Do you aggree with the Two-worlds??

[Multikaris]

5 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

I just think that complaining about something, that's not even directly present in the games is kinda weird.

Iidzuka has a tendency to lie and retcon things. That's just the type of guy he is.

Yeah. Remember the “self-contained bubbles” thing from 2013?

[Razule]

7 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

Iidzuka has a tendency to lie and retcon things. That's just the type of guy he is.

Yeah, like how he lied about Classic Sonic being from another dimension. It's not like his decisions have any impact on the series or anything.

[Your Vest Friend]

You can take Adventure itself as already starting the process when it made the assertion that classic events happened but not as directly depicted in the classic games (using their modern looks being the main point of contention).

Sonic 4 also fits into this if it's the modern equivalent of Mania (ie the follow-up to the events of the modern counterpart to the classic games). 

[DabigRG]

16 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Wild Canyon doesn't have any known ties to the echidnas, there's simply no dialogue or imagery which would suggest a connection. Furthermore it's strongly implied (and all but confirmed by their respective recaps) that Knuckles and Rouge have traveled quite a distance from Angel Island by the time we catch up with them in SA2.

I might've been confusing Wild Canyon for something else. but I'm pretty sure there is a stage with Echidna statues in one of the Adventure games. 

16 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

As for Regal Ruin, we don't really know anything about it's location. It could be part of Sandopolis for all we know. Even if it's not on Angel Island there's no reason the Echidnas couldn't have more than one city (in fact it would be kind of weird for them not to, given Pachamac's apparent thirst for conquest). Of course, as a Classic era spinoff, Sonic R's canonicity is questionable at best.

Oh right, Sandopolis Zone! I forgot about that place--probably because I don't play Sonic 3 much.

Also, Sonic R is indeed canon.

15 hours ago, Almar said:

The desert stages in Adventure Two have Echidna statues.

Okay, Sand Ocean; that's what I was thinking of. Thanks!

9 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

I just think that complaining about something, that's not even directly present in the games is kinda weird.
 

That's fair.

1 hour ago, VEDJ-F said:

You can take Adventure itself as already starting the process when it made the assertion that classic events happened but not as directly depicted in the classic games (using their modern looks being the main point of contention).

What's funny about that is that, Two Worlds aside, they could've just still used the Sonic R models for those flashbacks if they wanted to.

[Almar]

13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Because its fun to talk about and for a while, they liked telling stories that worked in a world. 

So some people care to talk about, hence why this thread exists. 

If you are so miserable and don't care, then just don't care. Why even post?

More to the point, Team Izuka DOES try to present the illusion that Sonic's setting is one with continuity and consequences (see Chaos in Forces and how with counting the comic him apparently being on the side of Eggman is meant to be a surprise ) for all the talk about self-contained bubbles. It comes off as them wanting to make Sonic like Mario (in that he's an "actor" who plays "many roles")* but at the same time want to take advantage of connections to past games for fanservice so it's sloppy.

*It also should be noted that depending on the producer and branch of Mario we do have a bit of continuity (ala the Mario and Luigi games not just acknowledging their earlier games but even having character arcs for not just Luigi but Bowser also)

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

You can take Adventure itself as already starting the process when it made the assertion that classic events happened but not as directly depicted in the classic games (using their modern looks being the main point of contention).

Sonic 4 also fits into this if it's the modern equivalent of Mania (ie the follow-up to the events of the modern counterpart to the classic games). 

Sonic Adventure One not only has references to the Classic designs (Hedgehog Hammer) but was considered to have the Classic designs. Besides, Generations in both US and JP have Classic Sonic be treated as the past Sonic.

[MadmanRB]

Personally I have ignored anything from the official word of god here, its become too messy and convoluted.

The official Sonic continuity sucks anyhow, no rules and definition.

I rather have my own canon

[Kazhnuz]

I may be one of the few person that really like the two-world… xD I just feel it's kinda useless as it is if they just use it as a way to explain some plothole, and aren't using it. My vision is that Sonic never really had a "world", and with the different canon we got a lot of different interpretation of what we could get from the game. TBH, we got :

- Sonic's world is another world (sometimes called Mobius), with funny animals and stuff. The so-called "american canon".

