installments haven't sold nearly as many units, the last truly 2-D title before Mania had released 5 years beforehand to lukewarm reception, likely guaranteeing many had forgotten about it by this point. So on this front we're pretty much golden I'd say.

It's always been 3-D we've never nailed down. I know this, everyone else knows this, we've discussed this death just as much as the Classic and Modern design preference, so I'll just go ahead and say that boost gameplay needs to go. Ever since it became the primary focus for new Sonic Team designed games it has proven too inconsistent in itself to be the foundation that Sonic needs to continue running on. It pains me to even mention it since it's long become a garbage fire of a discussion, but Sonic needs to return to how he played in his first two 3-D outings: he needs to run, jump, and roll as he did in Adventure 1 and 2.

I'm not saying it needs to be Adventure 3, hell there doesn't even need to be multiple playable characters or alternative stories, Sonic can be the only controllable character again and I wouldn't care less, as long as he played well, but I firmly believe it's time he returned to it. It's the closest translation of his 2-D gameplay we've ever gotten, and with Mania's recent acclaim, it would be best to strike while the iron is still hot and it's still fresh on everyone's minds, not just ours but the general consumer's too. They're similar enough that if one were to squint their eyes you could easily say they play identically just in a different perspective, not unlike 2-D and 3-D Mario.

I know what I've said isn't new either, but damn it I've been overdue for a longer than normal post, and I was in the mood for it so I might as well.

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I've been saying this for a while now, but yeah. What Sonic needs is good game design. All the aesthetic overhauls and different branches and reboots people keep suggesting are surface level. On par with hollow marketing gimmicks because that's the only level they understand games on. A solid team with the time to execute their singular vision will solve most of the "problems" with Sonic off the bat and the rest will fall into place. We saw this with Mania and we saw this with the comics.

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17 minutes ago, Josh said:

I've been saying this for a while now, but yeah. What Sonic needs is good game design. All the aesthetic overhauls and different branches and reboots people keep suggesting are surface level. On par with hollow marketing gimmicks because that's the only level they understand games on. A solid team with the time to execute their singular vision will solve most of the "problems" with Sonic off the bat and the rest will fall into place. We saw this with Mania and we saw this with the comics.

I disagree somewhat, while yes aesthetic overhauls and or removing characters doesn't make gameplay good... that's super important. Its why a lot of people play video games, to use fighting games as an example. There are plenty of fantastic anime fighters, anime fighters don't attact as many folks because of aesthetic. To dismiss visual design and theme as an important aspect as game design kind of fails to understand demographics and the general audience at large. Yes , fixing the game will help, but it wont solve anything. There are a bunch of folks who wont go anywhere near something with modern sonic in it, but will play classic sonic shit. Make good classic sonic games with that aesthetic and use itw ell and you will get them and you will get them. And there are a bunch of people now clamoring for adventure shit, i'm sure if you make a good 3d game with that aesthetic and those characters you will get them to. 

Gameplay is VERY IMPORTANT. That said, to knock off aesthetics and visual design as thing that falls into place is not only insulting to the people who are paid to make that happen, its also ignoring the general video game playing audience often go by and connect with what they are seeing. It wont just fall into place, you have to work on the visual design elements of what you are commuting to as well.

And that's why sonic mania worked, because embraced and used that aesthetic, while making a good game. The visual design in sonic and what they choose to with the brand is important because its what its mainly been surviving on for years. To ignore this, is to fail to understand why sonic connects to people, and its to fail to understand one of the main appeals of sonic as a thing.

You don't just need a solid team with a singular vision, you need one that understand and respects the thing its trying to make. Sonic boom the cartoon is a singular vision, its also not great. Aesthetic is important. 

One last thing, I would make he argument that if you think that aesthetic is hollow... you don't really understand game design that much. Because it means a lot more than you think. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I disagree somewhat, while yes aesthetic overhauls and or removing characters doesn't make gameplay good... that's super important. Its why a lot of people play video games, to use fighting games as an example. There are plenty of fantastic anime fighters, anime fighters don't attact as many folks because of aesthetic. To dismiss visual design and theme as an important aspect as game design kind of fails to understand demographics and the general audience at large. Yes , fixing the game will help, but it wont solve anything. There are a bunch of folks who wont go anywhere near something with modern sonic in it, but will play classic sonic shit. Make good classic sonic games with that aesthetic and use itw ell and you will get them and you will get them. And there are a bunch of people now clamoring for adventure shit, i'm sure if you make a good 3d game with that aesthetic and those characters you will get them to. 

Gameplay is VERY IMPORTANT. That said, to knock off aesthetics and visual design as thing that falls into place is not only insulting to the people who are paid to make that happen, its also ignoring the general video game playing audience often go by and connect with what they are seeing. It wont just fall into place, you have to work on the visual design elements of what you are commuting to as well.

And that's why sonic mania worked, because embraced and used that aesthetic, while making a good game. The visual design in sonic and what they choose to with the brand is important because its what its mainly been surviving on for years. To ignore this, is to fail to understand why sonic connects to people, and its to fail to understand one of the main appeals of sonic as a thing.

You don't just need a solid team with a singular vision, you need one that understand and respects the thing its trying to make. Sonic boom the cartoon is a singular vision, its also not great. Aesthetic is important. 

One last thing, I would make he argument that if you think that aesthetic is hollow... you don't really understand game design that much. Because it means a lot more than you think. 

 

I didn't say aesthetic wasnt important once in my post.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

I didn't say aesthetic wasnt important once in my post.

Quote

A solid team with the time to execute their singular vision will solve most of the "problems" with Sonic off the bat and the rest will fall into place

I could be misreading this line, but that's how I read it.

" If you put the gameplay in good people will just like it " 

That's how I read it, if that's not what it is I apologize. But given the sentences before and the video the thread is focused on which goes to great lengths to its detriment to suggest that aesthetics do not matter ( a long with a myriad other issues ) 

 

When ya say 

Quote

. All the aesthetic overhauls and different branches and reboots people keep suggesting are surface level.

And when you say that, that's kind of what that reads as

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I could be misreading this line, but that's how I read it.

" If you put the gameplay in good people will just like it " 

That's how I read it, if that's not what it is I apologize. But given the sentences before and the video the thread is focused on which goes to great lengths to its detriment to suggest that aesthetics do not matter ( a long with a myriad other issues ) 

 

When ya say 

And when you say that, that's kind of what that reads as

A "solid team" would include art and sound design since that's a part of game design.

I'm more saying the idea of rebooting or redesigning the character that gets passed around in the fandom is meaningless if there's no quality increase. The same goes for the different branches. I also don't really see the point in those ideas if you just make better games to start with.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

A "solid team" would include art and sound design since that's a part of game design.

I'm more saying the idea of rebooting or redesigning the character that gets passed around in the fandom is meaningless if there's no quality increase. The same goes for the different branches. I also don't really see the point in those ideas if you just make better games to start with.

Ok ok, I agree with a lot of this. 

I will say , I feel like like with a of sonic analysis on the net the suggestion of new teams is beating around the bush of " I don't think sonic team can really do this anymore" . The suggestion of a new team, is the suggestion that quality will infact go up. The idea of key members of sonic team taking more of a brand managerial role, and letting different teams make different quality games maybe not the biggest most expensive ones but quality non the less is what I think at least with the team comments is what they are trying to get at. 

 

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Sorry but too in favor of keeping classic sonic and modern sonic apart now after the inconsistent game play found in forces.

It was fine to pair them in generations but not again after forces.

If forces was better and more consistent then yes I would say its fine, but forces is mediocre at best and Sonic team was underwhelming compared to the folks over at headcannon.

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