Why "I" dislike Amy's Piko Piko Hammer

[Lord-Dreamerz]

18 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Not even my halberd suggestion?

Just missed your post along the way. Anyways a halberd doesn't make enough of a difference to the people who hate her using a weapon altogether. It's not enough of a change to make it worth the exchange for her hammer which is already iconic to her character.

[MainJP]

Yeah, see I'm fine with the hammer, but I'm not opposed to Amy having additional abilities.

Amy's always had that ability to summon things from thin air, like her hammer for instance:

Which was alluded to in Sonic X:

In Fighters she has a move where she literally summons random objects to crush the opponent:

It hasn't been explained to be an actual power, but this isn't really something we see other characters do outside of Tails' gadgets and arm cannon in Battle.

You could perhaps do something with that, it's basically Weapon Summoning. She has her normal hammer, maybe give her the option to use different types of hammers depending on the situation? In Sonic Advance 3 she could use a different hammer depending on who she was paired with.

But it wasn't much different from a normal one. Give it different properties like creating a tremor when used and have it stun other enemies or open up new paths by shattering walls from afar. During maybe an underground boss battle you could have her use the giant hammer to shake the area and have rocks and stalactites fall on the boss.

I remember reading another comment saying that she could have the ability to use her tarot card as makeshift platforms to reach far out platforms.

Alternatively (or additionally), I don't see why we can make greater use of her acrobatic ability. In addition to propelling herself with the hammer how about giving her a wall jump similar to the 3D Mario games? Keep her ability to rapidly spin her hammer to slow her decent from Heroes. Just throwing out ideas.

[Sonictrainer]

On the note of Amy punching, boxercise obsession aside, she had the fastest basic attack in Sonic Battle.

[MadmanRB]

55 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Just missed your post along the way. Anyways a halberd doesn't make enough of a difference to the people who hate her using a weapon altogether. It's not enough of a change to make it worth the exchange for her hammer which is already iconic to her character.

Well one could always give her a war hammer.

Or a maul (no not the sith lord)

 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

On another note. Am I the only one who found Amy the most fun to play as on Sonic Advance? Sure she needed some improvements like a roll and maybe the Super Peel Out... But she was different and fun to me. Pretty much the only character I use when I replay the game. xD

If she wasn't as stiff as she was, I'd find her the most fun to play...

Her integrated in the classic games is how it should've felt, but they're two different engines...

[Skull Leader]

Why does OP insist in twisting something as silly-looking as a squeaky toy hammer into something offensive?

Personally I like the Piko hammer and really can't imagine Amy without it. I even laughed when Ian dedicated a whole issue of Archie's Sonic Boom to the gang looking for it, suggesting Amy to find other ways to fight to which she insists that the hammer is what makes her special, that it is whom she is... And agree. 

Every character in the franchise already is acrobatic (some more than others), they all spin dash and roll and have their abilities. Amy was pretty much the only character that was kind of left behind until destiny brought to her life they key to open her own path in a life of adventure: the Piko Piko hammer.

Now, some details of it's origin still remain a mistery. Some legends says that she found it inside a cereal box, others that it was stolen from the remains of the boss from Sonic 2's Mystic Ruins. Maybe the origin will never be revealed, much like Amy's weight, but one thing is clear: it exists, it's magical and it's here to stay.

Before I go on, this is a never before seen video of the harsh training Amy had to undergo before she mastered the darned thing:

True warriors with burning hearts of manly passion fight use plastic toy hammers and jankenpon. Only weaklings with no discipline use the katana.

Anyway, I like to think that Amy's hammer is the ideal choice for her to fight evil: it packs quite a punch, but doesn't cause any serious injury. Just what a girl needs to stop badguys from doing their evil deeds, and still leaving the alive to give them a second chance (either by giving them a heartfelt speech for them to realize that there is still good in them.. Or by just giving them a stern scolding). Alternatively, it can be used on Sonic when he crosses the line with her, like that time in the riders games when not only he attacked Eggman while the doc held Amy, but also forgot togo check on her. It also fits Amy's more temperamental side, allowing her to comically throw a tantrum when she needs to vent off. If I enjoy seeing the doc throwing one because of how his long limbs add to how he emotes, seeing this little pink rascal do the same with a gorilla-sized hammer will amuse me just as much.

Did I also mentioned that the Piko hammer reminds me to the legendary Chipote Chillon used by Mexican super hero El Chapulin Colorado? No contaban con mi astucia!

Then there's the gameplay part: I love playing as Amy is Sonic Advance. It's the closest thing to seeing Mario's gameplay within the Genesis game style. Plus I like smashing springs, a small but ingenious way of giving an existing gimmick an alternate way of using it. Even in the Genesis games, I only replay those games using Amy in the hacks made by E-122 psi, because they're that good. (There might be small little differences from how Advance Amy behaves, but's like I said, their minor differences, plus I'm getting something that Sega/ST are not cool enough to do themselves.)

Tl;dr version: The Piko Piko hammer is good, and adding it to things makes them better.

[Sonic Fan J]

Quite a lot of discussion spawned from me detailing my opinion which is nice to see. Also a nice way to see just how different my opinion is. It also highlights the preference this fanbase has for combat over exploration and discovery and movement in general. All around nice to see so many different facets of the fanbase and how they perceive things in one place.