- Sonic's world is Earth. The vision of Naka, IIRC, I kinda remember him saying something like that, when talking about the "true place" like Christmas Island and stuff. It's basically the vision in the Sonic Adventure, and even in Shadow the Hedgehog Japan is mentionned.

- Sonic's world is "Not-Earth". Think Unleashed.

And there there is the two possibility to fuse their stuff, the "one-world" and the "two-world". Personally I don't really feel one superior to the other, as both offer some possibilities and have some limits, and both are useless if not really used. The reason why I prefer the two-world thought, is because I'm more interested in its own story possibilities, that could be really sci-fi as I love it. And I must admit that I don't really care about some plot-hole, when to begin with there have been no consideration between how works the timeline and the universe in Sonic the Hedgehog.

But the problem is that I'm pretty sure that future game won't really respect it :V

 

And I must admit that I really like the idea of calling "Earth" the human world and "Mobius" the animal world, as an headcanon

[Marco9966]

19 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

I may be one of the few person that really like the two-world… xD I just feel it's kinda useless as it is if they just use it as a way to explain some plothole, and aren't using it. My vision is that Sonic never really had a "world", and with the different canon we got a lot of different interpretation of what we could get from the game. TBH, we got :

- Sonic's world is another world (sometimes called Mobius), with funny animals and stuff. The so-called "american canon".

- Sonic's world is Earth. The vision of Naka, IIRC, I kinda remember him saying something like that, when talking about the "true place" like Christmas Island and stuff. It's basically the vision in the Sonic Adventure, and even in Shadow the Hedgehog Japan is mentionned.

- Sonic's world is "Not-Earth". Think Unleashed.

And there there is the two possibility to fuse their stuff, the "one-world" and the "two-world". Personally I don't really feel one superior to the other, as both offer some possibilities and have some limits, and both are useless if not really used. The reason why I prefer the two-world thought, is because I'm more interested in its own story possibilities, that could be really sci-fi as I love it. And I must admit that I don't really care about some plot-hole, when to begin with there have been no consideration between how works the timeline and the universe in Sonic the Hedgehog.

But the problem is that I'm pretty sure that future game won't really respect it :V

 

And I must admit that I really like the idea of calling "Earth" the human world and "Mobius" the animal world, as an headcanon

You prefer 2 planets, but I prefer 2 continents. Saves us the trouble of explaining SA1: Mystic Ruins is animal continent (Tails,Big, Echidna civilization lives there, and Angel Island is above it, and the human explorers are completely lost there).

Or have the station square train be the gateway between the 2 dimensions, the main thing is Mystic Ruins should be considered animal world.

[Kazhnuz]

I feel that "two continent" lack several of the thematic that the two-world could add, and doesn't solve the problem than the two-world could (i.e. GUN in Forces) -- even if for me explaining plothole isn't really interesting. For me it lacks both in interest and usefulness.

And TBH, I'm more interested in what both setting could offer than to really "explain" old games. The continuity and the world were already messed up : there were no Sonic world, just ad hoc thingy done for the game. Location changes all the time, the look of the planet even wasn't the same from a game to another… For me, the question of the world really is "going forward, what could be done". Then they can try to make the past fit, maybe with some retcon or explanation, or just by referencing what is useful to them (what they do a lot).

And that's why I'm kinda cynic about all this : because as long as they don't enforce this rules and create a real world with it, it's useless. Basically, the real situation of Sonic isn't "one world" or "two world". It's more "zero world". :V

[Marco9966]

3 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

I feel that "two continent" lack several of the thematic that the two-world could add, and doesn't solve the problem than the two-world could (i.e. GUN in Forces) -- even if for me explaining plothole isn't really interesting. For me it lacks both in interest and usefulness.

And TBH, I'm more interested in what both setting could offer than to really "explain" old games. The continuity and the world were already messed up : there were no Sonic world, just ad hoc thingy done for the game. Location changes all the time, the look of the planet even wasn't the same from a game to another… For me, the question of the world really is "going forward, what could be done".

And that's why I'm kinda cynic about all this : because as long as they don't enforce this rules and create a real world with it, it's useless. Basically, the real situation of Sonic isn't "one world" or "two world". It's more "zero world". :V

You seem really passionate about 2 world I think I can accept it as long as it's just tiny references, or just having the station square train hop on between mystic ruins (animals dimension) and human world, so easily that it just looks like one world.

