Seriously, why are Pontaff still writing for Sonic?

[Strickerx5]

7 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm still not very fond of their writing for the series, but at this point I've just learned to make peace with it and take what I get. Which leads me to my point; I understand the writing for the series has become a contentious subject overall, but I am really not comfortable with the hate they get when their only crime is *gasp* having a less than a stellar script for a video game series.  From how the fanbase treats them though, you'd think they have committed some type of murder against some of these guy's family members or something. And it's reactions like that that only reinforce the already negative image this fanbase has.

As for the OP's question? They're still writing because Sega thinks they're good enough and that's all there is to it. No don't care how much we bitch and moan about it, because all of the bitching and moaning is a vocal minority at best. The actual reality is more than likely that people outside of the most diehard of fans do not give a shit about the story or lore of Sonic the Hedgehog, and that's the straight truth. They don't give a shit the same way they don't give a shit about Mario's lore. Its just a video game series to occasionally pick up and have fun with and not some type of epic that the fanbase tries to make it seem like it is. 

It's why I can't be bothered to argue in favor of this series` lore anymore, not only am I tired of parroting the same arguments I've been saying for years, I've honestly grown so apathetic and mostly satisfied when the game is functional and characters aren't completely stupid. So yea, that's my take. 

What hate? You mean criticism? If anything, I'd say this entire topic has been rather tame when compared to the usual mess topics regarding people like Iizuka or ST as a whole get.

I can't speak for others but personally, I'm just flat out sick of their work. I don't hate them personally (I hope no one ever thought that to be the case), but I just don't see their output worth keeping and would much rather a change-up occur in that department. I'm sure they could do great work on other properties but for the last 9 years, I just can't say that's been the case with Sonic.

 

Also, I've been seeing the idea of "It's a Sonic game. People don't care about the story so why does it matter" pop up a bit and let me just be frank here, that's a ridiculously poor argument. The idea that a significant section of a game should just fall into a gutter because a section of people don't care about it has always irked the ever living hell out of me. A fair amount of people in the industry don't care about Sonic as a whole. Should the entire series just shrivel up and die because of that? No. Hell, that's a good part of the reason why we've gotten these Sonic only games for the last decade (among other issues).

When I buy a Sonic game, no, any game, I'd like the full package to be of quality. I don't want a chronicles tier soundtrack, bare-bones gameplay, microsoft paint graphics, ect. Like, if we just wanted to accept everything as just how things are I don't think we'd be on this board to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying here is that I don't think it's wrong to want effort put into things. Like, basic effort all around at the very least.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

What hate? You mean criticism? If anything, I'd say this entire topic has been rather tame when compared to the usual mess topics regarding people like Iizuka or ST as a whole get.

 

I was speaking in general how people have reacted to their writing in the eight years they've been around.

[Plasme]

Stating what a large number of people think isn't really constructive other than basic research. A large number of people thought the Sonic brand should have been quietly killed off up to a few years before Mania was announced, and I'd hazard to guess you wouldn't have wanted that.

Saying 'well no one really cares' and leaving it at that when someone brings up discussion about the story isn't an argument and is a waste of everyone's time. 

[Mountaindewandsprite]

6 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

I don't understand. Pontac and Graff know nothing about the franchise lore 

Sonic had a lore?

[StaticMania]

47 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Sonic had a lore?

Define "Lore" and then ask this question again, but for realz.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Sonic had a lore?

 

13 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Define "Lore" and then ask this question again, but for realz.

The Echidna Tribe, Chaos, Chao,  Light/Dark Gaia, Black Doom and his race, the A.R.K, Shadow's backstory, the government/G.U.N etc. It might not all have been good lore, but it was lore that none the less connected even with a few issues.

[PC the Hedgehog]

Frankly, I thought their writing in Forces was by far the best work they've ever done for the series. The dialogue had their usual wit without resorting to the cringeworthy overdone jokes their other works are filled with (except for goofy stuff like "true dat", but I can handle a goofy line here and there). If they keep putting out Forces-level material, I'm perfectly fine with them staying on.

[The Deleter]

It is an argument. It's an argument that this is a somewhat acceptable standard that they can be striving for, because it's not far from the standard they've always had, in a different way.