@MadmanRB I would actually start from the basic moveset and not give her another weapon. The rolling gameplay of the franchise is part of what I think of when I think of the games so it is where I would start like I would if I was tasked with introducing any new character. I actually started a thread that was lost a few pages back already where I challenged everyone to do the same and provided a number of examples there. Just to be fair I even included examples that included the hammer despite my opinion of it. But in short, I would focus on her acrobatic abilities and see how I could expand on them.

@Lord-Dreamerz I actually really did not make this thread to try to change anyone's mind. It actually was just me keeping my word to detail my dislike of the hammer after being called out before for frequently mentioning it. As for why I mention it whenever gameplay for Amy is brought up, it is primarily because I make suggestions for non-hammer based gameplay. Sure I could I say "I would take away the hammer and instead" instead of saying "I dislike the hammer so" but most people would ask me why take it away so it kind of saves time. It's like why in one example where I say I would take away Knuckles's glide if Tails is present in the same game since Tails already dominates empty space platforming making Knuckles' glide underpowered and redundant I make sure to mention Tails' role to save time for everyone else. 
As for typing it all up instead of a video, that mostly comes down to quality control. I could do a better job at making sure it was as clean and unoffensive as possible that way . My apologies for it being as long as it was.
And on the rascal part, one does not need a hammer to be playfully mischievous. I actually like the way Tagaki-san from Karakai Jozu no Tagaki-san handles that angle of things better. She is playful and never malicious, even being apologetic when she has taken it too far but otherwise also invites Nishikata to give it his all to get back at her. It is playful and never violent. No matter how one spins it striking someone is violent and the fear the other characters have of Amy's hammer because of it is not funny to me.

@Skull Leader I did not try to twist anything. I was just stating how I see it. I understand that my viewpoint is perhaps extreme, but it does not stem from any kind of twisting or intent to twist other people's viewpoint. If anything, it would be more accurate of you to accuse me of having a twisted view than twisting things. All my main intent was, was to explain my viewpoint comprehensively and where it comes from so that way it would be easier for other s to see why I make so many gameplay suggestions for Amy that removes her hammer from her. That said though

57 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

I even laughed when Ian dedicated a whole issue of Archie's Sonic Boom to the gang looking for it, suggesting Amy to find other ways to fight to which she insists that the hammer is what makes her special, that it is whom she is... And agree. 

This I can confidently say I disagree with. Amy is an individual with so much more to her as you yourself point out so eloquently on so many occasions and not just a tool or weapon. Really for the most, my dislike of her hammer is about the only place I strongly diverge from your own opinion of Amy.

 

[MadmanRB]

24 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 I would actually start from the basic moveset and not give her another weapon. The rolling gameplay of the franchise is part of what I think of when I think of the games so it is where I would start like I would if I was tasked with introducing any new character. I actually started a thread that was lost a few pages back already where I challenged everyone to do the same and provided a number of examples there. Just to be fair I even included examples that included the hammer despite my opinion of it. But in short, I would focus on her acrobatic abilities and see how I could expand on them.

Eh then you make her boring then and even less appealing then i think she already is.

I hate Amy Rose with a passion as it is, the hammer makes her stand out more.

Why not take away Miles Tails or Knuckles knuckles?

[Lord-Dreamerz]

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 I actually really did not make this thread to try to change anyone's mind.

I still don't fully believe that. And nobody was pressuring you into explaining yourself.

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As for why I mention it whenever gameplay for Amy is brought up, it is primarily because I make suggestions for non-hammer based gameplay. Sure I could I say "I would take away the hammer and instead" instead of saying "I dislike the hammer so" but most people would ask me why take it away so it kind of saves time.

I wasn't actually asking for another explanation. I already know why you made it, it's clear you want to explain yourself often. But no, you don't need to explain EVERY time why you hate her hammer when thinking up a gameplay concept for her. Almost nobody is gotta ask why you don't include her hammer in the idea unless you point it out.

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It's like why in one example where I say I would take away Knuckles's glide if Tails is present in the same game since Tails already dominates empty space platforming making Knuckles' glide underpowered and redundant I make sure to mention Tails' role to save time for everyone else. 

Another thing I'll disagree on then. Flying and gliding give completely different gameplay experiences. The concept that every different character's abilities can't be remotely similar isn't a great thought when designing games.

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And on the rascal part, one does not need a hammer to be playfully mischievous. I actually like the way Tagaki-san from Karakai Jozu no Tagaki-san handles that angle of things better. She is playful and never malicious, even being apologetic when she has taken it too far but otherwise also invites Nishikata to give it his all to get back at her. It is playful and never violent. No matter how one spins it striking someone is violent and the fear the other characters have of Amy's hammer because of it is not funny to me.

I have NO idea what character you are talking about, and no, that is not a question. I simply do not agree with you on this subject or your hate for goofy cartoon violence. I didn't say a rascal needs a hammer, I said Amy is a rascal and that your concept that she should be a sweet non-violent girl is unfitting to her character. We are not going to agree on this. So i'm done here.

[Skull Leader]

5 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I agree. I have YET to see anybody suggest a hugely better idea for her character. I mostly only see ideas that makes her more generic and boring of a character when replacing her hammer with something or nothing else.

On another note. Am I the only one who found Amy the most fun to play as on Sonic Advance? Sure she needed some improvements like a roll and maybe the Super Peel Out... But she was different and fun to me. Pretty much the only character I use when I replay the game. xD

No, you are definitively not the only one who found Amy in Advance to be the most fun.