[MadmanRB]

i dunno the 2 world thing is a band aid on a broken leg, or in this case a band aid on stage 4 pancreatic cancer metastasized to the brain, liver and heart

[Kazhnuz]

18 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

You seem really passionate about 2 world I think I can accept it as long as it's just tiny references, or just having the station square train hop on between mystic ruins (animals dimension) and human world, so easily that it just looks like one world. 

I must admit that I prefer stories that really use their own setting and universe, but I think that we are falling in mere preferences in storytelling, and not really discussing both settings xD

And you should know me by now, I'm passionate each time I debate on something. And I would add that you are the one that opened this debate. 

[Salamander]

My view is that an integrated explanation of all the details of the Classic status quo would be to say that the setting is a fantastic version of Earth where humans live in cities and animals live in the wilds and countryside, with a few exceptions in either direction (e.g. Eggman).  I'd also suggest additionally that all animals have anthro aspects to some degree, since animals and main characters had more similar proportions in Classic artwork, and they were often shown engaging in human-like activities; and so there would be no need for an intermediate category to explain the main characters, who only become more obviously humanoid in the Modern era.

[Almar]

On 7/16/2018 at 7:12 AM, Kazhnuz said:

And that's why I'm kinda cynic about all this : because as long as they don't enforce this rules and create a real world with it, it's useless. Basically, the real situation of Sonic isn't "one world" or "two world". It's more "zero world". :V

It serves the dual role of handwaving the shifting visuals and tones of the series while also writing out the human elements that the Adventure Era introduced (especially GUN). The only source  suggesting it wasn't just brutally shoved in around Sonic Colors is from Ian Flynn's comment on the subject (saying that Two Worlds was "there since Sonic Adventure"). And I suspect he misinterpreted something he heard and combined it with a headcanon he had as a Western fan.

[TheUltimateHedgy]

Two worlds? Why tho?

I mean, there clearly ARE humans in the MegaDrive/GameGear games (Where would Eggman come from?), and the amount of actually intelligent anthropomorphic animals in those games is surprisingly small (You only have Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, the Chaotix, Bean, Bark and Nack). The later games don't really retcon much, and the presence of humans isn't all that jarring (Except for Sonic 2006, where they went a little too far with the realism, instead of going for the more anime-esque art style like in the Adventure games). So, yeah, I all out for one singular continuity, until any of the games will show direct support to the "Two worlds" thing, of course.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I'm fine with the multiple world concept. But if they are going to stick with it, then I feel they should bring it more into practice.

I especially like and prefer Classic Sonic being separated into it's own canon instead of trying to retcon the classic designs as young versions of the modern designs which I always hated the idea of honestly... News Flash! both Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are suppose to be 15 in age. They are just different art designs for the same characters. Personally I saw the storyline in Sonic Generations as meta humor when they call classic Sonic his past self... Because Classic is literally Sonic's 90s design which does technically make it his past self... not that he is any younger in character age. However even if it wasn't suppose to be meta humor... I prefer the new take on them being from separate dimensions AKA separate canons. I don't feel the need to forcefully lore tie everything in the franchise together.

[Marco9966]

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I'm fine with the multiple world concept. But if they are going to stick with it, then I feel they should bring it more into practice.

I especially like and prefer Classic Sonic being separated into it's own canon instead of trying to retcon the classic designs as young versions of the modern designs which I always hated the idea of honestly... News Flash! both Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are suppose to be 15 in age. They are just different art designs for the same characters. Personally I saw the storyline in Sonic Generations as meta humor when they call classic Sonic his past self... Because Classic is literally Sonic's 90s design which does technically make it his past self... not that he is any younger in character age. However even if it wasn't suppose to be meta humor... I prefer the new take on them being from separate dimensions AKA separate canons. I don't feel the need to forcefully lore tie everything in the franchise together.

But Classic and Modern have too many common story elements, and many modern games refer to past elements, either moderatly (SA1, Sonic Heroes), or excessively (Sonic Forces).

