Do you aggree with the Two-worlds??

[Razule]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Earth IS the human world.

I don't think they can even say Earth anymore. 

[DabigRG]

10 hours ago, Almar said:

Yet has Echidna ruins (Wild Canyon).

I might be getting my continuities crossed here, but weren't Echidnas somewhat nomadic anyway?

8 hours ago, Razule said:

I don't think they can even say Earth anymore. 

That's fine. The point is, they're more or less one in the same, name or no name.

[Bowbowis]

9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

In Sonic X Angel Island moved between Earth and Mobius.

If we assume it was somewhat based on cannon, this graph falls apart like a card pyramid.

Also I question Little Planet connections to SA1 (smalll reference) and Mania (illusions and dimensional travel being canon powers of Phantom Ruby)

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Angel Island have a specific reason to be moving between worlds in X? One which doesn't apply to the games?

I didn't include every connection for every game, just the major ones. For instance, Cream's house appears in both Advance 3 and Rush. Even if you remove Angel Island from the chart, only Advance and Rivals are moved to the unconfirmed category.

Even if it's just a small reference it doesn't change the fact that a human NPC in SA1 mentions the events of both CD and Sonic 3, which would be strange if two worlds had been established cannon since Adventure as Iizuka claims. Even if you knock it out you only move Sonic 4 and CD into the unconfirmed category.

Something tells me that when SEGA decided some games were set on an "Animal world" CD, Advance, Advance 2, Rivals, Sonic 4, Free Riders, and Mania was not the set of games they were thinking of.

Bottom line: Occam's Razor is a beautiful thing. Don't fuck with it. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

23 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Angel Island have a specific reason to be moving between worlds in X? One which doesn't apply to the games?

(...)

Even if it's just a small reference it doesn't change the fact that a human NPC in SA1 mentions the events of both CD and Sonic 3,

It doesn't? Honestly, it's hard to tell, seeing how little we know about two-worlds in games.

But you got me about NPCs, I really didn't knew about that. I don't suppose you have some video or something like that?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

I didn't include every connection for every game, just the major ones. For instance, Cream's house appears in both Advance 3 and Rush. Even if you remove Angel Island from the chart, only Advance and Rivals are moved to the unconfirmed category.

Something tells me that when SEGA decided some games were set on an "Animal world" CD, Advance, Advance 2, Rivals, Sonic 4, Free Riders, and Mania was not the set of games they were thinking of.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of those would've been in the animal part of the world. The Classic Trilogy(& CD) and the Advance Games clearly take place in the Zones, even with Eggman's Chaos Control shenanigans shuffling things around. By extension, Rush 1 mostly takes place there as well, stray GUN carrier notwithstanding.

 

 

The only significant discrepancies are Rivals(since I don't much about the locales there aside from maybe Onyx Island) and any of the Riders games(which could just as easily take place in either, given the sudden futuristic setting and the lack of populace to confirm either way)..

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

 

Even if it's just a small reference it doesn't change the fact that a human NPC in SA1 mentions the events of both CD and Sonic 3

Really now?

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of those would've been in the animal part of the world. The Classic Trilogy(& CD) and the Advance Games clearly take place in the Zones, even with Eggman's Chaos Control shenanigans shuffling things around. By extension, Rush 1 mostly takes place there as well, stray GUN carrier notwithstanding.

 

 

The only significant discrepancies are Rivals(since I don't much about the locales there aside from maybe Onyx Island) and any of the Riders games(which could just as easily take place in either, given the sudden futuristic setting and the lack of populace to confirm either way)..

Really now?

Yes, he mentions little planet.

[Bowbowis]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

It doesn't? Honestly, it's hard to tell, seeing how little we know about two-worlds in games.

I'm pretty sure it was a plot point in Sonic X that Angel Island belonged on Sonic's planet and it's appearing on Earth was a sign that the two worlds were were gradually collapsing in on each other. This clearly isn't the case in the games, given the presence of Echidna ruins on Earth.