Regarding improvements, I think a dash would be the idea compromise between giving Amy a move that gives her a speed boost while still retaining her more defensive gameplay in which she simply can't kill enemies by touching them like the others do with a spindash (especially since giving Amy a spindash would render her hammer attacks redundant, and think E-122 might share this opinion too). In fact, I believe it was the latest version of Sonic 2 Pink Edition which featured Amy with both a dash move as well as retaining her stride jump from Advance.

[Tornado]

That wall of text in the OP is more overthinking about Amy's character than anyone actually involved with the series has ever put into her. She was a generic fangirl character who eventually evolved into a homeless man's Misa Amane around Sonic X and the contemporary games before becoming what she is to day. That period of time was a problem, certainly; as it was for all of the characters when the entire series became a bad copy of popular anime from several years prior. The hammer in itself is benign, and taking any goofy cartoon violence that she usually exhibits with it as offensive to her character is a reaction so extreme that it goes into complete ridiculousness.

[Shadowlax]

6 hours ago, FFWF said:

  I'm not drawn to the idea of Sonic as high fantasy (

A good chunk of the characters already have fantasy abilities to be quite fair, I don't think magic cards makes that immortal guy who can warp space and stop time any less weird. Or the pyromancer, or the telekenetic , or The shaman who guards the super jewel that controls the jewels that grant the users powers, or the myriad ghosts, or the dijinn, or the various old god monsters that spawn or the....

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Tornado said:

That wall of text in the OP is more overthinking about Amy's character than anyone actually involved with the series has ever put into her. She was a generic fangirl character who eventually evolved into a homeless man's Misa Amane around Sonic X and the contemporary games before becoming what she is to day. That period of time was a problem, certainly; as it was for all of the characters when the entire series became a bad copy of popular anime from several years prior. The hammer in itself is benign, and taking any goofy cartoon violence that she usually exhibits with it as offensive to her character is a reaction so extreme that it goes into complete ridiculousness.

I feel like maybe them not thinking more about the character in that regard is a problem? And maybe amy's character in the series from jump has kind of had issues, both in gameplay and just representative of a girl wise and having these conversations is good. And I feel like a dismissal  of these points doesn't really contribute much to conversation? There are plenty of things, plenty of artistic creators didn't think about when creating, that doesn't really negate talking about it?

 

[Salamander]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

A good chunk of the characters already have fantasy abilities to be quite fair, I don't think magic cards makes that immortal guy who can warp space and stop time any less weird. Or the pyromancer, or the telekenetic , or The shaman who guards the super jewel that controls the jewels that grant the users powers, or the myriad ghosts, or the dijinn, or the various old god monsters that spawn or the....

It's largely a matter of flavour, but as you rightly point out, even those considerations of the series which were given little thought are still worthy of analysis and discussion.  It's facile to dismiss the obvious stratification which is supported throughout the series, which I will now explain.

Consider the following scenario: Stormclouds lour overhead, and lightning flashes upon the precipice, illuminating momentarily a figure of abstruse costume.  His hat is pointed; his robe, long and flowing; and his beard, white and voluminous.  Stars, moons, and similar esoteric runes and sigils adorn his costume; and in one wizened hard, he clutches a long and gnarled stave, bearing upon its head a glassy orb which glows with arcane power.  This individual is unmistakably a wizard, and as the stormclouds begin to orbit about the point of the precipice and the wild flashing of lightning reaches a crescendo, he raises aloft his sceptre and begins to incant a magical spell.  Does this fit your vision of an appropriate scene to appear in a mainline Sonic game?

It's high fantasy, the term I used, versus low fantasy.  A lot of the powers and characters you cite fall into either a more "mystic" bracket - like the idea of the Chaos Emeralds as ancient artifacts, for instance, which are frequently exploited in an almost sci-fi-like context - or are common currency among your average superpower fiction, which rarely offers a clearly-defined explanation but equally rarely collapses into outright magic.  Additionally, nothing in my original statement said that I was perfectly content to accept all of the material you cite either; bracketing them as ancient and mysterious but conceivably rational is in my opinion the best you can do to reclaim the various ghosts, genies, and gods like Solaris and Gaia, who otherwise are such complete departures from anything Sonic as a series is meant to be about.  There's a reason '06 has been described as being more like a Final Fantasy plot; the material it presents is out of place.

If you want a shorthand explanation, it's partly about whether or not you actually use the word "magic."  Nearly everything in the series has some kind of logical grounding rather than falling back on that pure fantasy abstraction which mutually excludes technology.  Consider how the powers of the Chaos Emeralds (notably "Chaos Energy," not magic) are possible to analyse, quantify, trace, duplicate, extract and generally exploit through technological means, or the way that Shadow is specifically the product of a scientific process.  Conversely, when the series wanted to do a plot with wizards, knights, and talking swords, they explicitly set it in a spin-off set inside a storybook rather than attempt to represent it in the main universe.  The developers don't define or police the boundary very carefully, but there is a degree of fantasy which is outside the purview of the series.

[Shadowlax]

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

It's largely a matter of flavour, but as you rightly point out, even those considerations of the series which were given little thought are still worthy of analysis and discussion.  It's facile to dismiss the obvious stratification which is supported throughout the series, which I will now explain.

