Do you think Classic Sonic should appear again in a Modern game?

[Tarnish]

But to get back on topic, I don't think classic anybody should make a return. I never wanted classic Sonic to return in the first place, as what I was missing was the gameplay experience, not the character itself. Just because they are using their old looks doesn't make anything better if the game is still shit. And Generations failed to give me that experience btw.

Nostalgia only lasts so long, before the dozens of problems the games have start to take the spotlight of attention.

[MadmanRB]

6 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

But to get back on topic, I don't think classic anybody should make a return. I never wanted classic Sonic to return in the first place, as what I was missing was the gameplay experience, not the character itself. Just because they are using their old looks doesn't make anything better if the game is still shit. And Generations failed to give me that experience btw.

Well perhaps thats why you dont like Generations, as classic sonic does play better in that than modern sonic in that game thanks to the boost to win mechanic.

Sure its not 1:1 gameplay to classic sonic games but its close enough.

Compared to forces its so much better.

[Tarnish]

4 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Sure its not 1:1 gameplay to classic sonic games but its close enough.

Close enough sadly is not good enough for me. Especially when a rag-tag team of indie devs can make it 1:1.

[MadmanRB]

1 minute ago, Tarnish said:

Close enough sadly is not good enough for me. Especially when a rag-tag team of indie devs can make it 1:1.

I am willing to be more forgiving, I actually think Sonic Team did a great job for what its worth for Generations.

I am more forgiving there than I am with Forces to be sure, Forces is really bad with its classic emulation.

At least Generations is mostly 1:2 while forces is 1:8... gah!

Seriously revisit generations to see what I mean, stack that with forces and you get why I am more forgiving on generations

[Bobnik]

Short answer - no and if they're gonna do that ever again, I'm done.

Longer answer - SEGA shouldn't have been given in to the pressure from that one very loud part of the fanbase that were "GREEN EYES REEEEE"  after that SGC trailer of Sonic 4 and IMO should've just stuck with the Modern design for Generations. The day they put both designs in the same game was the day the division in the fanbase became fully solidified and no attempt at "joining the parts of the fandom together" is gonna work at all, no matter how great the game is.

I'm saying this because after Generations, Modern part of the franchise has been taking a lot of inspirations from the Classic counterpart when it comes to art-design, and it's such a big downgrade compared to previous games (except for maybe Edgy the Hedgie and Sonic 4 Episode 1). I want to see something that actually fits Modern Sonic - a bit more grounded and detailed, but still has some surrealisms here and there (like Colors, Unleashed, SA1 or even Heroes), not a weird amalgamation of Classic's art-design and worst parts of Modern's art-design.

[RustyRick]

HECK NO!

Classic Sonic to me only worked in Generations because the whole point of that game was to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the series with a visual representation of 2 Sonic's from way back then, and in the present, and with 2 distinct styles of gameplay focus.
The only slight gripe I had about Classic Sonic in Generations was how he's a silent mime character without a voice, and I knew that was due to executive decisions because they couldn't get Jaleel on board for it if I recall correctly, so they went with that, but I was fine with Classic Sonic nonetheless.

Come Forces, and.... no. Incorporating Classic Sonic as part of Forces' story and gameplay was a bad decision because it's Sonic Team trying to pander to the nostalgia factor either because they think repeating the same trick again will work, or they couldn't come up with a justification for Modern Sonic in 2D-only stages despite you know, Colors having had a good bunch of them and it working out just fine?

Story-wise his inclusion felt entirely unnecessary too, it was obviously a tie-in to Mania's Good Ending for Sonic, but nothing Classic Sonic accomplishes or does really means anything, and what's up with him being treated as a separate Sonic from a different dimension? I thought Generations logically treated him as a younger visual representation from the past? Plus it's even worse that Tails would end up having this awkward bond with Classic Sonic because would that imply that current Sonic/This Dimension's Sonic isn't his BFF? He's litterally the same character! If ST really needed to incorporate a seperate dimension/universe's Sonic into it. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Boom Sonic would have made more sense in  this context. 

Plus, gameplay-wise was just a total mess, and to rub salt into the wound, one of Classic's last stages has him feature in a slow auto-scroller. What is this, un-charming Bridge Zone from 8-Bit Sonic 1?

So simply put, no. Classic Sonic only worked because of Generations' setup and at best should only be appearing again as a alternate skin or in spinoffs where story or context doesn't matter like maybe Sonic Runners or the upcoming Team Sonic Racing, but as a major story element? The image says it all.

Keep Classic Sonic to oldschool-inspired games, keep Modern Sonic to his own schtick.

[Indigo Rush]

Well, no. But I think this is addressing a symptom rather than the illness itself. SEGA has chosen to present to us two totally different Sonics as if there's no other way for them to handle how inconsistent the series has become in regards to it's gameplay, it's story, it's artstyles, etc. The real issue isn't simply that Classic Sonic is butting into Modern Sonic's games, but that there even needs to be a distinction. I'm not talking about how they're designed, you can put a skinny green-eyed Sonic in a 2D Classic styled platformer and short pudgy Sonic in a 3D Modern styled platformer and still have a good and a bad game (respectively). 