 

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of those would've been in the animal part of the world. The Classic Trilogy(& CD) and the Advance Games clearly take place in the Zones, even with Eggman's Chaos Control shenanigans shuffling things around. By extension, Rush 1 mostly takes place there as well, stray GUN carrier notwithstanding.

By that logic Special Stages are all on Earth because the levels in the Adventure games are called "Stages". The term "Zone" only has relevance in reference to the game's structure, it's not part of the area's proper name and has nothing to do with the worlds geography. Notice that whenever a classic stage shows up in a game where the other levels aren't referred to as Zones it almost always drops the "Zone" from it's name. The classic stages in Generations are called Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary; not Green Hill Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, and Sky Sanctuary Zone.

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

By extension, Rush 1 mostly takes place there as well, stray GUN carrier notwithstanding.

So let me get this straight. In a game revolving around inter-dimensional travel and jumping between two worlds the villains, with the heroes in pursuit, decide to jump over to a third dimension/blast off to another planet to harass a random aircraft carrier, then travel back to the other world, having accomplished nothing of significance, and this never comes up in dialogue nor is it reflected on the world map. Makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

The only significant discrepancies are Rivals(since I don't much about the locales there aside from maybe Onyx Island) and any of the Riders games(which could just as easily take place in either, given the sudden futuristic setting and the lack of populace to confirm either way)..

Onyx Island is explicitly a future version of Angel Island sent back in time by Nega. Again, only time travel is mentioned, not inter-dimensional or inter-planetary travel. Meanwhile, Zero Gravity flat out states that "the international security organization, G.U.N." is investigating the MetoTech robot's rampage and Babylon Garden features prominently in the climax. Yet again, much is made of the Babylonians being aliens who crash landed on the planet, yet there is no indication whatsoever that any of the other characters came from another world. 

 

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

But you got me about NPCs, I really didn't knew about that. I don't suppose you have some video or something like that?

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Really now?

It wasn't in the final English translation but it was in the Japanese version and the E3 Demo. If SA1 was always supposed to take place on an entirely different planet from the Classics nobody told Sonic Team.

http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/161663191085/kurohaai-click-on-pictures-to-see-the

http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/161894919845/oh-yeah-if-anyones-wondering-the-e3-trials

 

Conclusion: Iizuka is so comfortable making blatantly false and/or misinformed statements he should consider a position with the Trump administration.

[Diogenes]

How's that kid even supposed to know about what happened on the Little Planet and Angel Island.

Like ok the Little Planet being chained up and mechanized and the Death Egg falling and launching again could've plausibly been recognized by the world at large, but I'm not sure how anyone not on the Little Planet would know it was a potentially world-threatening incident, or how anyone would know about Angel Island at all (especially when the explorers don't seem to know dick about it even when it's landed right next to them).

...also maybe they decided on the two worlds thing after those lines had been written, and that's why they were eventually removed.

[MainJP]

20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...also maybe they decided on the two worlds thing after those lines had been written, and that's why they were eventually removed.

 

Then why not remove that dialogue from the International and Deluxe releases?

[Diogenes]

Laziness, apathy, miscommunication, could be any number of things. Or maybe I am just wrong about this, who knows.

[Wraith]

30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How's that kid even supposed to know about what happened on the Little Planet and Angel Island.

Like ok the Little Planet being chained up and mechanized and the Death Egg falling and launching again could've plausibly been recognized by the world at large, but I'm not sure how anyone not on the Little Planet would know it was a potentially world-threatening incident, or how anyone would know about Angel Island at all (especially when the explorers don't seem to know dick about it even when it's landed right next to them).

Amy or Tails could have just told people what happened you know

[Bowbowis]

37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How's that kid even supposed to know about what happened on the Little Planet and Angel Island.