I don't think that they (Pontac and Graff) need to be free from criticism, but at the same time I think hardcore Sonic fans are way to comfortable with the idea that their preconceptions of the series, and overall behavior, is exempt from criticism. The constant backpatting session of "It's best for the series!" is fine in moderation, but when it becomes detached from reality and a matter of entitlement from the fanbase, it has the potential to become something akin to the Sonic Adventure 3 fandom, not to say anything of other fanbases.

The discussion in this thread isn't that bad compared to what has come before it, but still mostly rooted in the idea that "Pontac and Graff need to be let go", a sentiment that's been far too overbearing in the last decade in the most vocal parts of the fanbase, and one that comes alongside the notion that the previous games had a story worth getting up in arms over in the first place.

When someone brings up the fact that usual Sonic stories aren't much better in the first place, and Sonic Team, casual fans, and the general public in general don't care about it, that's not exactly a "why discuss it" sort of argument. It's an argument that the entire sentiment may be getting out of hand.

[Dee Dude]

Honestly at this point, I think my hatred for them has mellowed down a bit, not as people obviously (you’d be insane over a video game) but as writers, I still want them gone but it’s mostly the issue with SEGA’s poor story lore inconsistency and character flanderization, so we shouldn’t blame them for every story related problem in the series.

SEGA/ST chose to forget about Tails’ SA1 development, they chose to backside the majority of the cast, and they chose to change the overall lore and create a clusterfuck continuity separating the main Sonic universe,  human universe, the classic universe or the fuck whatever-verse they decide to do.

 (Though Pontaff certainly didn’t help for Lost World since they did write that game.)

I actually did like their refreshing goofiness in Colors since it was full intentional to take a light hearted approach and I fully welcomed despite fully preferring the action-y anime vibe of the Adventure Era even though those weren’t perfect in the slightest.

Generations? What story? In seriousness, everything about it was bland and lackluster, which again was ST’s overall plot.

Lost World was a definite mess for sure, since Pontaff had full freedom on the tone, it almost felt like they were attempting to add a balance between comedy and serious but failed miserably.

It all crashed between college bro sitcom shit between Sonic & Tails picking on Eggman (GOOD ONE MAN, ALL RULING IN THE COURT) and forced edgy dialogue and drama. (YOU DONT TRUST ME, ILL DESTROY YOUR WORLDS AND EAT YOUR BLACK HEARTS), pretty much how not to make a balanced story which is why they can’t really write a decent plot meaning it’s up to the previous writers to do Forces’ plot.

And damn freaking Forces almost had it! Japanese story, English localization, it actually seemed we could trust Pontaff on this for the first time....until we got the infamous torture line and true dat (which never bothered me tbh), the plot itself felt so damn unfinished it almost pisses me off, and I liked Forces.

I won’t even get into the Boom games.

In other words, it’s easy to make them targets to rag on but their only real crimes were the bad dialogue and LW’s plots, everything else is on SEGA.

[Strickerx5]

12 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

It is an argument. It's an argument that this is a somewhat acceptable standard that they can be striving for, because it's not far from the standard they've always had, in a different way.

I don't think that they (Pontac and Graff) need to be free from criticism, but at the same time I think hardcore Sonic fans are way to comfortable with the idea that their preconceptions of the series, and overall behavior, is exempt from criticism. The constant backpatting session of "It's best for the series!" is fine in moderation, but when it becomes detached from reality and a matter of entitlement from the fanbase, it has the potential to become something akin to the Sonic Adventure 3 fandom, not to say anything of other fanbases.

The discussion in this thread isn't that bad compared to what has come before it, but still is undeniably rooted in the idea that "Pontac and Graff need to be let go", a sentiment that's been far too overbearing in the last decade in the most vocal parts of the fanbase, and one rooted in the notion that the previous games had a story worth getting up in arms over in the first place.

When someone brings up the fact that usual Sonic stories aren't much better in the first place, and Sonic Team, casual fans, and the general public in general don't care about it, that's not exactly a "why discuss it" sort of argument. It's an argument that the entire sentiment may be getting out of hand.

Eh, gotta disagree there man. Stories like Unleashed and BK may not be perfect but I'd still say that they're far better and worthy of repeating over Gens, Colors, or Forces. Also, I wouldn't label ST in whole as a factor of people who don't care. The way they advertise their games (especially with how Nakamura was promoting Forces), it's obvious that a fair few people within the team care.

