Team Sonic Racing - E3 Demo Footage/Impressions

[Plasme]

To be fair, the lead designer is an industry veteran with over 10 years experience in game design, he just hasn't worked on racers or any of the all stars games. Most of his work seems to be shooters and mobile games/apps. Which kind of isn't surprising when you think of the team fps influence on the game. 

I hope the team can do a good job, and the game doesn't look bad or anything. However, it's obviously not as good as Transformed, and I think we should accept that it's because the game's team is completely unrelated to Transformed's.

[Pawn]

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

To be fair, the lead designer is an industry veteran with over 10 years experience in game design, he just hasn't worked on racers or any of the all stars games. Most of his work seems to be shooters and mobile games/apps. Which kind of isn't surprising when you think of the team fps influence on the game. 

I hope the team can do a good job, and the game doesn't look bad or anything. However, it's obviously not as good as Transformed, and I think we should accept that it's because the game's team is completely unrelated to Transformed's.

Not that Iizuka is always reliable, but he did claim that he or SEGA wanted a team-based Sonic racer rather than a sequel to the All-Stars brand, so I doubt Sumo had much of a say in the overall driection for the game. No matter how good the team is, they have a very tricky outline to work towards (and likely a lower budget).

[Fire-N-Space]

Just now, Jango said:

One thing Transformed got so right was balancing the characters. Hopefully they don't miss that point too.

If you mean by stats no they didn't Amy couldn't get higher than three speed VS someone with six boost and five speed. 

[Blue Blood]

Having just played some ASRT for the first time in, like forever, what made that game so brilliant has been refreshed in my mind. By standard, ASRT was faster and heavier than Mario Kart, with tracks wide enough that you never had to worry about collisions even at the start of the race and long twists to prioritise drifting as a main mechanic. The action didn't really slow down at all. Winning in this game really does rely on drift boosts, and the entire experience becomes quite tepid without them. There's also the tricking mechanic - whenever you're in the air, you can trick in any of the four cardinal directions. Chaining multiple tricks allows you to fine tune where you land and gain boosts, all with the risk of crash-landing if not timed correctly

The weapons in that game only complimented the design. While it's a real shame that they were generic items like fireworks, snowballs and baseball gloves rather than being based on the multitude of SEGA IPs included in the game, they functioned very differently to Mario Kart. The snowball and rocket were blindingly fast, allowing you to hit targets that were way off in the distance even though they lacked homing capabilities. The fireworks would bounce like the green shells, while snowballs would break upon collision with an obstacle. What made the snowballs special though was that they could stack up to three times - each hit freezing the target more than the last. Triple items were particularly common in this game. There was also the drone; the technical red shell, but it was much slower and easily outrun with drifting or on-track boosters. 

It wasn't perfect. But it set itself apart from Mario Kart with it's core gameplay style. Whether you were driving, boating or flying, it was very much a unique beast. I understand that the transforming aspect of the vehicles made the game significantly more difficult to pick up and play, with people also arguing that boating and flying weren't as refined as driving, but I personally adored it. It doesn't necessarily need to return for the sequel though, so I'm not disappointed by the choice to focus on different mechanics this time.

Team Sonic Racing, considering that we've only seen one level so far and on an presumably low difficulty/speed setting, doesn't seem to be holding up. The Planet Wisp track is wide, but doesn't have nearly as many tricking capabilities. There's just one spot at the end of the track I think. The idea of the tracks being so wide also seems a bit strange here. While the gameplay is still about drifting, mechanics in this game also seem to focus on teammates being close to each other to slingshot and perform the drive-by boosts. Plus the track has no fewer than three branching paths... why? That goes completely against the team gameplay design.

As noted in the interview video above, the Planet Wisp track also lacks any obstacles for the power characters to take care of. It's perfectly possible that these will be added in later, but even so it points to a glaring flaw in arbitrary design. Speed characters always have the ability to shunt players away with the radial burst whilst drifting, and technique characters can survive off-road without consequence for a brief amount of time. Power characters however have abilities that only work in specific areas. Their racing abilities are contextual, potentially even useless a lot of the time. 