Consider the following scenario: Stormclouds lour overhead, and lightning flashes upon the precipice, illuminating momentarily a figure of abstruse costume.  His hat is pointed; his robe, long and flowing; and his beard, white and voluminous.  Stars, moons, and similar esoteric runes and sigils adorn his costume; and in one wizened hard, he clutches a long and gnarled stave, bearing upon its head a glassy orb which glows with arcane power.  This individual is unmistakably a wizard, and as the stormclouds begin to orbit about the point of the precipice and the wild flashing of lightning reaches a crescendo, he raises aloft his sceptre and begins to incant a magical spell.  Does this fit your vision of an appropriate scene to appear in a mainline Sonic game?

Depends on the sonic game?  I could totally see that being like a precursor cutscene of a long as time ago in sonic land, then cutting to now and that wizard creating some object the various sonic characters will fight over. 

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

It's high fantasy, the term I used, versus low fantasy.  A lot of the powers and characters you cite fall into either a more "mystic" bracket - like the idea of the Chaos Emeralds as ancient artifacts, for instance, which are frequently exploited in an almost sci-fi-like context - or are common currency among your average superpower fiction, which rarely offers a clearly-defined explanation but equally rarely collapses into outright magic.

There are plenty of super hero explanations that are quite literally magic. Hell in both DC and Marvel ( partially because Jack Kirby had a hand in both of their cosmologies ) The farther you get into magic and science into space they kind of become the same thing. There is literally a legion of little blue gnome wizards that give people rings that run on will power. And Wonder Woman is literally just magic, she's a god she's literally just magic. I would make that argument, and I don't know you, but you don't actually read too many comics because there is plenty of shit that's just magic. Even if they are presented like an artifact, its quite literally just a magic artifact.

Now... all that said I get your point. Even though those blue space wizards give people magic rings, they try to presented as more sci fi than magic in that regard as opposed to say wonder woman, or Dr. Strange, but its still magic. Its Often cosmic magic bestowed upon one via some diety. There's even outright magic in shit like batman, batman fights a cult that litterally has a pool of magic ooze that brought one of his adopted sons, and his biological son back to life. Its more often, just strait up magic than you would think. 

That isn't to say there isn't a bunch of science based super heroes, and even heroes like thor and his whole pantheon are in that category of " so far into space magic and technology are the same thing " but its still just magic. Or technology you can't comprehend, or both

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

  Additionally, nothing in my original statement said that I was perfectly content to accept all of the material you cite either; bracketing them as ancient and mysterious but conceivably rational is in my opinion the best you can do to reclaim the various ghosts, genies, and gods like Solaris and Gaia, who otherwise are such complete departures from anything Sonic as a series is meant to be about.  There's a reason '06 has been described as being more like a Final Fantasy plot; the material it presents is out of place.

Those are just ancient magics , after the magic jewels so they can do evil magic shit. 

Now, let me fair to you and let me be clear. I get your point, the basis of this seires is that the villain is technology. And excluding the chaos emeralds, and knuckles's entire air of mysticism, I can get how someone can get the view point of the story not being magic related. I would also go so far as to say, I also kind of don't like this to a degree, and I would go far as to suggest that they actually just strait up remove the chaos emeralds.  

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

If you want a shorthand explanation, it's partly about whether or not you actually use the word "magic."  Nearly everything in the series has some kind of logical grounding rather than falling back on that pure fantasy abstraction which mutually excludes technology.

The chaos emeralds

Half the casts powers

A lot of the magic based eldritch horrors they fight

They actual ghosts

The actual Djinn which are creatures who DO MAGIC

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Consider how the powers of the Chaos Emeralds (notably "Chaos Energy," not magic) are possible to analyse, quantify, trace, duplicate, extract and generally exploit through technological means, or the way that Shadow is specifically the product of a scientific process. 

The issue with this is 

1) There is plenty of fiction ( maybe a super famous one known the world around, something called fairy shotter or something ) , where magic can be analyzed, quantified, duplicated and exploited and researched like an actual academic study. Sometimes if you can the right type of magic, you can even apply fictional math to it, like alchemy, but it is at its core... magic.

2) Shadow's a bad example because we don't know where he came from, or how he got his powers. We don't actually know that. We were told gerald created him, but then black doom. Along with there just being holes and inconstancy in that plot. Did Gerald find shadow, did he make shadow? Did he just augment him, was he something else entirely then black doom made shadow the way he was? Given how black doom says physical traits that shadow has are black arms specific. We actually don't know, and the people who could tell is us, are all dead. One of which shadow murdered himself. That is quite literally the issue with the example is that his a mystery. He is , shadow. 

And to get back to your other point, he hasn't been quantified, analyzed , or duplicated, he's so weird that no one has  been able to do any of those things. You don't think if GUN or Eggman figured out what shadow was made of, they would have been shooting out shadows like an edgy industrial line? And not just shadow, almost every single chaos thing in series that is not connected to a machine, and even in the case of neo metal sonic, sometimes when it is connected to a machine, produces unique almost magical life effects. Like the chaos is a magical energy. That one can manipulate, to do magic. 

56 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Conversely, when the series wanted to do a plot with wizards, knights, and talking swords, they explicitly set it in a spin-off set inside a storybook rather than attempt to represent it in the main universe.  The developers don't define or police the boundary very carefully, but there is a degree of fantasy which is outside the purview of the series.