Sonic Forces' problems don't stop at Classic Sonic. His presence simply adds another mis-matching gameplay style that obstructs what the target audience supposedly wants. Forces certainly would've been more focused if it were just Modern Sonic, the Avatar, and the Tag-Team stages, but removing Classic levels to focus on those won't necessarily improve the rest of the content, at least not to such a degree that it would actually make for a better experience for those remaining levels. Same in regards to level themes. We might get more levels dedicated to Modern or the Avatar, and those levels, without Classic Sonic's presence, would likely still be based on that era, because from SEGA's perspective internally, levels like Green Hill or Chemical Plant aren't Classic Sonic exclusive areas, but Sonic areas in general. Green Hill is an overarching Sonic environment and has been ever present throughout the series history, including the Adventure era of games. But I digress, the point is that Forces would still likely have those levels, and those levels would still be just as shallow and automated as they are now. You'd just get more of them.

In summary... it's a quality issue, and while Classic Sonic's gameplay muddies the waters, it isn't the source problem. It's a symptom of Sonic Team's ineptitude. Ousting him isn't necessarily going to make Modern Sonic games good again on a purely technical, game-design level. You're still going to get uninspired sidescrolling areas, linear 3-lane roads and cinematic automation that doesn't rely on player input beyond a QTE. This isn't what Sonic needs to be, and it'll take more than removing Classic Sonic to fix it.

[StaticMania]

Classic Sonic's actual appearance in game doesn't effect the quality, so it doesn't really matter if he comes back or not.

There is no "should"...because his appearance will just be forced whether they provide context or not at this point.

[Marco9966]

Can't anybody tweet this thread to Aaron Webber??

Show SEGA that both factions agree on this, whether we're modern fans or classic fans!! Classic Sonic needs to be gone from the modern games!

[Marcello]

No. All he is is a gimmicky crutch used by Sonic Team to sell the game without bothering to make a good game.

At least for the main games.

Go nuts with spin-offs. I'd love to see Classic-era characters like the main 4, Nack, Bean etc in games like Team Sonic Racing or Mario and Sonic.

2 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Well perhaps thats why you dont like Generations, as classic sonic does play better in that than modern sonic in that game thanks to the boost to win mechanic.

Sure its not 1:1 gameplay to classic sonic games but its close enough.

Compared to forces its so much better.

Eh, I disagree. Classic Sonic felt off and the level design wasn't very good. Modern was more fun to play in Generations.

[Sean]

24 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Can't anybody tweet this thread to Aaron Webber??

Show SEGA that both factions agree on this, whether we're modern fans or classic fans!! Classic Sonic needs to be gone from the modern games!

Oh hell no I don't want Aaron or anyone respectable working at Sega even making a cursory glance at these forums

[Bobnik]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Oh hell no I don't want Aaron or anyone respectable working at Sega even making a cursory glance at these forums

I mean, he comes in here from time to time, so he's probably reading all of this sooner or later anyway. That's kinda his job.

Sorry for off-topic btw

[Marco9966]

There was also a survey by SEGA back when Forces was released, I filled it saying what I had to say about Classic Sonic.

Did any of you guys fill it too?

[knuckles20]

^Yeah I filled it out too. Doubt they would consider it but my response was basically cool it with the nostalgia pandering, have the 3D games be “3D games” and I missed playing as other characters. (No I’m not playing Mania because I’m tired of the classic fest).

[Marco9966]

"I was opposed to [Sega's] decision to create games that use 'Sonic-something' so that they can sell it easily. I wanted to make good games, not any games that used the Sonic character in a haphazard way."
- Hirokazu Yasuhara, original Sonic game and level designer

[Multikaris]

I’ve become so sick of Classic, in fact, that I would sacrifice the potential appearance of the likes of the Hooligans in a spin-off game just to keep him out.

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I’ve become so sick of Classic, in fact, that I would sacrifice the potential appearance of the likes of the Hooligans in a spin-off game just to keep him out.

Me too, if that's what it takes so be it.

[NikoS]

Quote

Do you think Classic Sonic should appear again in a Modern game?

Quick answer:

Spoiler

 

For real, i like the classic games, i really do, but i also like the modern games, i'm very happy with mania and i'm looking forward to what's next in that department, now please do give us a proper modern (3D) game, not a semi-modern-game-which-a-third-of-it-is-classic-gameplay-but-downgraded. If it is to do a Unleashed style modern game (2D/3D) do it, but so help me, don't do this again.