The Wisps are potentially a step-down from what I feel were brilliantly executed pickups in ASRT. We haven't seen clear footage of them all so far, so it's possibly a bit early to say. The Red Wisp grants you a boost that leaves a fiery trail in your wake. In theory, you can easily set this up to create an unavoidable trap for those trailing behind you. Maybe that's the intent, with it also being a double-edged sword that could hurt your teammates. The hotrod in ASRT was similar, and something I much preferred to this (all in theory right now, of course). The hotrod granted you constant, rapid acceleration. But if you held it for too long, you'd overheat and crash. The way around this was to timely detonate the hotrod, creating an explosion around you that would damage other racers near-by. It was a real risk and reward situation. We've also seen the Crimson Wisp act like red shells, the Orange act like the ASRT rocket, Blue Wisps act like banana peels and White Wisps functioning as simple boosts. Problem is, there are 14 different weapons this time around. Especially considering that you're encouraged to share them with teammates to improve their capabilities, the focus on weapons goes against the focus on drifting in ASRT. It's not a bad change necessarily, but it is one that will likely change the dynamics of the race a lot. 

Team Sonic Racing looks like it's going to be solid. No doubts there. I just don't like the approach it's taking. It's dull, potentially unbalanced and designed with many arbitrary features that sound better on paper than they actually work in game.

[Plasme]

Agreed with everything Blue Blood said. Excellent breakdown of what made Transformed so brilliant!

One aspect I'm really concerned about is the tracks, and I haven't really seen anyone talk about this. Not the music, I've mentioned before how awful the music is on Wisp Circuit and how it sounds nothing like Planet Wisp. The circuits themselves look really boring, both design wise and art wise. I'm going to use some images to punctuate my point. Planet Wisp is one of my favourite environments in all of Sonic. Generations is over 5 years old, and Planet Wisp still looks great:

But Planet Wisp in Team Sonic Racing looks nowhere near as good as the picture above. The lush, vibrant greenery isn't there and it looks far less alien and unique. With the emphasis on wisps and it being called 'Wisp Circuit' you think they would get at least this part right. In fact, I'm not going to lie, when I put the two pictures side by side like this, I could really see just how much the graphics and art style have downgraded from Generations. It's so blocky and geometric in Team Sonic Racing, there's no organic feeling to it at all. 

I think a big problem with the vapid art style is the focus of the level as a race track first and foremost. I can see where they are going with this, this is a racing game after all, but it just removes the 'Sonic' identity from the game. It's like the level is a race track first and foremost, with some Sonic flavour on the side, rather than you are actually racing through Planet Wisp.

Case in point, Transformed got this right with Seaside Hill:

You are on a race track on Seaside Hill too, but it actually looks like Seaside Hill, it doesn't look like a generic race track you would see in any game with Seaside Hill on the side to add some flavour. And the islands and trees are far more organic and look a lot better.

This is something which has really been bugging me over the last week or so but I haven't really seen anyone point it out.

[Blue Blood]

One of the first complaints people had about this game upon seeing the screenshots and gameplay was the artstyle. It's taking the low detail, bright and bold colours approach that the series has played around with in Lost World and Forces. The track is called Wisp Circuit, and you've got to remember that Planet Wisp is partially industrialised by Eggman. Later portions of the track take place around a giant a tree rather than on purpose-built roads. 

You can't tell me that that'sany different to what the two two previous games did. We'll have to see what the levels do on a case-by-case basis. At the very least, we also know that at least some of Rooftop Run will involve driving on random floating glass roads in the sky, rather than through the city itself. I can only hope that that's just a small part of the track, because there's so much potential for the city as a racetrack, complete with the clock tower, streets, aqueducts, underground and mountains. 

It's the artstyle that really bothers me from a visual standpoint. It's so soft and characterless. In the screenshot I've poster above, you can see that that grass hanging over the cliffs is round and regularly patterned, almost like a piece of cloth. The wood texts there Sonic is driving are very, very basic and simple. I just dislike the style. That's my biggest concern as far as visuals are concerned. But I agree with you @Plasme, and do hope the  levels involve more creative use of the enviroments as well. It's another thing that ASRT did brilliantly, especially when the tracks themselves were subject to change as the races went on.