I think that's less that and more so they wanted to do a medieval story and just wanted to imagine some of the characters as other characters. This could apply to anything, they could do a detective story where tails is Sherlock Holmes. They could do a spy story where Rouge is some form of 007 or snake equivalent. Or a castle vania or DMC story with shadow. All of those types of things, espically the last two , because that's rouge's actual job and there are actual castles with ghosts and magic shit in sonic by the way. (If you forgot... there magic ghost castles in sonic. ) . 

Just because they did that doesn't mean its so out of this world for the series, while yes there are a lot of cases where people do alt universes or what if scenario's to explore those things, doesn't mean that's what its about. Sometimes they ... just wanna tell weird ass story in a weird setting, or has something that can't be done in the main series like shadow being Lancelot. But Sonic going on a magical adventure being a knight, sure probably, but they wanted to tell this whole weird story with everyone being various king aurthor characters so they made its own thing. I doubt they gave half of a shit about the magic party. 

Because you know, magic ghost castle. MAGIC GHOST CASTLE 

[Skull Leader]

I think the so called issues with Amy's character are something that has more to do with people placing expectations that were built from exposure to other shows. Kind of like expecting for Looney Tunes or other such cartoons characters to act like the more serious and competent anime ones and be annoyed because instead of that, they dare to be silly, do dumb things and have flaws that put them in ridiculous situations.

Like E-122 said, Amy has flaws that does makes her act like a brat or have childish impulses, but when compared to the opposite of turning her into a sound, albeit very boring character, I'd much rather have a character that amuses and entertains (isn't it funny how a lot of people's idea of "improving" whimsical and quirky characters often not involves stripping them from what makes them stand out in the first place?). Plus Amy still has redeeming aspects  that balances her other feisty traits,,adding the ability to get serious when really needed and who surprisingly can be more sensible than other characters that are supposed to know better, like Blaze who can loose sight of why she fights because of being so stubborn, refusing to accept help. I seriously doubt I would even like Amy if she were to be turned into a one-dimensional "pure-hearted nice girl" type of character with no flaws like Cream, Maria or Tikal.

Regarding being representative of females, I really don't see the issue when Sonic is just as much of your stereotypical blue boy to Amy's pink girl. If there is any issue, I'd say it has more to do with Amy not being given the same opportunities that characters like Tails or Knuckles have to be used and show what can be done with her personality or her hammer abilities rather than her character/personality.

[Tornado]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like maybe them not thinking more about the character in that regard is a problem?

I feel like people in fandoms dramatically overthinking characters and checking everything against their internal wants for them is a much more common one.

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And maybe amy's character in the series from jump has kind of had issues,

You know that I don't like? Like, really, really don't like? People attempting to scrub all character flaws from fictional characters because they don't like them being there. Because what they want is the idealized version of the character they've constructed in their head rather than the character as it actually exists. That's what the OP reads to me, at least when it's not rambling for paragraphs at a time onto completely unrelated tangents; and every attempt he has made to argue it since then has made it sound like he's digging in rather than actually trying to have a conversation.

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And I feel like a dismissal  of these points doesn't really contribute much to conversation?

If I didn't find the basis for the argument so inherently ridiculous and primarily against things the series was mostly doing over a decade ago, I would think the discussion was more worth having in detail.

 

 

As it is this thread is only a hair removed from that topic a few years ago that talked about how awesomely deep Sonic is as a character before rattling off a bunch of allegedly different character traits and examples that basically just amounted to how incorruptibly purely pure he is. The main difference in that thread (aside from Verte being much better at getting to the point) was that it was based off of things that Sonic actually did in the games and she was merely ascribing meaning to it that really wasn't there. In comparison this thread is based on a bunch of throwaway sentences in manuals from a long-dead continuity of the series and the OP's secondhand conjecture made from applying real world logic to the backstory of the few games Amy was in before she actually became a main character, all confusingly done as a rallying point against something that was primarily in force way back when Sonic Team USA was still making the games. To what end?

Yeah, Amy was an unnecessarily violent and generally badly-written mess in Sonic X and Heroes and Battle, and without her hammer it wouldn't have been as obvious. Basically anything done with her would have been better than how she was in those things; which is especially important better things have been done since all of that media was made nearly 15 years ago. But Amy needs to control and play and act like a girl version of Sonic (who frequently in the games is barely even a character) so she can be a better role model to little girls and better represent gender equality in the series and live up to these expectations barely based on anything that the OP has erected for her? Get the fuck out of here.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The chaos emeralds

Half the casts powers

Those are not fantasy elements.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The issue with this is 

1) There is plenty of fiction ( maybe a super famous one known the world around, something called fairy shotter or something ) , where magic can be analyzed, quantified, duplicated and exploited and researched like an actual academic study. Sometimes if you can the right type of magic, you can even apply fictional math to it, like alchemy, but it is at its core... magic.

2) Shadow's a bad example because we don't know where he came from, or how he got his powers. We don't actually know that. We were told gerald created him, but then black doom. Along with there just being holes and inconstancy in that plot. Did Gerald find shadow, did he make shadow? Did he just augment him, was he something else entirely then black doom made shadow the way he was? Given how black doom says physical traits that shadow has are black arms specific. We actually don't know, and the people who could tell is us, are all dead. One of which shadow murdered himself. That is quite literally the issue with the example is that his a mystery. He is , shadow.