 

[Sonic Fan J]

The weird thing about this topic to me is what is Classic Sonic. You can't tell me that it's anything pre-Adventure because the core concept of Sonic is still present; the stories of Sonic and his adventures where he encounters Eggman. This hasn't changed and isn't likely to anytime soon. Is it the gameplay then? Likely not that either since the Advance games are known for further evolving that gameplay. is it the aesthetic then? Questionable since Oshima and Yasuhara's aesthetic is radically different from Uekawa and the current team's interpretation. Is it his age then? No, since he is still described between 15 and 16 and at a meter in height as well. Is it his personality then? Since Naka and company designed Sonic as impertinent and cheeky and even pushed the redesign to shed the cute image Sonic was developing that doesn't seem it either, especially since "Classic" has really been pushed hard as cute and innocent in total disregard to his cheeky side. It could perhaps just be a well marketed facsimile that we all bought into hard but have since seen it for what it was. A soulless copy that really accomplished nothing in the long run but rekindling a desire out of fans of the pre-Adventure content for a return to that time. The dichotomy between Mania Adventures, Mania in general, and what you see in Forces and Generations where it is how modern Sonic Team sees the Oshima design and Yasuhara's work really drives home how different the idea of "Classic" Sonic is interpreted between parties.

To answer the question then, if a serious effort is not going to be made to acknowledge the differences and similarities, instead just marketing with an easily seen through facsimile, then the "Classic" marketing should be dropped. A BOOM! crossover would make significantly more sense since there is actually a legitimate difference in philosophies and life styles of the two Sonic's. But since "Classic" is still the same guy with the same philosophies and types of stories having the same character is just redundant, especially when only one of them talks and adds anything to narrative. Beyond being a skin, there just isn't any point.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They should go back to treating them as the same instead of this ridiculous divide they’ve begun to entertain.

Seriously, it’s like they’ve become so timid and lack any confidence or ability in making games that they resorted to this.

[Sonic Fan J]

The only thing I really like about the divide is the potential to explore possibilities that were lost with the transition to Adventure. Once Adventure set the new status quo there wasn't really any going back without a major reboot. Of course some of my thoughts just stir up trouble so I'll leave them out, but some of the content in the Japanese manuals are concepts I think that could be better explored on the classic side of the divide. With that said though, if they could just unify everything again that would be better, but the question is how with the mess they've made?

[mikeblastdude]

I remember back in 2011 when I, and many others here, were really excited to see Sonic’s classic design again after so long in Sonic Generations. It was so great to see a return of Classic Sonic. I wasn’t really a huge fan of how he was treated as a separate, almost “goofy sidekick” type character, but aside from that, I still really liked Generations.

Then came Sonic Forces. I know that not everyone was super keen on Classic Sonic’s implementation in Generations in the first place, but it’s clear that it’s this one single game that really turned this whole thing into a real issue. It’s funny how one game turned something that was once thought of as a generally positive thing, Classic Sonic in a Modern game, into one of the series’ biggest problems that we as fans all seem to unanimously agree on. Back in 2011, I never would have expected to see people wanting to see less Classic Sonic years down the line. The way that Classic Sonic was shoehorned and handled in Forces really was bad enough to have this effect, I suppose.

But yeah, with all that being said, I pretty much agree with what others have been saying. I’d still prefer if Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic weren’t considered to be two separate characters in the first place, but if they are going to stick with that, then the Classic and Modern games should be able to coexist just fine, without shoving a goofy version of Classic Sonic into the Modern games.

[SaturnWolf]

No, definitely not.

Him being in Generations as like, a one time thing was a cool thing because we were told that it was the only time something like that would happen. And that was cool! It made the game more special and have it's own unique identity. Come Sonic Mania, Classic Sonic being is own sort of small spinoff series being helmed by Taxman and Stealth is also cool since they made the best versions of Sonic 1 and 2 and made Sonic CD actually tolerable for me. 

Then come Forces? Where he added absolutely nothing to the game in terms of plot or gameplay? Sonic Forces retroactively made Sonic Generations significantly less special by doing more or less the same things it did but significantly worse in every single regard. It's clear that Sonic Team can't (or simply won't) make a good "Classic" Sonic experience anymore, be it out of something as simple as the physics engine or wanting to put their own modern spin on it, so why have him there at all?

Let Modern Sonic stand on his own merits without having to fall back on past glories. Keep Classic in his own subseries.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

26 minutes ago, mikeblastdude said:

Back in 2011, I never would have expected to see people wanting to see less Classic Sonic years down the line. The way that Classic Sonic was shoehorned and handled in Forces really was bad enough to have this effect, I suppose.

It’s amazing how this is the same sentiment that was given to Shadow, with the same reactionary defense as well.

What’s sad is that many parties will refuse to learn from all this, if this fandom’s history is any indication.

[Iko]

I'm probably late to this thread, though, I agree with most people: Classic Sonic should not appear in Modern games, and they should start considering Sonic one single entity again.

Especially, the part that I dislike the most about this division, is the division in gameplay elements: there are elements that are considered classic, and elements that are considered modern; for example, you can't have a modern game that's completely 2D and sprite based, because that's considered classic stuff.

I would like "Classic" and "Modern" to disappear and be just Sonic once again, I wouldn't mind using the classic design for some games, but it should only be an artistic decision and not something that affects the plot of the game or the canon of the whole series.

I especially want to see classic-like physics and gameplay elements in modern games, I don't want Modern Sonic stuck with a flawed formula because those elements that may improve it are exclusive to the Classic side of the franchise.