[Plasme]

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I keep forgetting about the tree. I guess it's just because it's so dull visually, but I think it's also important that the tree sextion looks like nothing from Planet Wisp. So even when I see footage of that section, I don't feel like I'm in Planet Wisp, which is a bit of a problem, especially when the music sounds so off  

I'm also really concerned about the glass sky track on Rooftop Run. If we drive above Rooftop Run rather than through it, that would be really boring and, again, make it so that you don't feel you are really in Rooftop Run. Instead it's just rooftop run on the side.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, Plasme said:

Yeah, I can see what you mean. I keep forgetting about the tree. I guess it's just because it's so dull visually, but I think it's also important that it looks like nothing from Planet Wisp. So even when I see footage of that section, I don't feel like I'm in Planet Wisp, which is a bit of a problem, especially when the music sounds so off  

If you listen closely, you can hear that parts of the Planet Wisp melody have been recreated in Jun Senoue's trademark hit 'n' miss buttrock style. It's definitely a miss in this case.

[Plasme]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

If you listen closely, you can hear that parts of the Planet Wisp melody have been recreated in Jun Senoue's trademark hit 'n' miss buttrock style. It's definitely a miss in this case.

I know I criticised Richard Jacques before for his work on Boom, but I think his music would have been far more compelling. Especially as the soundtrack for Transformed was pretty good. That Senoue take on Planet Wisp is so far removed from the original that it barely even resembles it.

[LukA8]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

As noted in the interview video above, the Planet Wisp track also lacks any obstacles for the power characters to take care of. It's perfectly possible that these will be added in later, but even so it points to a glaring flaw in arbitrary design. Speed characters always have the ability to shunt players away with the radial burst whilst drifting, and technique characters can survive off-road without consequence for a brief amount of time. Power characters however have abilities that only work in specific areas. Their racing abilities are contextual, potentially even useless a lot of the time.

Power characters also get exclusive Wisps like Bomb and presumably Quake, or at least have higher odds at obtaining them (the previews said different things). Also, there is only one tiny off-road section in Wisp Circuit where Technique may be useful. So while the Speed ability is definitely more universal, Technique and Power will depend a lot on the other track layouts. 

Also not surprised to see S0L, SumoRex and the rest moving on. They approached Sega to make another All-Stars Racer/Fighter several times for at least two years after Transformed, but Sega seemingly wasn't interested in the IP anymore (and had their whole Boom craze going on), and many people did notice that Sega was pushing All-Stars into more of an "Everybody's Racing" direction with Transformed, which took some of its identity and is a shame since those guys were so passionate about the old Sega IPs. That being said, the new lead designer seems competent from what I've seen and since they are in contact with the old developers and imported so much from Transformed, I don't see this as anything to worry about.

[Jango]

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

I know I criticised Richard Jacques before for his work on Boom, but I think his music would have been far more compelling. Especially as the soundtrack for Transformed was pretty good. That Senoue take on Planet Wisp is so far removed from the original that it barely even resembles it.

Where you guys are hearing anything from Planet Wisp in that new track? O.o

I must be deaf, because I can't hear a single note from the original PW music in this...

Which makes me think.. will every track have its own original music instead of remixes, like Forces did it with Green Hill, Chemical Plant and so on? Seriously, this sounds nothing like Planet Wisp.

[Plasme]

8 minutes ago, Jango said:

Where are you guys are hearing anything from Planet Wisp in that new track? O.o

I must be deaf, because I can't hear a single note from the original PW music in this...

Which makes me think.. will every track have its own original music instead of remixes, like Forces did it with Green Hill, Chemical Plant and so on? Seriously, this sounds nothing like Planet Wisp.

The opening notes of Planet Wisp (the famous motif which runs throughout the song) can be barely heard at certain points in Team Racing, but the music track has been so overhauled that it's essentially a different song. I agree that the music so far is a cause for concern, especially since Planet Wisp has a fucking great song which has been made far more boring and uninspired in Team Racing.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Personally, I don't know how to feel about the Wisp OST, beyond the fact it's seemingly ruined of my favourite songs in the series. One of the best things about the original version in Colours was how beautiful and peaceful it was before shifting into a little more energized portion. It represents the stage perfectly between the balance of the peaceful and beautiful world being ruined by the chaos Eggman's inflicted with his machines.