Like ok the Little Planet being chained up and mechanized and the Death Egg falling and launching again could've plausibly been recognized by the world at large, but I'm not sure how anyone not on the Little Planet would know it was a potentially world-threatening incident, or how anyone would know about Angel Island at all (especially when the explorers don't seem to know dick about it even when it's landed right next to them).

It seems Sonic's exploits have become pretty common knowledge around Station Square by the time of SA1 (possibly thanks to Amy). Many of the NPCs in SA1 treat Sonic, Tails, and Amy like local celebrities and the citizens of Station Square clearly know who Eggman is, given their reaction to him in the cutscene preceding the Egg Walker battle. Additionally, the news report Eggman watches in SA2 refers to Sonic as a "world renowned hero", though whether he was that famous during SA1 or became that famous because of the Perfect Chaos incident is unclear.

EDIT: Sonic's previous adventures not being well know outside of Station Square until after SA1 would explain why the archaeologists have no clue what to make of Angel Island.

 

37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...also maybe they decided on the two worlds thing after those lines had been written, and that's why they were eventually removed.

The line was left in the final Japanese version though, so it was more likely removed by the localizers, who had far more leeway with SA1's script than they did with any other game until Colors came along.

[DabigRG]

.

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

 

By that logic Special Stages are all on Earth because the levels in the Adventure games are called "Stages". The term "Zone" only has relevance in reference to the game's structure, it's not part of the area's proper name and has nothing to do with the worlds geography. Notice that whenever a classic stage shows up in a game where the other levels aren't referred to as Zones it almost always drops the "Zone" from it's name. The classic stages in Generations are called Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary; not Green Hill Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, and Sky Sanctuary Zone.

 

Admittedly, that's me slightly blending the Archie comics logic in with the Games' logic.

I stand by what I was getting at.

 

Also, The Special Stage(s) are clearly weird dimensions/portals/gateways unto themselves.

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

So let me get this straight. In a game revolving around inter-dimensional travel and jumping between two worlds the villains, with the heroes in pursuit, decide to jump over to a third dimension/blast off to another planet to harass a random aircraft carrier, then travel back to the other world, having accomplished nothing of significance, and this never comes up in dialogue nor is it reflected on the world map. Makes sense.

 

Sure, let's go with that.

 

Spoiler

Emphasis on the terms Aircraft and Carrier. 

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

 

Onyx Island is explicitly a future version of Angel Island sent back in time by Nega. Again, only time travel is mentioned, not inter-dimensional or inter-planetary travel. 

I know, that was my unspoken logic.

Neither did Rush, btw.

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

 

Meanwhile, Zero Gravity flat out states that "the international security organization, G.U.N." is investigating the MetoTech robot's rampage and Babylon Garden features prominently in the climax. Yet again, much is made of the Babylonians being aliens who crash landed on the planet, yet there is no indication whatsoever that any of the other characters came from another world. 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that line.

Well then, MeteoTech's locations, Megalo Station, and possibly some of the other tracks take place on Earth aka the human side of the World, I guess.

 

Didn't Babylon Garden warp, btw?

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

 

 

It wasn't in the final English translation but it was in the Japanese version and the E3 Demo.

http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/161663191085/kurohaai-click-on-pictures-to-see-the

http://speeps-highway.tumblr.com/post/161894919845/oh-yeah-if-anyones-wondering-the-e3-trials

Huh. I never knew about those lines. That's really neat.

 

Either way you choose to look at it, it think it's fair to reiterate that at least the latter is not bound to any particular place. 

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

Conclusion: Iizuka is so comfortable making blatantly false and/or misinformed statements he should consider a position with the Trump administration.

Eh, he's in charge of running things now after working there since the transition to 3d, so he's kinda got the say of things, for better or worse.

50 minutes ago, Josh said:

Amy  could have just told people what happened you know

I can believe that.