The issue with this is:

1: The Sonic series is not built from that basis; and Harry Potter's establishment of the magical elements it contains are a huge part of the world building of every book to deliberately contrast it with the real world of scientific understanding that the series uses as a backdrop.

2: Shadow's backstory has never implied a fantasy upbringing, no matter how many holes it had from game to game. The closest it ever got to it was when the series gave a collective shrug and said that no one could explain Shadow, but that does not mean "magic".

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

And to get back to your other point, he hasn't been quantified, analyzed , or duplicated, he's so weird that no one has  been able to do any of those things.

I'm pretty sure attempts of that nature was literally the basis of all three of the games that Sonic Team USA made.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You don't think if GUN or Eggman figured out what shadow was made of, they would have been shooting out shadows like an edgy industrial line?

Again, literally the majority of the story for all three of the games Sonic Team USA developed.

 

 

 

To say nothing of you conflating analyzing something (which Shadow most definitely was) with being able to understand it and on top of that also replicate it, when all three things are part of the same process instead of being the same thing.

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And not just shadow, almost every single chaos thing in series that is not connected to a machine, and even in the case of neo metal sonic, sometimes when it is connected to a machine, produces unique almost magical life effects. Like the chaos is a magical energy. That one can manipulate, to do magic.

"Hopefully if I just keep saying the word magic..."

[Sonic Fan J]

@Lord-Dreamerz, my apologies for seemingly offending due to communication errors on my part. It was not my intent to and I fully apologize for the harm done.

@Tornado, your reactions tell me that even after the effort I put into explaining my point of view so that it might be possible for others to see where I come from when talking about Amy in certain circumstances, that I still failed to do so. Also, allow me to apologize about my long-windedness. In my experience with my usually seemingly very out there viewpoints that get nearly everyone I meet feeling some compulsive urge to correct me I have developed the habit of explaining every little detail that influences my opinion in an attempt to make it possible for the person I am talking to understand where I am coming from. 

As for Amy and scrubbing her flaws clean that is not something I would want. I agree with @Skull Leader that that makes pretty much all characters boring and gives them little reason for self reflection or even the ability to make mistakes which will lead them to new experiences. My particular beef with Amy is her hammer and its use in a way that I can see as making using fear and violence to empower over entitlement. To me these are villainous traits and directly affiliated with her hammer. When she doesn't have it and acts that way she gets called out for being bratty and she is put on the spot for her actions. She may not still respond well which is fine, but she also is not able to get her entitled way through fear and threat of violence as her hammer has allowed her too. Sure a lot of that was also in the past and for the most part outside of comics her hammer hasn't even really appeared anymore. But the past is part of what makes up my history with the franchise and thus informs my viewpoints and opinions. Further, I don't see Amy as a role model for girls only, but everyone who sees her as one of the good guys. Her flaws are actually all the more important for that to work but when she can sweep them under the rug by waving her hammer around threateningly it just falls apart to me.

I hope I haven't come across as aggressive here, and don't mean to seem like I'm digging my heels in. I'm actually enjoying the discussion that sharing my opinion in detail has spawned and have admittedly probably spent too much time further detailing certain points when they get brought up. That's a flaw of my mine that I need to address as it seems to frequently result in me frustrating people. For that i apologize.

@Skull Leader I just wanted to reemphasize that I agree that getting rid of Amy's flaws would make her boring and one dimensional. To me she is sweet, playful, energetic, optimistic, adventurous, earnest, bratty, childish, social, headstrong, stubborn, hardworking, and so much more. But she doesn't need her hammer to be any of those things nor should she need it to be relevant to Sonic and the others. I've seen people say that her hammer is the only reason she is acceptable at all because it lets her keep with Sonic and the others and completely disregards everything else there is to her. I feel that is horrible and reduces her down to being just as one note a scrubbing away her flaws. But if being violent with her bouts of over-entitlement when they appear is a supposed to be a character flaw then it needs to explored as one and not just used to sweep her problems under the rug because everyone gets scarred of her wielding her hammer or just thinks it's cool. Confront her. Put her on the spot. Don't just turn a blind ye or encourage her to keep acting like that. Explore that aspect of her character and how it effects her and those she interacts with.

13 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Eh then you make her boring then and even less appealing then i think she already is.

I hate Amy Rose with a passion as it is, the hammer makes her stand out more.

Why not take away Miles Tails or Knuckles knuckles?

I find exploring how other characters make use of Sonic's gameplay is actually more interesting within the confines of the franchise then making them play in a way I find is removed from what gave birth to the franchise in the first place and why Sonic is a character that rolls. Though, I can see how Amy is unappealing as a character to you if you find her hammer is something she needs to stand out.

As for your second point, it's a peculiar leap in logic I've seen before when I've expressed this opinion and although I feel I understand it, it's one I can't wrap my head around because to me Amy's hammer is not to her as Tails' tails and Knuckles' knuckles. To me Tails and Knuckles were created with those traits and the gameplay that followed based around them. They were then fittingly named around them as well helping create their respective images. Amy's name on the other hand has nothing to do with her hammer which isn't surprising since she wasn't created with it. To the best of my knowledge when she was adapted from the manga she originated she was simply given the name Amy Rose and the reasoning behind it has never been explained. But it is easy interpret different meaning from her name and even her her nickname of Rosy the Rascal. Amy is a name which means loved, which plays into her being the love interest (regardless of Sonic's lack of interest) and roses are flowers frequently affiliated with displays of affection and known for having thorns, two more things which play into Amy both for her personalty and being a hedgehog. Then her nickname, Rosy, is both her color and her disposition with her rascal title implying she finds enjoyment in mischief which plays well into her being adventurous and willing to get herself involved with others without thinking about the consequences. Sure, maybe I'm over thinking this too, but that's just the way I see it.