As for the general public, gonna be honest here, that's a very slippery slope you're going down there. Literally any topic brought up here can be met with that line of thinking. "Classic physics need to come back" to "No one even noticed Classic in Gens was even off so why bother" or "Sega should continue to invest in this franchise" to "Sonic is the literal laughing stock of the industry. No one cares, just kill it all. Mario is better anyway."

Again, I don't see the issue in people voicing their desire for writers more suited for the job. It's no different than people requesting for better coders in ST. I fail to see how one is overbearing and the other isn't. These idea are not free from debate. It's why boards like these are even here. Imo, nothing on here even comes close to the SA3 facebook group and is far from getting out of hand. Trust me, I've seen it happen quite a number of times (especially last year) but what's happening here... there's no real "entitlement" to be had.

[GentlemanX]

I think they're tamest localization has been Forces which, with some infamous exceptions aside, is mostly accurate to the Japanese script per Windii's awesome subs. Colors' script is a lot more liberal in the jokes, but there's just honestly not much to that game's plot beyond jokes - some of which such as Cubot's dialects needed to be changed for the international market to get the same effect.

Allegedly, Pontac and Graff had more creative control on the actual plot of Sonic Lost World, which I could definitely see given how out of character certain scenes are. While I don't like how the two write Sonic and Tails in that game, I do like how they get into the heads of the Zeti and think those sections where we see Zavok bounce off each of them are the highlights of the story. Now, how much influence they had over the Zeti's personalities is uncertain and how successful each character was in being likable on their own is questionable at best, but you can tell they can do good work if they feel like it.

If Lost World is an indicator of how they would do if they had more control over the plot, I'd say keep them off that. I enjoy what plots Sonic Team members come up with much more, Forces included. As for keeping them on script localization - eh, I can take it or leave it. I don't enjoy the brand of humor they seem to think is funny and overall I think they don't understand the characters in the same way I do, but it's not the end of the world or anything. I do think you'd have better dialogue if Ian or even Aaron was adapting the script rather than them though. I think both are funnier and know the characters better than Pontac and Graff do. As for a change in how the stories themselves are written, I'm in the camp that prefers things more serious than what we got in say Colors, but not as serious as 06. I wouldn't mind Toyoda giving another crack at the story, though if Shiro Maekawa or Hiroshi Miyamoto were available and willing I think I'd prefer one of them. I like their work on the Sonic series so it's hard for me to say I'd actively prefer a new direction from an outside writer. Could be good, could be not. I firmly believe Sonic Team wants to tell stories that I'll enjoy judging by Forces, so I'm not the audience asking for something like that.

[SaturnWolf]

I used to hate them a lot more, but as I've grown older and wiser I've mellowed out on a lot of things, them included.

Do I think their writing is good? No, not particularly. Do I want them to stick around forever? No, not particularly. Do I think they're the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise? Well, no. The important thing to note is that they're more localizers than just writing out the stories; as was the case with Sonic Heroes and Maekawa, the plot was basically already written before they even walked in the door and they were just told to fill in the blanks.

Sonic Heroes' plot and dialogue was laughably cheesy, more so than most things in the games that Pontac and Graff have been involved with. It's not even like they haven't done any good, either. Sonic Lost World had a few moments I really liked, like Sonic finally seeing situations that can't be solved by just jumping in head-first, or Sonic thinking all his friends were dead. It wasn't perfect, but the potential to grow is definitely there, and I don't expect any writer ever to be perfect. 

The root of the problem goes deeper than just "Writers that don't know what the hell they're doing", the problem is someone at Sega and or Sonic Team giving the orders to whoever it is that's in charge of the story for the given project. That's not me trying to handwave their faults away, because trust me, I realize they're there, but for as much as I love and support the #Flynn4Sonic and #Maekawa4Sonic campaigns, ask yourself this: would they REALLY have the creative freedom you'd like for them to have? Would they REALLY be able to stretch their wings as far as we'd like?

They wouldn't. Getting rid of Pontac and Graff is a temporary "solution" to a problem that goes way deeper than them.

[SBR2]

13 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Sonic had a lore?

Apparently.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Sonic Mania adventures was nice. Sense of humor, but with energy, still has some stakes and build- up to a climax, characters still in-character.
And not the cast just standing around in an empty room pounding the audience in the face with how self aware they are.
We don't need to rely on Pontaff to be our one key to light hearted stories.