[Razule]

If we think about it as an internal design thing, nonhuman world games are games without humans, and human world games are games with humans. As simple as that. Unleashed has humans so it's on the human world, Colors to Lost World takes place in other places but it doesn't have humans so it's the nonhuman world. Forces continues to not have humans so it's still on the nonhuman world. No humans = Not the human world. And details where they have elements of each other fall under "cross over" between them. Whatever that means.

[Nestor]

I'd put my money on the whole two worlds thing beginning to form around the time of Sonic X; whether it had always been an idea bouncing around that was never implemented or whether it only emerged then, it would not surprise me at all if Sonic X was the catalyst for this direction.

That said, it does seem like the Adventure games at least were designed on a one world principle, with the point at which Sonic team actually deciding on two worlds definitely being a thing coming at some point afterwards, possibly even as late as Colors.

[Nestor]

On 7/5/2018 at 9:29 PM, Shadowlax said:

1) Gun never assigns them to eggman, like ever. Especially in the comics even in the debut game they spend more time trying to frame sonic for their crimes than actually giving half a shit about what eggman is doing. So for them to now give a shit about Eggman in another world, seems HELLA weird. Shadow's investigations into what eggman was doing or caring what he was up to was kinda all him. Even now.

Just because we haven't been explicitly shown them doing it before doesn't mean they never have or never will - indeed, it would be incredibly strange for them to not try to keep tabs on the man who blew up half the moon and threatened the entire planet with destruction.

That doesn't mean they'll always send Shadow to do it every time, but it certainly does leave the option open and thus gives a rationale for him being in Sonic's world occasionally.

On 7/5/2018 at 9:29 PM, Shadowlax said:

2) That's actually different because, while yes knuckles is guarding a thing. The thing is generally in one place and you can make the argument " well he's proactively guarding a thing " . I don't really think shadow investigating eggman or anyone in this world is really proactively protecting earth considering you have to go through a whole lot of fuckery to even get between worlds. And it doesn't seem like eggman bothered to try and take that world over again...if he ever did. Two worlds makes canon weird. But that's not even like, the issue, the issue is that he promised maria to protect earth. Which means different to him I would imagine. The protect earth made sense when it was a single world, but now its two worlds I don't see why shadow would care outside of extremely grand situations where they literally need to call in a favor. Which explains things like forces. But shadow's a popular character and I assume especially when more books media in general come into play he'll be around for a lot of situations that aren't really massive though it would explain away most games. They are gonna have to at some point explain why shadow isn't doing that thing he promised that one person he cared about a lot he promised to do. Or , like I think they are gonna do ( now sooner than later ) sort of retcon shadow's... entire everything.

Considering that Eggman is Earth's number one threat at this point though, I'd argue that going after Eggman would be considered 'proactively' guarding Earth and fulfilling Maria's wish.

On 7/5/2018 at 9:29 PM, Shadowlax said:

Why? Like at least when it was one world you could suggest " oh hey i found some ruins " or some shit. Like how did even know at this point to make shadow a hedgehog. 

Gerald's explicitly visited and researched ancient sites and cultures (he's obviously been to Angel Island and knew of the Fourth Great Civilisation), it would make sense him visiting a world with strong ties to the Chaos Emeralds.

As for why a hedgehog, one assumes he went through numerous different Earth and Sonic's world genomes to find the one best to become the ultimate lifeform. Since apparently male hedgehogs are able to most fully use the power of the Chaos Emeralds naturally and the ultimate lifeform project required their use, it may be that hedgehogs were the best fit genetically for his experiments.

 

[Whoops, messed up my quoting and double posted...]

[Almar]

7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I might be getting my continuities crossed here, but weren't Echidnas somewhat nomadic anyway?

They were shown as conquerers in Sonic Adventure One ala the Aztecs, Ottomans, etc. Not really nomads.

6 hours ago, Nestor said:

As for why a hedgehog, one assumes he went through numerous different Earth and Sonic's world genomes to find the one best to become the ultimate lifeform. Since apparently male hedgehogs are able to most fully use the power of the Chaos Emeralds naturally and the ultimate lifeform project required their use, it may be that hedgehogs were the best fit genetically for his experiments.