If tasked with comparing Amy and her hammer to Tails and Knuckles I would actually compare it to the worst uses of Tails' genius and Knuckles role as the Guardian of the Master Emerald. I find it limiting and restricting of her character with the worse cases being that strips her of any meaningful use simply reducing her down to just being there to fill the role of hammerer. 

[MadmanRB]

5 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I find exploring how other characters make use of Sonic's gameplay is actually more interesting within the confines of the franchise then making them play in a way I find is removed from what gave birth to the franchise in the first place and why Sonic is a character that rolls. Though, I can see how Amy is unappealing as a character to you if you find her hammer is something she needs to stand out.

Well thats the thing, at least the hammer gives her something to work with and stand out more.

She is already the most annoying character in the Sonic franchise to me (yes worse than Big) with her crazy stalker fangirl persona.

I really hate her and yet because she is in segasonic she isnt hated like Sally, when Sally has her moments the segasonic fanboys all swarm to set her on fire yet when Amy is threatening violence against sonic so she can marry him like in heroes the segasonic fanboys all love her because she is "cannon" and "the one true pairing with sonic!"

To put it bluntly, to hell with Amy.

 

But at least with the hammer it gives her something more, otherwise she is just another crap generic character that sega chose to make official and leave far better characters like Sally and Lupe in the cold and in the dark.

[Sonic Fan J]

Honestly I don't defend Amy's violence myself and also don't like it. I like her more than Sally to be sure, my preference for the Japanese side of things resulting in me having ignored most American media for a very long time and preventing me from from really forming an opinion of her. What opinion I did have of her had nothing to do with Amy though and more how the Sonic from the comics felt like he was turned into a completely different character for her sake. Post reboot though I loved her friendship with Amy and how the two just got along so well.

[Fire-N-Space]

Just now, MadmanRB said:

Well thats the thing, at least the hammer gives her something to work with and stand out more.

She is already the most annoying character in the Sonic franchise to me (yes worse than Big) with her crazy stalker fangirl persona.

I really hate her and yet because she is in segasonic she isnt hated like Sally, when Sally has her moments the segasonic fanboys all swarm to set her on fire yet when Amy is threatening violence against sonic so she can marry him like in heroes the segasonic fanboys all love her because she is "cannon" and "the one true pairing with sonic!"

To put it bluntly, to hell with Amy.

 

But at least with the hammer it gives her something more, otherwise she is just another crap generic character that sega chose to make official and leave far better characters like Sally and Lupe in the cold and in the dark.

But if someone doesn't like a character so much that they say there are no good points from that character over exaggerating their personality and they don't really like the fans of said character as well. Then do their ideas for this character really hold any water?

  

[Sonic Fan J]

1 minute ago, Fire-N-Space said:

But if someone doesn't like a character so much that they say there are no good points from that character over exaggerating their personality and they don't really like the fans of said character as well. Then do their ideas for this character really hold any water?

  

Sure they hold water. They're explaining what makes the character work for them in any capacity. Even if its small or seems contradictory to others it shows that they still have hope for the character and it it makes it that much more important.
To simplify, I don't like the hammer, but if it was to be gotten rid of @MadmanRB would no longer have any reason to like Amy at all. It would give them further incentive to not care for the games which is not something SEGA would want. It has to be taken into consideration at the very least from a business standpoint where as my dislike does not stop me from buying the games or wanting Amy playable. From a business perspective @MadmanRB's perspective is actually more important than mine.

[MadmanRB]

11 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

But if someone doesn't like a character so much that they say there are no good points from that character over exaggerating their personality and they don't really like the fans of said character as well. Then do their ideas for this character really hold any water?

Yes

One can still hate a character and want to do something with them.

It would be nice if they made Amy into something more, something better.

And the thing is they kind of did that but not with sega Amy

 

Fleetway Amy and Boom Amy prove this, I actually really like those two versions of Amy.

Fleetway could hold her own and Boom Amy is fun and flirty but in a good way.

I actually wish Boom Amy was "canon", she isnt perfect but since Sonic boom is a comedy series and plot demands the characterization I can forgive her as she is still better than Sega Amy.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Tornado said:

I feel like people in fandoms dramatically overthinking characters and checking everything against their internal wants for them is a much more common one.

That sounds like interpreting characters. Yes that can get annoying " every character who is upset , is now vegeta " ( I saw someone say batman is basically vegeta ) , but its just discussion.

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You know that I don't like? Like, really, really don't like? People attempting to scrub all character flaws from fictional characters because they don't like them being there. Because what they want is the idealized version of the character they've constructed in their head rather than the character as it actually exists. That's what the OP reads to me, at least when it's not rambling for paragraphs at a time onto completely unrelated tangents; and every attempt he has made to argue it since then has made it sound like he's digging in rather than actually trying to have a conversation.