Even in Generations, I found the remixes somewhat bleh because they tried to fully add a lot of energy to it, Classic especially. Modern's mix is decent but I still love the original version a lot more. But here? It's practically unrecognizable, and nowhere near in a good way.

[Badnik Mechanic]

8 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Do you know if Steve Lycett is still with Sumo? He was the one that was active here during the release of the All Stars games, right?

As far as I'm aware he's still at Sumo.

 

But I'm not bothering him regarding it's development or if he's going to hang out here.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, LukA8 said:

Power characters also get exclusive Wisps like Bomb and presumably Quake, or at least have higher odds at obtaining them (the previews said different things). Also, there is only one tiny off-road section in Wisp Circuit where Technique may be useful. So while the Speed ability is definitely more universal, Technique and Power will depend a lot on the other track layouts.

Its also been said that Power characters have better resistance/recovery to hazards and attacks - which is a pretty big bonus in of itself for a weaponized racer. As the heavier members of the cast, it also stands to reason that they are capable of being more of a bully to lesser characters, knocking them off the racing lines with greater ease.

[Jango]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Personally, I don't know how to feel about the Wisp OST, beyond the fact it's seemingly ruined of my favourite songs in the series. One of the best things about the original version in Colours was how beautiful and peaceful it was before shifting into a little more energized portion. It represents the stage perfectly between the balance of the peaceful and beautiful world being ruined by the chaos Eggman's inflicted with his machines.

Even in Generations, I found the remixes somewhat bleh because they tried to fully add a lot of energy to it, Classic especially. Modern's mix is decent but I still love the original version a lot more. But here? It's practically unrecognizable, and nowhere near in a good way.

I do too love me some Planet Wisp music. Come to think about it, a remix of Planet Wisp Act 3 song would've been perfect, since it has a faster beat. But obviously, Sonic Team had to fuck that one up too :V 

When music was ever a concern in a SONIC game? If there's one thing I knew I could always rest easy about the next Sonic game was the music department. 

I also love Rooftop Run's theme, watch them screw another of my favorites. 

God, I miss Kenichi, Fumie, Naofumi... Even freaking Ohtani, he nail'd it with Runners soundtrack.

[JezMM]

Going back a few pages but, regarding Tails' voice lines, I think what bothers me is that I never imagined him as being this "cocky wannabe".  Even if we take the interpretation that the lines are cute/funny because he's trying so hard to be badass and failing... that's still just not Tails to me.

It's this kind of annoying thing where like... not every character NEEDS to be funny.  Stop trying to make us guffaw with every single line - especially if we're going to be hearing them multiple times over possibly the course of even a single race.

My idea for Tails' voicelines?  Endless positivity.  He's psyched to be racing with his friends - I feel like the Tails I cared for wouldn't necessarily be as polite as Cream or anything but he'd show an actual respect for his opponents, a focus on technicalities and celebrations of his own success over downplaying others.  Stuff like "Better luck next time!" or "Yeah, a direct hit!"  Like... can't Tails NOT have an attitude and be a cute lil' dork instead.

 

Regarding Jun's music, I am slightly afraid of it all being of a similar tone.  I have to remind myself that Jun DOES have a range because Planet Wisp's song is nice but is completely lacking in any of the atmosphere or "serene"ness the original had.  I am concerned that we're gonna get a very straight-played rock remix of Rooftop Run that does nothing to reflect it's beautiful new visual aesthetic.

I dunno, it's hard what to make of Jun sometimes.  You have cases where he's very creative - I still love his dark take on Chemical Plant in Generations for example, or how the poppy fun of Casino Park and Digital Circuit being leagues away from his usual rock stylings.  He did some wonderful stuff for the menus in Black Knight.