I've lightened up over Pontaff tough. The've gotten a bit better.
And Nobody from the localization team could have saved Sonic Forces .
Tails would have cowered from Chaos Zero no matter who wrote what, nothing you can do to fix that.
Outside of being farcical and forcing in a subplot that it's Tails' evil twin we've been witnissing in Forces, their hands are tied.


Myeah, I don't think there's much of a point in fighting to get a diffrent localizer or writer for Sonic, the problem is clearly deep within Sega and Sonic Team.
Whether the series is exclusively fueled by a crippling fear of failures from the past, or this is an attempt to make Sonic more suitable for the kids and we're too old to appreciate what they're doing, or just a complete lack of passion from the staff... It's clear the problem is way deeper then one team of writers.
 

That said, I would like it if Ian Flynn became the main localizer. At least the characters will be in-character again, and with Flynn I got the feeling there's some sort of heart and brain at the center of it. Even if he's not the active plot writer, he does tend to put effort in keeping track of the details and make sure if feels it's still the same characters in the same world. I don't think Pontaff particularly cares, they have a tendecy to write in a vacuum, writing down whatever is funny or cool for that individual moment. How it fits with what came before or after be damned.

Aaand....At this point I wonder what "In-character" even means at this point, the cast has been derailed for over a decade.
There's no doubt new generations of fans only familair with this variation of Sonic and will protest when that gets changed.
Maybe at this point the Pontaff interpretation is the proper in-character and their 90's/2000's personality is retconned out of existance.
The Adventure personalities are probably just boring to modern audiences now, who just want the cast to be constant self aware punchline factories.
 

[Sonic Fan J]

That's really my problem with the way that Pontaff writes, is that I've never seen Sonic as a comedy first so their constant need to tell jokes and present the characters like stand-up comedians rubs me the wrong way. I'd sooner honestly have had Forces presented as a pantomime performance than have to deal with some of the bad jokes they presented. On a whole I'd gladly take pantomime presentation again and simple level progression that I can follow with my eyes. It's part of the charm to me with Mania Adventures is the simple expressiveness of the characters without corny dialogue ruining the scenes for me. Don't get me wrong though, I enjoy a good narrative as much anyone, but Pontaff's narratives are too full of jokes which don't amuse me at all. I understand trying to make the characters fun, but there has to me more ways to do that then just telling irritating jokes. Heck, just show me the characters having fun without disregarding the seriousness of certain situations and you'll already have me more engaged and enjoying myself than trying to get me to laugh at a joke that's as enjoyable as having a rock thrown at you.

My problems with Pontaff aside though and addressing the topic, on a whole since Iizuka was officially put in charge of the franchise and Sonic Team things have steadily been taken in a comedy series route. Why you would transform an action adventure series into a comedy is beyond me however, but if you have to mix the two then inspiration should be drawn from other series that have handled it well. I personally can't provide any examples as I don't know any series that have transitioned from action adventure to comedy successfully, and perhaps that speaks of the inherent problem. But is that really the fault of Pontaff? Well, Iizuka has taken the series in a comedy route and Pontaff are comedy writers who have had some success. They are also probably affordable to work with which is just icing on the cake at this point. Above all else though, the general reception I see around Sonic games is that no one cares for the stories but since stories are a natural part of most games these days the minimum effort needs to be applied to meet that check box. Pontaff meets that demand so really one could ask why get rid of them considering typically presented reception of Sonic stories? To me though, if story really doesn't matter then just give me back pantomime stories with visible progression and let the characters sell themselves with their actions and body language. At least then I know I'll be entertained without being exposed to cringe worthy dialogue and badly delivered jokes which aren't funny. Then it just falls on the programmers and level designers to deliver engaging gameplay that I want to engage with again and again.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Sonic Mania adventures was nice. Sense of humor, but with energy, still has some stakes and build- up to a climax, characters still in-character.
And not the cast just standing around in an empty room pounding the audience in the face with how self aware they are.
We don't need to rely on Pontaff to be our one key to light hearted stories.

I've lightened up over Pontaff tough. The've gotten a bit better.
And Nobody from the localization team could have saved Sonic Forces .
Tails would have cowered from Chaos Zero no matter who wrote what, nothing you can do to fix that.
Outside of being farcical and forcing in a subplot that it's Tails' evil twin we've been witnissing in Forces, their hands are tied.