The Truth Of 50 Years Ago doesn't mention travel between worlds.

[Nestor]

12 hours ago, Almar said:

They were shown as conquerers in Sonic Adventure One ala the Aztecs, Ottomans, etc. Not really nomads.

That's true with regard to the Knuckles Clan at the time of Pachacamac - it's possible however that their ancient ancestors were a nomadic diaspora and travelled between the worlds before ultimately settling in what would become the Mystic Ruins.

12 hours ago, Almar said:

The Truth Of 50 Years Ago doesn't mention travel between worlds.

Indeed - but then it goes into very little detail about the mechanics of the research at all other than it was based around Chaos Emeralds; it also doesn't mention Gerald visiting Angel Island, but he clearly did considering the obvious similarity of the Eclipse Cannon core to the Master Emerald shrine. Gerald may not have had to even do the leg work himself - the ARK may already have had samples of each of the genomes from Sonic's world for Gerald to work with.

[Bowbowis]

On 7/6/2018 at 8:40 AM, DabigRG said:

I might be getting my continuities crossed here, but weren't Echidnas somewhat nomadic anyway?

Walled cities, stone buildings, elaborate monuments, and decorative murals generally aren't associated with nomadic cultures.

For the record, this belongs to a nomadic civilization:

This is belonged to a sedentary civilization:

Can you spot the difference?

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Walled cities, stone buildings, elaborate monuments, and decorative murals generally aren't associated with nomadic cultures.

For the record, this belongs to a nomadic civilization:

This is belonged to a sedentary civilization:

Can you spot the difference?

Huh. 

Okay then.

 

That just raises more questions about Wild Canyon and Regal Ruin Zone though.

[Bowbowis]

15 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Huh. 

Okay then.

 

That just raises more questions about Wild Canyon and Regal Ruin Zone though.

Wild Canyon doesn't have any known ties to the echidnas, there's simply no dialogue or imagery which would suggest a connection. Furthermore it's strongly implied (and all but confirmed by their respective recaps) that Knuckles and Rouge have traveled quite a distance from Angel Island by the time we catch up with them in SA2.

As for Regal Ruin, we don't really know anything about it's location. It could be part of Sandopolis for all we know. Even if it's not on Angel Island there's no reason the Echidnas couldn't have more than one city (in fact it would be kind of weird for them not to, given Pachamac's apparent thirst for conquest). Of course, as a Classic era spinoff, Sonic R's canonicity is questionable at best.

Take it from an anthropology major: The fact that there are surviving ruins at all tells us the Knuckles Tribe was well established on the landscape. They're weren't picking up and moving every few days/weeks like a nomadic tribe would.

[Almar]

The desert stages in Adventure Two have Echidna statues.

[A person, that exists]

Tbh, I don't care about any of this.

Sonic is a stupid jumpy-game about animals that jump on ladybugs and bees, and therefore, canon isn't the main focus, so, really, who cares? Interpret it as you want, seeing how the games never openly admit that there are in fact two worlds.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, A person, that exists said:

Tbh, I don't care about any of this.

Sonic is a stupid jumpy-game about animals that jump on ladybugs and bees, and therefore, canon isn't the main focus, so, really, who cares? Interpret it as you want, seeing how the games never openly admit that there are in fact two worlds.

Because its fun to talk about and for a while, they liked telling stories that worked in a world. 

So some people care to talk about, hence why this thread exists. 

If you are so miserable and don't care, then just don't care. Why even post?

[A person, that exists]

18 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because its fun to talk about and for a while, they liked telling stories that worked in a world. 

So some people care to talk about, hence why this thread exists. 

If you are so miserable and don't care, then just don't care. Why even post?

I just think that complaining about something, that's not even directly present in the games is kinda weird.

Iidzuka has a tendency to lie and retcon things. That's just the type of guy he is.