Why the Modern Sonic Stories Just Don't Work

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

46 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Then why are you even bringing them up? They have nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

Because like I said in my edit, that’s a fact of what the game does in the middle—in other words, the reason why the game arbitrarily restricts where you go as you wander around collecting the Gaia Keys you were talking about.

And once again, regardless of the medals even being the point here (and it’s not, so drop the strawman), that’s not the game’s events being “loosely connected,” as regardless of whether you go to finish Chun-nan first or Adabat, both of these events, regardless of which order you do them, happened in the story. Unlike the events of Shadow the Hedgehog where the only definite events that happened are the first level and the Last Story, everything else in between that being a prime example of something “loosely connected” given its “what if” narrative.

Having a stall or weak middle act isn’t a loose connection; events that you can barely even connect and make sense of, and might not even be the true direction of the story, are.

Really, I said that the first time around.

[SBR2]

11 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

This is a joke right?

Because if it’s not, it’s very easy to see how dishonest and false that claim is unless you’re referring to Heroes or ShTh. Especially if you’re talking about the Adventures and Unleashed, because you know full and well that no they are not loosely connected.

I Honestly find most of the Adventure Titles plots feel like they were just thrown together with no real endgame in mind. Things just sort of happen until you finish it. I will admit Tikal's backstory stuff is a little engaging but also there's no reason for a good chunk of the characters to see it. To say nothing about how Amy, Big and Gamma's trips contribute nothing to the overall plot.

SA2's plot is a mess and I'm surprised it's as loved as it is. But a child get's killed so it get's "Darkness points" I guess.

Unleashed as much as I do enjoy it really does spin it's wheels after the beginning of the game. It doesn't help we're given no real connection to any of the people we meet. Which is kind of hilarious considering that should be the secondary point of the game. Ironically I think unlike most Archie actually fixed this. I feel they managed to flesh out the world and give the various characters from the game more of a reason for us to care about them. The Backup Story where Rotor and Sally help Lucia plan her Mother's 50th Birthday really sticks out to me in that regard. In the Game I honestly can't even remember what Side Quest she gives but with the Comic version she feels more fleshed out. more like a real person and I find I can connect to her better.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I Honestly find most of the Adventure Titles plots feel like they were just thrown together with no real endgame in mind. 

They weren’t.

They have clear beginnings, middles, and ends and are told through different point of views that for some bizarre reason you’re claiming doesn’t exist. I’m mean, hell, not even those who hate Colors and onwards make up stuff like that when they criticize them. Heck, no one, not even the stauchest hater, even says that about the mess that is Sonic 06.

[Marco9966]

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

They weren’t.

They have clear beginnings, middles, and end. I’m mean, hell, not even those who hate Colors and onwards make up stuff like that when they criticize them.

I agree 200%.

Adventure titles were very engaging and I couldnt stop playing until I finish the story.

Colors was juse choosing which level I feel like playing and if I'm lucky there's a small funny cutscene.

[MadmanRB]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:50 PM, Miragnarok said:

What about Forces? While bad, it is bad in a different way from the other modern games. Same with Mania.

Wait Mania is a bad game to you?

Uhh what planet are you on?

If by storytelling agreed but classic sonic games plotlines were always paper thin.

 

[Multikaris]

3 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Wait Mania is a bad game to you?

Uhh what planet are you on?

If by storytelling agreed but classic sonic games plotlines were always paper thin.

 

Exactly. But Mania’s felt worse than the real classics due to a lack of explanation or sense of place. 

[MadmanRB]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Exactly. But Mania’s felt worse than the real classics due to a lack of explanation or sense of place. 

Yeah but there was the phantom ruby to explain it (though forces really mucked up whatever the heck it was supposed to do)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah but there was the phantom ruby to explain it (though forces really mucked up whatever the heck it was supposed to do)

Yeah, but sometimes you just jump into a level without a transition scene, like hiw you could go from Flying Battery to Press Garden (okay, not gonna lie here, but I forgot which level actually came after, so sorry if that’s incorrect) out of nowhere.

At least before Mania Plus fixes that.

Not a bad game tho (although fuck the drop dash. Instashield FTW)

[MadmanRB]

8 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

although fuck the drop dash. Instashield FTW

Well once you get used to the mechanic the dropdash is actually a good ability if you need the momentum but it takes a long time to master.

Its certainly a step up from the homing attack in Sonic 4 when dealing with 2D game mechanics.