Myeah, I don't think there's much of a point in fighting to get a diffrent localizer or writer for Sonic, the problem is clearly deep within Sega and Sonic Team.
Whether the series is exclusively fueled by a crippling fear of failures from the past, or this is an attempt to make Sonic more suitable for the kids and we're too old to appreciate what they're doing, or just a complete lack of passion from the staff... It's clear the problem is way deeper then one team of writers.
 

That said, I would like it if Ian Flynn became the main localizer. At least the characters will be in-character again, and with Flynn I got the feeling there's some sort of heart and brain at the center of it. Even if he's not the active plot writer, he does tend to put effort in keeping track of the details and make sure if feels it's still the same characters in the same world. I don't think Pontaff particularly cares, they have a tendecy to write in a vacuum, writing down whatever is funny or cool for that individual moment. How it fits with what came before or after be damned.

Aaand....At this point I wonder what "In-character" even means at this point, the cast has been derailed for over a decade.
There's no doubt new generations of fans only familair with this variation of Sonic and will protest when that gets changed.
Maybe at this point the Pontaff interpretation is the proper in-character and their 90's/2000's personality is retconned out of existance.
The Adventure personalities are probably just boring to modern audiences now, who just want the cast to be constant self aware punchline factories.
 

I would like to see people’s reaction to the pre-pontaff personalities returning. 

[Sonic Fan J]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I would like to see people’s reaction to the pre-pontaff personalities returning. 

Which personalities though? Sonic himself was starting to become a philosophical globetrotter who helped those in need that he came across with an attitude and general level of cockiness that was far more mellow than at any other point in the series. While I enjoyed that myself since seeing Sonic being insightful, cocky, adventurous, helpful, caring, serious when needed, and possessing a love of running and adventure above all else really met how I saw and still see his character, that mellowness which was kind of spreading throughout everything I recall rubbed a number of people the wrong way.

[Multikaris]

22 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Which personalities though? Sonic himself was starting to become a philosophical globetrotter who helped those in need that he came across with an attitude and general level of cockiness that was far more mellow than at any other point in the series. While I enjoyed that myself since seeing Sonic being insightful, cocky, adventurous, helpful, caring, serious when needed, and possessing a love of running and adventure above all else really met how I saw and still see his character, that mellowness which was kind of spreading throughout everything I recall rubbed a number of people the wrong way.

Yes, that one. 

[Marco9966]

Thankfully this personality is in the IDW comics.

[Sonic Fan J]

5 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Yes, that one. 

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I would be elated to see the return of that personality since it lends itself so well to adventure stories and not just those that rely on just stop Eggman to work. That said though, I have no doubt whatsoever that Pontaff would not be able to localize that in any manner of satisfying. Their comedian background and approach would completely undermine the more thoughtful and insightful approach that characterization needs outside of clashing with Eggman. It's not that they aren't necessarily capable of writing that characterization based on some arguments that I've seen for Lost World, but considering how quickly they bounce back to jokes and stand up comedy in that game I can't believe they could control themselves enough to limit comedy to an appropriate level for the style of storytelling that would go with that characterization.

2 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Thankfully this personality is in the IDW comics.

Ian Flynn is pretty close, no doubt there, though I would argue that his Sonic is not quite as mellow as in Unleashed and Black Knight. That probably lends itself though to the popularity of Flynn's Sonic as I could see it being perceived as just the right balance between Unleashed and Adventure. I personally find Flynn's Sonic to sometimes come across as a little too smarmy instead of cheeky, and those moments without Sonic's playful charm can make Sonic a little grating. In comparison to getting a straight-up stand-up comedian who has to laugh at his own jokes since no one else will though it really is the ideal interpretation of Sonic.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Problem with Sonic is that for his personality, it's very important with whom and in what context he's interacting.

It's not that i have a problem with Sonic being snarky ,cocky and mocking his opponent.
It just needs the right context. An enemy who deserves it, in a situation where him being cocky and self assured is earned/ brave/ exciting.
It needs that contrast, a small little rodent up agaisnt insurmountable odds, doing it with a cocky smile. The thrill of overcoming danger.
But if there's no danger, or intensity, when Sonic himself is on top of the foodchain, a godlike being against a bunch of sad clowns as opponents, then him being cocky is him just kicking down puppies.

Him mocking Infinite in Forces,that I was fine with, that's proper Sonic laughing off danger and taunting his opponent.
In Sonic and the Black knight, Sonic being sassy to his friends was fine since his friends snap right back when he crosses the line and Sonic knows when to shut up and buckle down and let danger breathe and be.