[Kazhnuz]

It's not because there is a separated universe that some adventures similar to the main game can't have happened. ( I know that the "split timeline theory" is more popular, but personally I'm more for the "some equivalent happened in the Modern timeline" , even if I think that ultimately it doesn't matter) And outside of the main game (I count CD as a main game), no classic game have been referenced, except Chaotix, even if the character have been essentially rebuilt and lost their connection to Knuckles, making them basically different characters. And even in the main game, the references are often really vague about what exactly happened (but that's because Sonic have never been really timeline-heavy), or reference to some levels.

I think that there are way more element that can be used to differentiate the two sub-franchise for me that element that make them the same (especially in term of ambiance and tone). If they are doing it right, they could create to really different franchise with the element they have in both classic and modern Sonic (that's why I want a comic-book with Classic Sonic, Flynn could do a lot of fun things especially if he begin to use again the Great Battle Kuku army and stuff like that).

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

The correct answer is: Sonic Team does not at all care about the continuity so neither should we. 

If they ever decide to really, seriously clean things up for the sonic timeline and establish some consistency between the worlds, then our gripes will be worth having. But right now they're not. And throughout almost the entire history of this series they havent been either. They do not prioritize it and never have. 

People have been complaining about this even before the existence of sonic adventure and they STILL havent bothered to fix it. They'll tell you something different each time you ask (Iizuka) because it is largely irrelevant to how they see their product.

 

Note I'm not upset at them. It just is what it is. Some franchises need it, others can get by fine. I personally would like to have a fixed continuity but also dont think sonic needs one to be successful. As in, it is not on the list of major problems holding the franchise back.

 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

7 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

But Classic and Modern have too many common story elements, and many modern games refer to past elements, either moderatly (SA1, Sonic Heroes), or excessively (Sonic Forces).

Having some common story elements doesn't really mean much of anything, especially the stuff that was done before SEGA decided to split Sonic apart into 2 sub series. Most of the modern games didn't do more then lightly reference parts of the classic games at best. And it's easy enough to say that Modern Sonic just had a roughly similar past to Classic Sonic... but still was never classic Sonic himself or a older version of him. My preference is if SEGA wants to retcon anything farther then they should ignore those minor classic game references in the old modern games and just keep allowing both Sonics to be their own thing from this point onward.

And not sure what your point about Sonic Forces is suppose to be considering that was the game which made it fact they are from separate dimensions/canons now.

[Marco9966]

29 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Having some common story elements doesn't really mean much of anything, especially the stuff that was done before SEGA decided to split Sonic apart into 2 sub series. Most of the modern games didn't do more then lightly reference parts of the classic games at best. And it's easy enough to say that Modern Sonic just had a roughly similar past to Classic Sonic... but still was never classic Sonic himself or a older version of him. My preference is if SEGA wants to retcon anything farther then they should ignore those minor classic game references in the old modern games and just keep allowing both Sonics to be their own thing from this point onward.

And not sure what your point about Sonic Forces is suppose to be considering that was the game which made it fact they are from separate dimensions/canons now.

Green hill, Chemical Plant, Death Egg "rebuilt"...

Oh and I forgot SA1-2, Lost World and Sonic Runners with the animals in the badniks.

Also Sonic Lost World's over the top classic design.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

5 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Green hill, Chemical Plant, Death Egg "rebuilt"...

Oh and I forgot SA1-2, Lost World and Sonic Runners with the animals in the badniks.

Also Sonic Lost World's over the top classic design.

Yeah I'm aware of all of that and more, but like I said. if SEGA needed to they can just explain those things away now by saying their worlds and history are roughly similar to each other but are still different.

[Kazhnuz]

TBH, except the rebuild of the Death Egg, not are really important story elements xD Design and basic elements aren't really important story point.

And having some common elements aren't really a problem. If anything, if done right this split could lead to less "classic in modern" things and start the Modern universe to reuse more element that were proper to it or to become more developed.

 

And I think we are getting less on topic, because IIRC this topic was about the two-world (human vs animals) and not the two-timeline thing xD

[SonicWind]

I'm not really a fan of the "two worlds" thing. I just pretend this isn't real and that all of the games take place on the same planet, just in places with higher concentrations of humans or animals.

[Marco9966]

6 minutes ago, SonicWind said:

I'm not really a fan of the "two worlds" thing. I just pretend this isn't real and that all of the games take place on the same planet, just in places with higher concentrations of humans or animals.

Exactly!