The instashield is good as well but I did like the mania team did try something new that doesnt totally break the game but as i said as much as i like the dropdash it takes a long time to master.

 

But off topic, sorry.

[SaturnWolf]

Because there's zero consistency at all, in or out of universe.

We get new writers almost every game and they all either have their own ideas for what Sonic should be or just don't pay attention to past games. The inconsistency with the inhabitants of Sonic's world, the moon have been pointed out at nasuem and at this point, it's broken to the point where the only way to "fix" it is a total reboot, but even that's a bad idea because we've had so many of those and they like, never work.

[MadmanRB]

Thus is the biggest tragedy of Sonic forces, it had all the markings of a great story but it was so poorly executed.

heck i would argue on paper Sonic forces may have the best story in the sonic franchise.

But how it was executed really killed it, it has all the same issues that Sonic adventure 2 has in terms of storytelling but amplified.

At least adventure 2 had consistency.

 

There is a reason why i consider Sonic adventure 1 to have the best overall story of this franchise, while not perfect SA1 still has the best overall story and despite some early installment quirks (such as bad dialog) it is still quite strong and doesnt fall apart.

[Almar]

8 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

Because there's zero consistency at all, in or out of universe.

We get new writers almost every game and they all either have their own ideas for what Sonic should be or just don't pay attention to past games. The inconsistency with the inhabitants of Sonic's world, the moon have been pointed out at nasuem and at this point, it's broken to the point where the only way to "fix" it is a total reboot, but even that's a bad idea because we've had so many of those and they like, never work.

Not helping this is Iizuka himself, who has already said he won't return to to past games when it comes to Sonic's direction. More or less.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Thus is the biggest tragedy of Sonic forces, it had all the markings of a great story but it was so poorly executed.

heck i would argue on paper Sonic forces may have the best story in the sonic franchise.

Based on what, exactly? The only potentially interesting thing I see in Forces is exploring what would happen if Eggman won, but that alone is less "good on paper" and more "the page is blank, so maybe possibly someone could write something good there".

[TeamCinas]

Can't help but agree. Just what the Hell is Modern Sonic, even? You'd be under the impression that after playing the more story-oriented Adventure titles that the Sonic series from here on out would mostly be more story-focused. Note I'm merely talking about plot here. But no. With inconsistent writers who all want different things for Sonic and a seemingly undecided direction for the series, it has literally gone to the point where we're debating over specific GAMES in reference for what sort of story the games should follow. 

Early on, it seems like the series is this world of sorts with a cast of characters to be used, but then it turns into a weird ordeal of shoving new, unneeded characters into newer titles and then they're seemingly never seen again. Gemerl, Chip (kinda), Chocola, any of the storybook waifu bait? Nope. Shove them off in the back while new writer of the week forgets they even exist and they try to shove unnecessary comedy in while Iizuka orchestrates a Classic Sonic narrative from the sidelines. 

Those Sega mandates don't help, either, severly limiting how creative some stories can be. I've heard that quite a few people like the changes it bought, but I really don't. Forces is my favorite example of a grander story muffled to death by these. Oh no! Sonic's been kil- nah. He's okay! Sonic's in solitary confinement? Nah. He's as optimistic and snarky as he always is. Infinite's this new edgy guy on the streets who seems to loathe Sonic and friends. Why? Because Shadow kicked a few times. Wow. TRAUMATIC. MY HEART WEEPS FOR YOU. Now let's throw shitty references around, shove wisps down people's throats, and blare cringy lines to death so that you'll remember them in infamy for years.

I will admit that Forces does have a few funny lines, though. Keep the Japanese writers and kill off Pontac and Graff. 

Point is, what even is a Modern Sonic? Some cringefest most fans and journalists bash to death on a daily basis? Or is it a neat little universe with interesting plots, cool characters, and whatnot? Beats me.

[MadmanRB]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Based on what, exactly? The only potentially interesting thing I see in Forces is exploring what would happen if Eggman won, but that alone is less "good on paper" and more "the page is blank, so maybe possibly someone could write something good there".

I mean in terms of scope and impact, if Forces was done correctly it could have been the best Sonic story in the game franchise.

I mean it features the heroes at a disadvantage for a change, one of the issues facing "Eggman" is that you could never take him seriously.

Not since Sonic adventure 2 has he been this level of evil, he has become campy and just one step below a Adam West era Batman villain.

I actually like the idea of Sonic and pals being on the disadvantage after all i am a fan of the SatAM continuity.