But then you also have dire tracks like Sonic 4 Episode 1's final boss theme, the utter "didn't give a shit at all" flavour of Episode 2's eggman boss theme, and how masturbatory he was about just straight re-recording all of the songs he originally composed for Sonic Generations (Speed Highway, Emerald Coast, Egg Emperor etc) rather than bothering to remix them at all, as if they're his babies and not to be tampered with.  City Escape Act 2 was a pleasant exception (even though the Act 1 remix kind of overshadowed it still).

[Red Hot Jack]

Besides, not only it is out of character, it's just a wrong idea, Tails is supposed to be pure, and Team Sonic should be a group of heroes, not bullies like Wave, I'm not sure how this Tails could fit here.

[D.K.]

People say that the new track "ruins" the atmospheric and serene style of the original, but I think it's more than obvious that it's not trying to be either of those things; It's a faster, more energetic take on the track, more fitting for a racing game.

It's far from Jun's best work obviously, and I'd honestly much rather an original track rather than scrambling to shoehorn the original leitmotif into it halfway in, but I can understand what he's going for.

[Jango]

I think you're missing the point. When people see a track set on Planet Wisp, they expect a remix of at least one of the 3 Planet Wisp's variants. Granted, I can't see they just slightly remixing Act 1 or 2, because these are indeed too calm and serene (Act 2 especially) for a fast pacing race. But Act 3 is pretty sweet, it's more energetic and the beat is faster too. If they wanted to compose original music, heck, give us original levels too! :V Places based on the Sonic world, after all, this was exactly what Iizuka said, a racing game set in Sonic's world. 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Drifting Jack said:

Besides, not only it is out of character, it's just a wrong idea, Tails is supposed to be pure, and Team Sonic should be a group of heroes, not bullies like Wave, I'm not sure how this Tails could fit here.

By "pure" you mean...the nice one.

Not just "THE" nice one, the nice one of Team Sonic...but that's about it.

[JezMM]

3 hours ago, Depression Kong said:

People say that the new track "ruins" the atmospheric and serene style of the original, but I think it's more than obvious that it's not trying to be either of those things; It's a faster, more energetic take on the track, more fitting for a racing game.

It's far from Jun's best work obviously, and I'd honestly much rather an original track rather than scrambling to shoehorn the original leitmotif into it halfway in, but I can understand what he's going for.

I think it's more that it sounds so generic and lacking in personality.  Like if you heard it out of context it could sound like it comes from any kind of environment  What makes me worried is that right now, we've no way of knowing if the whole soundtrack is gonna sound that way.

Now that doesn't necessarily means it's gonna be bad, like, Shadow the Hedgehog had pretty forgettable music in-context but I enjoy listening to it out of context where I can concentrate on it and appreciate all the subtle things going on in each song.  Maybe this will be another OST like that but... I'd rather it wasn't.

It's just one of those things where if you re-use a location, the music for it will sound "off" if it doesn't match the established "feeling" of the stage.  It's why people like Chemical Flow from Sonic Forces but not Faded Hills - the former is a new composition but it somehow manages to capture the same feeling of the original stage.  Faded Hills just goes wild and doesn't feel like Green Hill as a result.  I actually feel the same about Death Prison - good song but it feels too warm in tone and goofy in melody to make me feel like I'm experiencing the same environment as Sonic & Knuckles' Death Egg Zone, which had a song that was fairly cool in tone and focused in melody.

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Drifting Jack said:

Besides, not only it is out of character, it's just a wrong idea, Tails is supposed to be pure, and Team Sonic should be a group of heroes, not bullies like Wave, I'm not sure how this Tails could fit here.

Sounds incredibly boring.

A bit of trash talk doesn't make someone a bully anyway.

[Jango]

Tails should always be adorkable with a pinch of sassy genius, after all, he's an 8 years old that can build planes and what-not. The way he's being portraited since Lost World is pretty terrible if you ask me, and these lines he spits in Team Racing just come off as out of character and try-hard, in a bad way. He was fine in Colors tho'. I'm not throwing shade at the modern branch, but the way every character is portraited in Sonic Mania Adventure is way, way, waaaaaay better. And it doesn't need a line of dialogue.

[StaticMania]

A pinch of sassy genius? Doesn't seem accurate to anything before Colors...