But watching him randomly assault the Deadly six minding their own bussines is annoying.
And Eggman spends so much time beating himself into the ground or being an ineffectual clown that insulting him further feels like overkill.
When Sonic daydreams trough supposedly intense set pieces and keeps reminding us how boring everything is, then surprise, I'm bored too.

So yeah, when it comes to Sonic, I'm technically fine with how he's written, but he's very dependend on the characters and situations around him.
And that's where, say, Eggman and Knuckles being dumbed down and Sonic never being in any kind of danger start to do disservice to his personality.
If Pontaff could be bothered to let a few scenes go by without dismanteling everything with constant punchlines and actually put him in real danger, then his jokey personality would feel more genuine and thrilling.
Now it feels forced. Endless punchlines, but without anything for the lines to punch.
 

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Endless punchlines, but without anything for the lines to punch.
 

Wouldn't the lines be punching the brick walls that represent the dumb-downed characters?

[Sonic Fan J]

4 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Problem with Sonic is that for his personality, it's very important with whom and in what context he's interacting.

It's not that i have a problem with Sonic being snarky ,cocky and mocking his opponent.
It just needs the right context. An enemy who deserves it, in a situation where him being cocky and self assured is earned/ brave/ exciting.
It needs that contrast, a small little rodent up agaisnt insurmountable odds, doing it with a cocky smile. The thrill of overcoming danger.
But if there's no danger, or intensity, when Sonic himself is on top of the foodchain, a godlike being against a bunch of sad clowns as opponents, then him being cocky is him just kicking down puppies.

Him mocking Infinite in Forces,that I was fine with, that's proper Sonic laughing off danger and taunting his opponent.
In Sonic and the Black knight, Sonic being sassy to his friends was fine since his friends snap right back when he crosses the line and Sonic knows when to shut up and buckle down and let danger breathe and be.

But watching him randomly assault the Deadly six minding their own bussines is annoying.
And Eggman spends so much time beating himself into the ground or being an ineffectual clown that insulting him further feels like overkill.
When Sonic daydreams trough supposedly intense set pieces and keeps reminding us how boring everything is, then surprise, I'm bored too.

So yeah, when it comes to Sonic, I'm technically fine with how he's written, but he's very dependend on the characters and situations around him.
And that's where, say, Eggman and Knuckles being dumbed down and Sonic never being in any kind of danger start to do disservice to his personality.
If Pontaff could be bothered to let a few scenes go by without dismanteling everything with constant punchlines and actually put him in real danger, then his jokey personality would feel more genuine and thrilling.
Now it feels forced. Endless punchlines, but without anything for the lines to punch.
 

I can agree with a good deal of this viewpoint. To an extent it reminds of an argument I had once where I accused Sonic of coming across as a bully with the way he was being presented in an attempt to explain why Eggman had to be a perceivable threat. Picking on those who can't defend themselves is something Sonic should never do under any circumstances, yet Pontaff puts Sonic in that position more often than not. It honestly makes the whole Mr. Tinker conflict in the IDW comics that much more enjoyable in retrospect.

[Bowbowis]

15 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Problem with Sonic is that for his personality, it's very important with whom and in what context he's interacting.

Not understanding how characters should react in a given situation, or which characters to use to achieve a given result, is sort of a running theme with Pontaff's work. Take Lost World for instance, even if Tails' stated grievances made sense given what had happened up to that point, which they don't, him acting passive aggressive and blowing up at Sonic (His idol, remember?) is way out of character. Tails has always been characterized as rather meek and non-confrontational, the type to go sulk in the corner when he feels slighted, not the type to get up in someone's face over it. Not to say he can't get angry, but it would take something big, like his best friend seemingly being blown up right in front of him. The only thing in Lost World which comes close to that, the world being drained, doesn't happen until long after Tails starts acting like a pissy brat (it also elicits amazingly mild reactions from all concerned parties, but that's another issue).

Here are two ways the basic premise could have been done better, depending on which aspect of the plot they considered more important:

If conflict between Sonic and Tails is more important: Have Tails become depressed over Sonic's apparent lack of trust in him and starts doubting his own abilities. Maybe have Eggman deliberately playing mind games, hoping to make Tails think there's no way he could anything about the machine when Eggman turns and to drive a wedge between the heroes in the long term. In the end  Sonic relies on Tails to reverse the machine, weakening the final boss, saying he always suspected Tails would be the one to stop the machine, and just wanted Eggman to guide them to it, and to keep an eye on him so he couldn't get up to anything in the meantime. Sonic apologizes for not paying more attention to how Tails was feeling during the whole ordeal, as he had assumed they were on the same wavelength.