Plus having a villain that can duplicate Sonics worst enemies on a whim? yeah that too could have been awesome.

Heck infinite himself is exhibit A of Forces squandered opportunity, he may have been something better than Shadow.

Forces has a very strong foundation, what ruined it is that while the foundation is strong the building was made of tissue paper for whatever reason

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

Plus having a villain that can duplicate Sonics worst enemies on a whim? yeah that too could have been awesome.

Heck infinite himself is exhibit A of Forces squandered opportunity, he may have been something better than Shadow.

The fake villains are just cheap fanservice, they aren't at all interesting as story elements and probably never could be as cheap clones divorced from their actual stories. And Infinite's no better, there's nothing even conceptually that elevates him beyond a generic "evil for evil's sake" villain. Shadow, for as much of a mess as his story is, at least offered a challenge to Sonic's identity rather than just being a strong guy to beat up.

[MadmanRB]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The fake villains are just cheap fanservice, they aren't at all interesting as story elements and probably never could be as cheap clones divorced from their actual stories. And Infinite's no better, there's nothing even conceptually that elevates him beyond a generic "evil for evil's sake" villain. Shadow, for as much of a mess as his story is, at least offered a challenge to Sonic's identity rather than just being a strong guy to beat up.

I actually blame this on execution though.

I actually like the concept of Infinite as a villain, again there is something that can be said about the ability to copy Sonics worst enemies.

If not done for fan service this could have been something more.

As for Infinite as a character sadly yes he got cursed with bad storytelling, I mean I do like his hinted backstory of being some sort of mercenary who was experimented on and with proper writing this could have been more.

Again could have been is the main phrase one must use for forces.

Under a good writer the forces story line could have been good.

Again this is a solid foundation, but the building is made of tissue paper

[Diogenes]

14 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

I actually like the concept of Infinite as a villain, again there is something that can be said about the ability to copy Sonics worst enemies.

What can be said about it? What does it actually add to the story aside from fan service and making Infinite into a stronger Evil McEvilguy? You keep saying it could've been something more but you're not giving any actual explanation.

[MadmanRB]

25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What can be said about it? What does it actually add to the story aside from fan service and making Infinite into a stronger Evil McEvilguy? You keep saying it could've been something more but you're not giving any actual explanation.

Well the way i see it this kind of ability could have been great as a tool to fight against Sonic.

I mean lock him in a room with no escape and blam! have a duplicate of perfect chaos in there!

Fanservice? Yes

Better executed? oh yeah

I could imagine a similar scene to the one in Empire strikes back where Luke is in the cave, he is looking around wondering in the cave and BAM! There is Darth Vader!

If something like that was done for forces it would have been awesome, using the illusions to make Sonic question what is real and what is not.

I mean what if it was used for a psychological attack, one moment he is fighting Shadow and the next moment he is fighting an army of perfect chaos.

Now this is how this fan service type move could have been used in a good way.

Heck go farther and have duplicates of Sonic's friends who fight against him making Sonic question who is friend or foe.

 

This is how I would have done it.

[DabigRG]

Honestly, I kinda have to wonder if both escalation and the series almost continual progression into darker territory might be an important background issue.

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well the way i see it this kind of ability could have been great as a tool to fight against Sonic.

I mean lock him in a room with no escape and blam! have a duplicate of perfect chaos in there!

Fanservice? Yes

Better executed? oh yeah

Not really, that's just the villain waving his metaphorical big dick. It's basically the same as dropping the sun in the actual game, just a thematically meaningless show of power.

9 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

I could imagine a similar scene to the one in Empire strikes back where Luke is in the cave, he is looking around wondering in the cave and BAM! There is Darth Vader!

If something like that was done for forces it would have been awesome, using the illusions to make Sonic question what is real and what is not.

I mean what if it was used for a psychological attack, one moment he is fighting Shadow and the next moment he is fighting an army of perfect chaos.

That's not a "psychological attack", it's just more power flexing.

9 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Heck go farther and have duplicates of Sonic's friends who fight against him making Sonic question who is friend or foe.

Now that's something that could actually be used as a psychological attack, breaking down his trust in his friends to isolate him. But that's clearly not Infinite's style, and I'm not sure how it could fit in with the rest of what Forces was trying to do.

[MadmanRB]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Not really, that's just the villain waving his metaphorical big dick. It's basically the same as dropping the sun in the actual game, just a thematically meaningless show of power.

That's not a "psychological attack", it's just more power flexing.