If I didn't find the basis for the argument so inherently ridiculous and primarily against things the series was mostly doing over a decade ago, I would think the discussion was more worth having in detail.

I also don't like that, however I don't think that what was the OP was about. I don't think OP was advocating Amy loose flaws, but rather the flaws she has in place not only serve her poorly in terms of gameplay but as characterization particularly a female character may serve to put her behind her male counterparts in ways that don't need to be there, and could be removed. I don't think OP wants amy to be perfect unless I misread or missed something. I think she wants the character to evolve. And to be frank, I kinda agree, with the whole sonic cast. 

They could do for a re-imagining  to quite honest, and before you say sonic boom, another one. I think we are due for a Classic to Modern /adventure kinda design redo. 

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As it is this thread is only a hair removed from that topic a few years ago that talked about how awesomely deep Sonic is as a character before rattling off a bunch of allegedly different character traits and examples that basically just amounted to how incorruptibly purely pure he is. The main difference in that thread (aside from Verte being much better at getting to the point) was that it was based off of things that Sonic actually did in the games and she was merely ascribing meaning to it that really wasn't there. In comparison this thread is based on a bunch of throwaway sentences in manuals from a long-dead continuity of the series and the OP's secondhand conjecture made from applying real world logic to the backstory of the few games Amy was in before she actually became a main character, all confusingly done as a rallying point against something that was primarily in force way back when Sonic Team USA was still making the games. To what end?

To try and suggest that maybe amy's character should be allowed to go some place else, and maybe they have locked her in a position that never really gives her the best light unless she's literally being written by other people in supplementary material. Using previous works , as as suggestions and criticisms of where she can go and what her potential might be. To start a discussion , maybe if people feel similarly. That would be the end. 

Hey, not for nothing but uh? Are tired of the idea of a forum? Because maybe being a mod , isn't the best thing to do , maybe?

Because it seems like you are tired of the idea of a forum, and fan opinions what have you. 

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Yeah, Amy was an unnecessarily violent and generally badly-written mess in Sonic X and Heroes and Battle, and without her hammer it wouldn't have been as obvious. Basically anything done with her would have been better than how she was in those things; which is especially important better things have been done since all of that media was made nearly 15 years ago. But Amy needs to control and play and act like a girl version of Sonic (who frequently in the games is barely even a character) so she can be a better role model to little girls and better represent gender equality in the series and live up to these expectations barely based on anything that the OP has erected for her? Get the fuck out of here.

Advocating for the female character you show off the most in a franchise for children being a bit more independent capable in both design in execution in the modern day might not be the worst idea. I mean that's basically comic amy , which just goes back to my previous statement, it literally needs to be written by someone else. 

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Those are not fantasy elements.

Bruh?

Magical jewels guarded by a shaman then embue power to the individuals who weild it, and the ability to manipulate elements around you like fire and time and space don't sound magical to you?

Ok, sure. 

 

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The issue with this is:

1: The Sonic series is not built from that basis; and Harry Potter's establishment of the magical elements it contains are a huge part of the world building of every book to deliberately contrast it with the real world of scientific understanding that the series uses as a backdrop.

except for the magical jewels, and the ancient temples, and the shaman guarding them and the ancient magical beast that lived with in the super jewel that was literally baby souls. And the ancient prophecy , and the powers gained when organic being use the chaos emeralds vs technological ones. 

On that note , yes. Nature vs Industrialism is sort of a thing that has been and keeps popping up in sonic, even to... the last game. A common trope of this however, is nature being represented via magic, and given the literal magic that sonic characters can doesn't take away from the technological basis that the main villain of the series is built on, but rather enforces. That eggman will never actually know the true power of these powerful jewels, because he will never embrace that natural element, he will quite literally never feel the magic. So he takes to using them as energy sources. 

 

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2: Shadow's backstory has never implied a fantasy upbringing, no matter how many holes it had from game to game. The closest it ever got to it was when the series gave a collective shrug and said that no one could explain Shadow, but that does not mean "magic".

I don't think I ever said that I do think I said using shadow isn't the best example because we quite literally don't know. I mean if we find out one day that will be neat, I mean I doubt we will until the series gets a reboot or the people higher up at sonic team literally leave, because apparently there's a bunch of back story stuff they specifically want to do. But yeah. 

 

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I'm pretty sure attempts of that nature was literally the basis of all three of the games that Sonic Team USA made.

Again, literally the majority of the story for all three of the games Sonic Team USA developed.

No its not? Those are shadow andriods, and the point was in all three of those games was that shadow was special and could not infact be replicated. To the degree in which, eggman took to try to lie about shadow to convince him to listen to him. To convince he could replicate him at his whim. But he couldn't...which was the point. 

If you don't remember shadow the hedgehog, I don't blame you its not good. But I do, and I will bring it up. Also if you think shadow being able to replicated is the point of SA2, you didn't play that game. Or are fudging the truth to try and further a point...or both. I don't know you. ( because maybe the whole point in the end was shadow was special and unique that was the point. )

 

[Sonic Fan J]

@Shadowlax, I find Studio Ghibli's Castle in the Sky is kind of a good example of magic and technology interacting without the magic side seeming disingenuous to the rest of the setting.

Also, no, I was definitely not trying to say strip Amy of her negative traits. I think they could be handled better but her use of the hammer makes them hard to address in universe which to me is a shame.