If having Sonic and one of his allies seriously butting heads is more important: Have Knuckles be the one to accompany Sonic to the Hex instead of Tails, when it comes time for Eggman to join up the two get into a heated argument over it. Sonic, feeling guilty over kicking the conch away, thinks they should work with Eggman, believing that Eggman wouldn't risk the survival of the world by betraying them, and citing the times he's assisted the heroes when the world has been in peril. Knuckles, not wanting to be played for a fool, is suspicious, feeling that the situation is not yet desperate enough for Eggman to be trusted, and citing all the times trusting Eggman has come back to bite him in the past. In the end Eggman turns on them, but not before doing his part in shutting down the machine, leaving Sonic and Knuckles to both concede that the other had a point.

Now, I don't know exactly how much control Pontac and Graff had over Lost World, but Pontac has stated that they had quite a bit of input on the story. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're worst effort (Shattered Crystal)  is the one they had complete creative control on, while their best (Forces) is the one where they left the Japanese script mostly intact.

[Kuzu]

9 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Problem with Sonic is that for his personality, it's very important with whom and in what context he's interacting.

It's not that i have a problem with Sonic being snarky ,cocky and mocking his opponent.
It just needs the right context. An enemy who deserves it, in a situation where him being cocky and self assured is earned/ brave/ exciting.
It needs that contrast, a small little rodent up agaisnt insurmountable odds, doing it with a cocky smile. The thrill of overcoming danger.
But if there's no danger, or intensity, when Sonic himself is on top of the foodchain, a godlike being against a bunch of sad clowns as opponents, then him being cocky is him just kicking down puppies.

Him mocking Infinite in Forces,that I was fine with, that's proper Sonic laughing off danger and taunting his opponent.
In Sonic and the Black knight, Sonic being sassy to his friends was fine since his friends snap right back when he crosses the line and Sonic knows when to shut up and buckle down and let danger breathe and be.

But watching him randomly assault the Deadly six minding their own bussines is annoying.
And Eggman spends so much time beating himself into the ground or being an ineffectual clown that insulting him further feels like overkill.
When Sonic daydreams trough supposedly intense set pieces and keeps reminding us how boring everything is, then surprise, I'm bored too.

So yeah, when it comes to Sonic, I'm technically fine with how he's written, but he's very dependend on the characters and situations around him.
And that's where, say, Eggman and Knuckles being dumbed down and Sonic never being in any kind of danger start to do disservice to his personality.
If Pontaff could be bothered to let a few scenes go by without dismanteling everything with constant punchlines and actually put him in real danger, then his jokey personality would feel more genuine and thrilling.
Now it feels forced. Endless punchlines, but without anything for the lines to punch.
 

I actually agree with this to some extent, and it helped me understand some grievances people tend to have with the characterization over the media across the years. Know how each character should react to a given situation and if it's appropriate makes sense and I feel like it's the biggest flaw in Pontac and Graff's games. Because I feel like the conflicts and character reactions there are done more in a vacuum or done for the sake of what would be "funny" instead of what's actually appropriate. 

So you get stuff like Sonic mouthing off to things he doesn't really need to (Remember "the clobbering :V"), simply because it's "funny" and that's what is being prioritized above anything else.

 

Ironically enough, Forces just has the opposite problem of characters barely reacting to things that are going on. So yea, the problem goes far beyond Pontac or Graff, but they're certainly a symptom to it.  

On 7/2/2018 at 4:03 PM, Miragnarok said:

Kuzu, even if they mostly ignore the past lore, it would still be nice to see little nods to the lore (other than the classics because they’ve been done to death and then decomposition at this point) in the script. Like someone wonders why certain characters didn’t participate in Forces, whatever happened to the little planet, etc.  Stuff non-fans would just write off as a noodle incident rather than get confused over. Maybe the level designers could also hide stuff in the levels as references too. 

 

At the very least, a “Hyrule Historia” type book could be done.

Yea, that would be nice. But that shouldn't be a priority when structuring basic plot threads. 

 

I'd much rather have a cohesive and somewhat sensible plot than just a bunch of references that only a handful of people are going to understand.