Now that's something that could actually be used as a psychological attack, breaking down his trust in his friends to isolate him. But that's clearly not Infinite's style, and I'm not sure how it could fit in with the rest of what Forces was trying to do.

Well i was mainly trying to set examples of what i think could have been done, after all you asked me what i meant by what i said.

I could go farther but i did want to express how Infinites ability's could have been used to make him better in terms of how he was in the game given its context.

All of those elements in the right hands could have been great or at the very least better than just random fan service.

Outside of the games context you are correct, Infinite abilities would have been better if he used images of Sonics friends against him, would have made for some very interesting boss battles too in game.

Quote

Honestly, I kinda have to wonder if both escalation and the series almost continual progression into darker territory might be an important background issue.

For me there is nothing wrong with dark stories, its how they are executed.

No sonic should go full grim dark, even SatAM had humor in it.

This is why Shadow the hedgehog (the game) failed so badly, it went too far tasking itself too seriously.

Dark with humor can be done right, Avatar the last Airbender and batman the animated series did it and one can do the same for sonic

[Nestor]

To be fair, Infinite creating duplicates of a handful of Sonic's greatest foes did at least avoid the pitfall that I actually thought Forces would hit, namely finding a way for Sonic to be defeated quickly and for Eggman to take over without turning Infinite into a complete Mary Sue.

Him showing up out of nowhere and personally defeating Sonic one to one in under a minute would have seemed unnecessarily fanfictiony, but Sonic having to face simultaneously and unexpectedly all of his most powerful foes and Infinite, with most of the legwork being done by the illusions, makes Sonic's defeat more believable.

I agree though that so much more should have been made of the duplicate angle, particularly Shadow's and his seeming face-heel turn from Sonic's perspective.

Also, I must admit, while it could have been executed significantly more competently, I thought Infinite's backstory was actually not a bad concept - having a villain who's evil not because of a tragic backstory but just because he's an egotistical douche was a nice change. His whole 'look how awesome and terrifying I am' edginess schtick synergises nicely with his backstory of being such a narcissist that him and his squad being barely a speed-bump for Shadow sends him into a meltdown - the sadistic bully so full of himself yet unable to see how pathetically insecure and fragile his ego is. The fact that his primary power is the creation of illusions gives an ironic echo to this aspect of his character nicely as well.

[MadmanRB]

On 6/28/2018 at 3:25 AM, Nestor said:

Also, I must admit, while it could have been executed significantly more competently, I thought Infinite's backstory was actually not a bad concept - having a villain who's evil not because of a tragic backstory but just because he's an egotistical douche was a nice change. His whole 'look how awesome and terrifying I am' edginess schtick synergises nicely with his backstory of being such a narcissist that him and his squad being barely a speed-bump for Shadow sends him into a meltdown - the sadistic bully so full of himself yet unable to see how pathetically insecure and fragile his ego is. The fact that his primary power is the creation of illusions gives an ironic echo to this aspect of his character nicely as well.

Indeed Infinates backstory is actually not too bad.

And i rather like the "from nobody to nightmare" type villains such as Kefka from Final Fantasy VI or heck even Darth Vader.

I mean a villain doesnt have to be super complex or with a heavy backstory to be awesome.

[A person, that exists]

OH BOY, HERE WE GO AGAIN

Like, we get it. Sonic's attempts at comedy are utter garbage, and the Adventure games had close to perfect plots because nostalgia. 

But, really, was Sonic's storytelling ever good? Like, the games always had a lot of pointless shit (Time stones, Iblis, any and all artifacts introduced in the Storybook series), annoying and downright useless characters, who clearly were made to sell merchandise (Amy Rose, Knuckles The Echidna, the Chaotix, Shadow, Rouge and so on), cringy dialogue that would make 4Kids look like Shakespeare, and so on.

And the side media, like the Archie comics or the cartoons weren't any better. Archie had a lot of pointless recolors, that made it feel like a fanfic of sorts, Mary-Sues like Sally or Juli-Su, politics (IN A GODDAMN CHILDREN'S COMIC, WHY?!), and so on.

But, really, it's not because of the writers. I'm sure that Pontac, Flynn, heck, even the writers for the Adventure games tried to write something grand, or at least presentable. 

It's because Sonic has no good story potential. It's literally just "Hedgehog breaks robot, hedgehog fights evil fat guy". It's a dumb story about talking animals and pollution, and therefore, no interesting plots can be made out of this scenario.

And, really, why bother? Nobody cares about story in platformers nowadays, so, really, why even add one?